The underlying logic of the GoT TV show: surprise

[Ser Gareth]

Show and books.  Both have been trading on Eddard's death for years.  In the books the main characters have plot armour thicker than any modern day tank!

[Roux]

3 minutes ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

 

As for the publishing of the books. I suspect money was paid to prevent their release before this and they will start to come out after the last episode airs. There is a lot of profit to be made by HBO this way. They get to be the first ones to call the game. Martin has finished them. He has published so many other books in between that it looks like he's farting around when in fact he is not.  Just my theory. 

Id buy that. 

I think the moment they traded Jeyne Pool for Sansa they just went rogue. It's still a good show, I really love it but this season is rushed and its knowing there's a deadline and theyre trying to bring everything back to the 'proper endings' they've cut out so many characters and changed so many stories that there's no room for anything to be on track. There's not time to do it all justice so they're losing too much and it's getting weaker. It's good, just not as good as it was. 

[Lord Lyman]

25 minutes ago, Crona said:

There are plenty:

The Tyrells still have to face trial for Margery, Loras took Dragonstone, Willas is in Highgarden and sending messages regarding the Ironborn and Garlan is dispatched to Hightowers. Old town is assaulted by Euron and both Euron and Hightowers may use magic in the battle. Mathis Rowan/Mace dispatched to take Storm’s End where Aegon is located. There is also a faceless man in Oldtown.

Dorne wants an alliance with Dany but Quentyn releases the dragons and his fate is currently unknown. However this may cause issues as Aegon also contacts Dorne for an alliance. There is also rogue knight that the Kingsguard is searching for and may uncover information for TOJ.

The Vale has not engaged in any warfare buy their Lord Protector is LF who is secretly planning to take WF. However the lords of the vale may be more difficult to control than he may of thought...

Davos/Manderly court and Davos sent to find Rickon 

Stannis is still alive and sent Justin Massey to Essos for sellswords because the IB backs Stannis now. 

Barristan is Hand to the Queen and fighting for Meeren with Victorian also coming to seek an alliance with Dany for Euron

These all may seem unnecessary but it is the fabric of the story. If these storylines were in the show, so much more of their actions would make sense. Even though the storylines are not finished, it’s easier to see the logic in our characters decisions throughout the story.

By including all that, you’ve just increased the cast budget and and probably pushed the show to 10+ seasons. GRRM has said that he believed his series to be unfilmable and given the changes in the show, I don’t believe he’s wrong. I think GRRM even said he had an offer to turn them into movies. Imagine a 2.5 hour GOT movie. 

[Crona]

3 minutes ago, Roux said:

Id buy that. 

I think the moment they traded Jeyne Pool for Sansa they just went rogue. It's still a good show, I really love it but this season is rushed and its knowing there's a deadline and theyre trying to bring everything back to the 'proper endings' they've cut out so many characters and changed so many stories that there's no room for anything to be on track. There's not time to do it all justice so they're losing too much and it's getting weaker. It's good, just not as good as it was. 

They rushed the story, and wanted to show Jon’s Caesar moment too early. They wanted to keep the watchers engaged without showing other storylines and to cut out the “fat” of the story. However this caused the characters to become hollow as their storylines stopped making sense such as Jorah getting grey scale or Sam going to Oldtown. It’s like they underestimated how smart their audience is and now it’s crap. 

[ummester]

42 minutes ago, Crona said:

There are plenty:

The Tyrells still have to face trial for Margery, Loras took Dragonstone, Willas is in Highgarden and sending messages regarding the Ironborn and Garlan is dispatched to Hightowers. Old town is assaulted by Euron and both Euron and Hightowers may use magic in the battle. Mathis Rowan/Mace dispatched to take Storm’s End where Aegon is located. There is also a faceless man in Oldtown.

