The underlying logic of the GoT TV show: surprise

[Crona]

6 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

You are arguing to yourself here.

Surely what is crap and what is not crap is purely subjective?

And I do blame GRRM but I also acknowledge that without his works AGOT wouldn't have gotten off the ground in the first place.  But I also acknowledge that without D&D I'd never have got some kind of ending of the story and I became bored of book speculation well over a decade a go.  I just want to know how the damn thing ends.

No, you pointed that the show is still popular and I pointed out popular shows can be bad too. 

We can agree to disagree. I want the story to be fulfilling and I don’t want hasty production that doesn’t put in effort in the story anymore.  In fact I’d rather it to be unfinished if the finished product is not done right. 

 

[Ser Gareth]

3 minutes ago, Crona said:

No, you pointed that the show is still popular and I pointed out popular shows can be bad too. 

We can agree to disagree. I want the story to be fulfilling and I don’t want hasty production that doesn’t put in effort in the story anymore.  In fact I’d rather it to be unfinished if the finished product is not done right. 

 

Your first point, as I said surely that is subjective?

I wanted the story to be completed by GRRM and I wanted him to focus on the story rather than prioritising Wildcard novels.  But he got rich and couldn't bothered to finish it.  We can't always get what we want.

[Vernon Roche]

1 hour ago, Crona said:

They rushed the story, and wanted to show Jon’s Caesar moment too early. They wanted to keep the watchers engaged without showing other storylines and to cut out the “fat” of the story. However this caused the characters to become hollow as their storylines stopped making sense such as Jorah getting grey scale or Sam going to Oldtown. It’s like they underestimated how smart their audience is and now it’s crap. 

I think that's a little unfair, I don't think they underestimated the intelligence of their overall audience at all. Their audience isn't just the hyper alert book readers who understand the "lore" in great depth and are combing over episodes with a fine tooth comb (which there's nothing inherently wrong with doing), it's millions and millions of casual television fans who do not care quite as much for depth and "logic" so to speak. They're here for the odd twist and the spectacle, which the show gives them. Sometimes its easy to forget that we're not a majority all the time, they're catering fairly successfully to that audience even if it comes at the expense of the overall enjoyment of some of the more observant fans.

I think they've rushed the show (ironically enough they did the same to Rome on HBO too) and it's lost the deeper arcs and plots of the very good earlier seasons, but it's still wildly popular and watched by millions of people who don't care enough to tear apart these details, they're I'd argue the biggest chunk of the audience and they're catered to perfectly well.

[Crona]

7 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Secondary is pushing it.  Tertiary maybe?  There are characters without a POV that are more important than she is (The Hound for example).

She's a nothing character in the books.  Chapters that weren't required and a character the whole tale simply doesn't need.

Arianne is a POV character and the heir to Dorne. Not only that but the army of Dorne is fresh and ready to claim a side in the war. I don’t how you can say the Hound digging graves has more relevance than Arianne

[Ser Gareth]

Just now, Crona said:

Arianne is a POV character and the heir to Dorne. Not only that but the army of Dorne is fresh and ready to claim a side in the war. I don’t how you can say the Hound digging graves has more relevance than Arianne

Because all Dorne is going to do is be defeated.  fAegon is going to be defeated.  And in that process the realm will be weakened further and look less likely to repel the invasion of the Others.

[Ser Gareth]

2 minutes ago, Vernon Roche said:

I think that's a little unfair, I don't think they underestimated the intelligence of their overall audience at all. Their audience isn't just the hyper alert book readers who understand the "lore" in great depth and are combing over episodes with a fine tooth comb (which there's nothing inherently wrong with doing), it's millions and millions of casual television fans who do not care quite as much for depth and "logic" so to speak. They're here for the odd twist and the spectacle, which the show gives them. Sometimes its easy to forget that we're not a majority all the time, they're catering fairly successfully to that audience even if it comes at the expense of the overall enjoyment of some of the more observant fans.