Dorne wants an alliance with Dany but Quentyn releases the dragons and his fate is currently unknown. However this may cause issues as Aegon also contacts Dorne for an alliance. There is also rogue knight that the Kingsguard is searching for and may uncover information for TOJ.

The Vale has not engaged in any warfare buy their Lord Protector is LF who is secretly planning to take WF. However the lords of the vale may be more difficult to control than he may of thought...

Davos/Manderly court and Davos sent to find Rickon 

Stannis is still alive and sent Justin Massey to Essos for sellswords because the IB backs Stannis now. 

Barristan is Hand to the Queen and fighting for Meeren with Victorian also coming to seek an alliance with Dany for Euron

These all may seem unnecessary but it is the fabric of the story. If these storylines were in the show, so much more of their actions would make sense. Even though the storylines are not finished, it’s easier to see the logic in our characters decisions throughout the story.

Not all of these are characters already introduced in the first 4 seasons. Some of the plots are obvious tangents.

Really, Dorne could have been left out of the show and the books and not impacted the overall narrative. I like Arrianne (spelling) but accept she wasn't really important to the central story.

Unless the books are going to end drastically different from the show (if they ever do end) then anything involving Rickon and Stannis is pointless now.

I also liked the character of Victarion and admit the show totally butchered Euron - it doesn't mean that, overall, the Greyjoy's weren't a side plot purely for fleshing out Theon, Robb and other central characters.

I always thought FAegon was filler, even when reading it for the first time.

[Crona]

5 minutes ago, Lord Lyman said:

By including all that, you’ve just increased the cast budget and and probably pushed the show to 10+ seasons. GRRM has said that he believed his series to be unfilmable and given the changes in the show, I don’t believe he’s wrong. I think GRRM even said he had an offer to turn them into movies. Imagine a 2.5 hour GOT movie. 

Its not my job to understand their finances. This is their project that they have destroyed it and not having a big budget is a poor excuse for a bad story. Even if they took half of those stories, the show would have been improved.  

[ummester]

25 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Show and books.  Both have been trading on Eddard's death for years.  In the books the main characters have plot armour thicker than any modern day tank!

I don't know why everyone cites Ned's death at something so surprising and GoTs defining - in the show he was an obvious mentor/Obi Wan type character to all of the younger Starks. Exactly like Obi Wan or Gandalf in Moria, he had to be killed to develop the other characters. From never reading the books I realized Jon and Dany were the two characters on the most likely heroes journeys from the first TV episode. The central plot was never half as subversive or surprising as most think it is.

The surprising elements, for me, were side characters and plots. Jamie's hand being off cut and redemption arc. Bran eating Jojen. Obyren and Tyrion in season 4/Book 3. Tyrion as a character generally - at least in the first 4 seasons and 3 books.

[Ser Gareth]

8 minutes ago, Crona said:

Its not my job to understand their finances. This is their project that they have destroyed it and not having a big budget is a poor excuse for a bad story. Even if they took half of those stories, the show would have been improved.  

It's the biggest TV show there has ever been.  Not really sure how that is destroying it.  I'd say more blame lies with the author of the books who got rich and lost motivation to finish the tale in book form.

No one doubts the show would have been better had it had source material to draw from.  But it didn't.  So it had no choice but to go its own way.  And despite that, its popularity grows from season to season.

[Ser Gareth]

Just now, ummester said:

I don't know why everyone cites Ned's death at something so surprising and GoTs defining - in the show he was an obvious mentor/Obi Wan type character to all of the younger Starks. Exactly like Obi Wan or Gandalf in Moria, he had to be killed to develop the other characters. From never reading the books I realized Jon and Dany were the two characters on the most likely heroes journeys from the first TV episode. The central plot was never half as subversive or surprising as most think it is.

The surprising elements, for me, were side characters and plots. Jamie's hand being off cut and redemption arc. Bran eating Jojen. Obyren and Tyrion in season 4/Book 3. Tyrion as a character generally - at least in the first 4 seasons and 3 books.

It's a fair point.  People relate GRRM to not following tropes.  But he does.  AGOT is a great story (or at least the first three books were) but other than positioning a character into seemingly being the hero and then killing him off, there isn't much original about it.

[Crona]

11 minutes ago, ummester said:

Not all of these are characters already introduced in the first 4 seasons. Some of the plots are obvious tangents.

Really, Dorne could have been left out of the show and the books and not impacted the overall narrative. I like Arrianne (spelling) but accept she wasn't really important to the central story.

Unless the books are going to end drastically different from the show (if they ever do end) then anything involving Rickon and Stannis is pointless now.

I also liked the character of Victarion and admit the show totally butchered Euron - it doesn't mean that, overall, the Greyjoy's weren't a side plot purely for fleshing out Theon, Robb and other central characters.

I always thought FAegon was filler, even when reading it for the first time.

Oberyn was introduced in season 4 and Euron in season 6 I believe. Many fans who saw Alexander Saddig as Doran were excited for him even if they were casuals. So I don’t think introducing a new character later is a detriment.

No I think Dorne is essential in the books and was for the show. As Sansa is a stand in for Arianne, the story would have made more sense for Arianne disliking Dany rather than Sansa who doesn’t have a reason for disliking her.

Stannis arguably still has a huge contribution in the books, he would never burn his daughter, and he is not rushing in to fight to Ramsey like an idiot. He still holds Asha and Theon as hostages and he has the IB backing. Rickon is the only male heir the North knows about and they are not going to pick Jon over Rickon. Nor do I see Davos or Osha allowing Rickon in Ramsey’s hands.

Aegon is not filler, in fact Jon could be a stand in for Aegon right now as it would make more sense for Varys to set coup against Dany for Aegon rather than Jon. 

[Ser Gareth]

2 minutes ago, Crona said:

Oberyn was introduced in season 4 and Euron in season 6 I believe. Many fans who saw Alexander Saddig as Doran were excited for him even if they were casuals. So I don’t think introducing a new character later is a detriment.

No I think Dorne is essential in the books and was for the show. As Sansa is a stand in for Arianne, the story would have made more sense for Arianne disliking Dany rather than Sansa who doesn’t have a reason for disliking her.

Stannis arguably still has a huge contribution in the books, he would never burn his daughter, and he is not rushing in to fight to Ramsey like an idiot. He still holds Asha and Theon as hostages and he has the IB backing. Rickon is the only male heir the North knows about and they are not going to pick Jon over Rickon. Nor do I see Davos or Osha allowing Rickon in Ramsey’s hands.

Aegon is not filler, in fact Jon could be a stand in for Aegon right now as it would make more sense for Varys to set coup against Dany for Aegon rather than Jon. 

No way she is a stand in for Arianne.  Dorne's relevance in the books hinges on them supporting fAegon's claim to the crown, thus providing him with a larger army and being a bigger threat.

As fAegon was cut from the story, Arianne's role (along with Dorne) wasn't needed.

[Stark_in_Winterfell]

45 minutes ago, Roux said:

Id buy that. 

I think the moment they traded Jeyne Pool for Sansa they just went rogue. It's still a good show, I really love it but this season is rushed and its knowing there's a deadline and theyre trying to bring everything back to the 'proper endings' they've cut out so many characters and changed so many stories that there's no room for anything to be on track. There's not time to do it all justice so they're losing too much and it's getting weaker. It's good, just not as good as it was. 

Agreed. They dithered around a little too much in earlier seasons and now they have been going on long enough the audience is not hanging on. So they have to get really economical and finish stuff. 

[Crona]

19 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

It's the biggest TV show there has ever been.  Not really show how that is destroying it.  I'd say more blame lies with the author of the books who got rich and lost motivation to finish the tale in book form.

No one doubts the show would have been better had it had source material to draw from.  But it didn't.  So it had no choice but to go its own way.  And despite that, its popularity grows from season to season.