I think they've rushed the show (ironically enough they did the same to Rome on HBO too) and it's lost the deeper arcs and plots of the very good earlier seasons, but it's still wildly popular and watched by millions of people who don't care enough to tear apart these details, they're I'd argue the biggest chunk of the audience and they're catered to perfectly well.

Exactly.

It never ceases to amaze me how avid book readers (generally across all books) fail to grasp the concept.  The vast majority of the book readers will only read through the novels once too and won't remember 80% of the minor characters, let alone heraldry or history.....

[dannyk65]

8 minutes ago, Vernon Roche said:

I think that's a little unfair, I don't think they underestimated the intelligence of their overall audience at all. Their audience isn't just the hyper alert book readers who understand the "lore" in great depth and are combing over episodes with a fine tooth comb (which there's nothing inherently wrong with doing), it's millions and millions of casual television fans who do not care quite as much for depth and "logic" so to speak. They're here for the odd twist and the spectacle, which the show gives them. Sometimes its easy to forget that we're not a majority all the time, they're catering fairly successfully to that audience even if it comes at the expense of the overall enjoyment of some of the more observant fans.

I think they've rushed the show (ironically enough they did the same to Rome on HBO too) and it's lost the deeper arcs and plots of the very good earlier seasons, but it's still wildly popular and watched by millions of people who don't care enough to tear apart these details, they're I'd argue the biggest chunk of the audience and they're catered to perfectly well.

I think you make some great points here, although GoT is kind of an anomaly as such a popular fantasy genre show, which tends to be a genre of hyper-alertness and geeking out on the lore.

I certainly agree the majority doesn't care about the details being dissected like the die-hards.

2 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Exactly.

It never ceases to amaze me how avid book readers (generally across all books) fail to grasp the concept.  The vast majority of the book readers will only read through the novels once too and won't remember 80% of the minor characters, let alone heraldry or history.....

It pulls me in both directions as I'm not ready to dismiss some of those characters (like Darkstar, Arienne, etc) yet without the next book...which may never come out...and like you posted earlier I want some form of an ending after all this time so the show will have to do.

[Roux]

5 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Exactly.

It never ceases to amaze me how avid book readers (generally across all books) fail to grasp the concept.  The vast majority of the book readers will only read through the novels once too and won't remember 80% of the minor characters, let alone heraldry or history.....

It's not a comparing the books to the show for me it's comparing the show through the novels vs the show since they're on their own. It's gone down hill a lot. The first seasons were awesome television even without touching all the points of the books. Now it's ok writing, not spectacular, everything's rushed and there's serious lack of development. When you're writing from an Amazing story its a lot different criteria than making it up yourself. 

[Crona]

13 minutes ago, Vernon Roche said:

I think that's a little unfair, I don't think they underestimated the intelligence of their overall audience at all. Their audience isn't just the hyper alert book readers who understand the "lore" in great depth and are combing over episodes with a fine tooth comb (which there's nothing inherently wrong with doing), it's millions and millions of casual television fans who do not care quite as much for depth and "logic" so to speak. They're here for the odd twist and the spectacle, which the show gives them. Sometimes its easy to forget that we're not a majority all the time, they're catering fairly successfully to that audience even if it comes at the expense of the overall enjoyment of some of the more observant fans.

I think they've rushed the show (ironically enough they did the same to Rome on HBO too) and it's lost the deeper arcs and plots of the very good earlier seasons, but it's still wildly popular and watched by millions of people who don't care enough to tear apart these details, they're I'd argue the biggest chunk of the audience and they're catered to perfectly well.

There are a lot of casuals that recognize there is a decrease in quality of the show. For the most part the general casuals enjoyed the parts the book readers enjoyed too. 

I will guarantee you that a large chunk of the public enjoyed season 1-4 much better than the following seasons in the end.

[Crona]

17 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Because all Dorne is going to do is be defeated.  fAegon is going to be defeated.  And in that process the realm will be weakened further and look less likely to repel the invasion of the Others.

So in your view if a house doesn’t make it to the end then that house is irrelevant? They have absolutely nothing to do with the story. And FYI there is a Prince if Dorne now so Dorne survived in the end. (So far) 

[Vernon Roche]

1 minute ago, Crona said:

There are a lot of casuals that recognize there is a decrease in quality of the show. For the most part the general casuals enjoyed the parts the book readers enjoyed too. 

I will guarantee you that a large chunk of the public enjoyed season 1-4 much better than the following seasons in the end.

I'd agree with that, generally, the earlier season were of greater quality and I feel like it's been a huge mistake to begin condensing the seasons (again they did it to Rome too, season one was outstanding, then season two was three seasons in one due to the budget being so high making it for HBO which has unfortunate parallels with GOT too). The pacing this season has been off, too much is missed and there has been a difference, none of this I disagree with, I just don't think the wider audience they cater to care anywhere near as much, so I don't think they're necessarily failing to provide what the overall audience wants and can enjoy.

I wish they had more seasons, more episodes and more exploration of characters and arcs, I just don't think the general audience cares quite as much and overall are much happier with the show than the more observant fans are.

[Ser Gareth]

9 minutes ago, Crona said:

So in your view if a house doesn’t make it to the end then that house is irrelevant? They have absolutely nothing to do with the story. And FYI there is a Prince if Dorne now so Dorne survived in the end. (So far) 

No, I'd say it is a means to an end, because their direct relevance isn't important to the end.

For example.  If the end is that an army of 10,000 needs to be reduced to 1,000 to make it seem like hopeless odds against the Others, then it doesn't matter how that army number is depleted (fighting another army, disease, accidentally falling in a giant's latrine etc), all that matters is that when the fight with the Others happens, it seems like hopeless odds.

[Crona]

10 minutes ago, Vernon Roche said:

I'd agree with that, generally, the earlier season were of greater quality and I feel like it's been a huge mistake to begin condensing the seasons (again they did it to Rome too, season one was outstanding, then season two was three seasons in one due to the budget being so high making it for HBO which has unfortunate parallels with GOT too). The pacing this season has been off, too much is missed and there has been a difference, none of this I disagree with, I just don't think the wider audience they cater to care anywhere near as much, so I don't think they're necessarily failing to provide what the overall audience wants and can enjoy.

I wish they had more seasons, more episodes and more exploration of characters and arcs, I just don't think the general audience cares quite as much and overall are much happier with the show than the more observant fans are.

Yea I agree. I think a lot of the fans enjoyed the fan service episodes like battle of the bastards and the shock factor. I just don’t like making excuses for their bad storylines.

[Crona]

5 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

No, I'd say it is a means to an end, because their direct relevance isn't important to the end.

For example.  If the end is that an army of 10,000 needs to be reduced to 1,000 to make it seem like hopeless odds against the Others, then it doesn't matter how that army number is depleted (fighting another army, disease, accidentally falling in a giant's latrine etc), all that matters is that when the fight with the Others happens, it seems like hopeless odds.

I think you and I have two different ideas. I think there are two storylines one that deals with the others and the other storyline is the crown. So to me I don’t see southerners marching up to the North but I do see them as being involved with the Iron Throne.

[Vernon Roche]

2 minutes ago, Crona said:

Yea I agree. I think a lot of the fans enjoyed the fan service episodes like battle of the bastards and the shock factor. I just don’t like making excuses for their bad storylines.

I think there's a balance, I think places like here can sometimes be massively overly critical and at times conspiratorial regarding the reasons for writing decisions etc, I think the middle ground is that they've struggled to replicate the depth post-books for script help, equally I get the impression the showrunners fatigue with the show and the studios budget concerns have caused the show to be condensed and rushed through a little more which always has an impact on the depth but equally they've also managed to keep giving the overall audience what they want successfully, but it's come at the expense of the more observant fans enjoyment and the comparative quality of the show. They have also made some strange choices, but as you and others have said, perhaps they are strange not because they're not what George plans to happen but because the shows running time and condensation has removed the important plot depth.