There are plenty of crap shows who have a large following that doesn’t mean anything.

You can blame George all you want but he was the one that made the show watchable and the only reason most still watch because of the writing and story that came from George rather than anything D&D made. 

 

[Lord Lyman]

20 minutes ago, Crona said:

Its not my job to understand their finances. This is their project that they have destroyed it and not having a big budget is a poor excuse for a bad story. Even if they took half of those stories, the show would have been improved.  

Not having a big budget is an excellent excuse to cutting out those story lines.  How many show-only fans were confused with the current number of characters and storylines and you want to add in more?

[Crona]

5 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

No way she is a stand in for Arianne.  Dorne's relevance in the books hinges on them supporting fAegon's claim to the crown, thus providing him with a larger army and being a bigger threat.

As fAegon was cut from the story, Arianne's role (along with Dorne) wasn't needed.

I guess Jorah is going to grey scale in the books and Sansa is marrying Ramsey too. Cause Jeyne’s story is not in the show and Jon Con doesn’t exist. 

This Targ vs Targ business has nothing to do with the Starks. It is Dany vs Aegon and Arianne and Tyrion will be key players in the civil war between them.  

[Crona]

7 minutes ago, Lord Lyman said:

Not having a big budget is an excellent excuse to cutting out those story lines.  How many show-only fans were confused with the current number of characters and storylines and you want to add in more?

We can agree to disagree. For me I don’t think casuals are as forgetful as you may think.

[Ser Gareth]

5 minutes ago, Crona said:

I guess Jorah is going to grey scale in the books and Sansa is marrying Ramsey too. Cause Jeyne’s story is not in the show and Jon Con doesn’t exist. 

This Targ vs Targ business has nothing to do with the Starks. It is Dany vs Aegon and Arianne and Tyrion will be key players in the civil war between them.  

I never said it had anything to do with the Starks?

The show has done away with whole plotlines and condensed plotlines into one character a few times.  Where the plotline has been completely done away with, we now know it holds very little relevance to the main story of ASOIAF.

Arianne is just another filler character whilst GRRM tries to sort out (or doesn't, given the fact we are 8 years and counting) how to get around the abandonment of the five year gap.

[Ser Gareth]

16 minutes ago, Crona said:

There are plenty of crap shows who have a large following that doesn’t mean anything.

You can blame George all you want but he was the one that made the show watchable and the only reason most still watch because of the writing and story that came from George rather than anything D&D made. 

 

You are arguing to yourself here.

Surely what is crap and what is not crap is purely subjective?

And I do blame GRRM but I also acknowledge that without his works AGOT wouldn't have gotten off the ground in the first place.  But I also acknowledge that without D&D I'd never have got some kind of ending of the story and I became bored of book speculation well over a decade a go.  I just want to know how the damn thing ends.

[Crona]

3 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

I never said it had anything to do with the Starks?

The show has done away with whole plotlines and condensed plotlines into one character a few times.  Where the plotline has been completely done away with, we now know it holds very little relevance to the main story of ASOIAF.

Arianne is just another filler character whilst GRRM tries to sort out (or doesn't, given the fact we are 8 years and counting) how to get around the abandonment of the five year gap.

Arianne is not a filler character. She is a secondary character which still has relevance in the story. As far as I am concerned it was never stated that secondary characters mean nothing to the story nor has it been stated the characters not included in the show would have no relevance in the book.

[Ser Gareth]

2 minutes ago, Crona said:

Arianne is not a filler character. She is a secondary character which still has relevance in the story. As far as I am concerned it was never stated that secondary characters mean nothing to the story nor has it been stated the characters not included in the show would have no relevance in the book.

Secondary is pushing it.  Tertiary maybe?  There are characters without a POV that are more important than she is (The Hound for example).

She's a nothing character in the books.  Chapters that weren't required and a character the whole tale simply doesn't need.