[Ser Gareth]

4 hours ago, Crona said:

I think you and I have two different ideas. I think there are two storylines one that deals with the others and the other storyline is the crown. So to me I don’t see southerners marching up to the North but I do see them as being involved with the Iron Throne.

I agree they'll be involved in the battle for the Iron Throne.  Their relevance will be done BEFORE the Others arrive though.

I am 100% certain that the timelines in the show will match the books, e.g. the Others will be defeated whilst Cersei sits on the throne.

[LadyBlackwater]

15 hours ago, of man and wolf said:

so none of what has been shown in the show is happening in the books then? How do we know? And if it does...is GRRM doing that for surprise?

I think there are hints of the books. Maybe some whispers. But I do think at this point, its fan service in the show.

[LadyBlackwater]

7 hours ago, Roux said:

Id buy that. 

I think the moment they traded Jeyne Pool for Sansa they just went rogue. It's still a good show, I really love it but this season is rushed and its knowing there's a deadline and theyre trying to bring everything back to the 'proper endings' they've cut out so many characters and changed so many stories that there's no room for anything to be on track. There's not time to do it all justice so they're losing too much and it's getting weaker. It's good, just not as good as it was. 

Yes. Most definitely. I really do agree with the sansa/jeyne pool comment. They've gone off the rails and its too late to turn back. Kind of a bummer.

[Crona]

1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said:

I agree they'll be involved in the battle for the Iron Throne.  Their relevance will be done BEFORE the Others arrive though.

I am 100% certain that the timelines in the show will match the books, e.g. the Others will be defeated whilst Cersei sits on the throne.

No even evidence in the show that after the others are done Highgarden and Dorne are still relevant. I don’t understand how you are not getting what I am saying. 

Dany will go to the North however the kingdom that she conquers will stay in the south (Willas, Arianne and Tyrion). To say the whole southern region  have no revelance to the Iron Throne is frankly wrong 

[Ser Gareth]

23 minutes ago, Crona said:

No even evidence in the show that after the others are done Highgarden and Dorne are still relevant. I don’t understand how you are not getting what I am saying. 

Dany will go to the North however the kingdom that she conquers will stay in the south (Willas, Arianne and Tyrion). To say the whole southern region  have no revelance to the Iron Throne is frankly wrong 

I never said it had no relevance.  OK, let me lay this out in black and white to see if I can make myself clearer.

ASOAIF has two main plots.  The Long Night and who is going to sit on the Iron Throne at the very end (if anyone).

The Long Night will be concluded first.  To add drama to this plotline, it has to seem like the cause is hopeless.  The best way to achieve this is a fractured realm where the realm tears itself apart and where thousands and thousands of able soldiers die.  This means there will be smaller human army in the face of the Others invasion, which adds to the drama.  Almost all the wars we've seen so far (e.g. the War of the Five Kings) is a plot device to this end.  Aegon's invasion adds to the complications, more warfare, more death, less soldiers to fight the Others.  That's Aegon's purpose.  To bring more death to the realm so that the fight against the Others seems hopeless.  By the way, I am not convinced the Others are dead in the show.  It just seemed a little too easy, but that may be lazy writing.

The second plot is who is going to sit on the Iron Throne at the end.  Now clearly the Long Night is going to be a massive factor in this because firstly so many potential candidates must die to ensure there is less of a human presence to face the Others and secondary because some players may die in the war itself.

I believe that Cersei would have sat on the throne very early on in the TWOW and she won't lose it until the one more beautiful comes along to cast her down.  And no, I do not believe for a second that Arianne is the one more beautiful because Arianne's importance was upgraded in AFFC to what it would have originally been in the original six volumes (book four would have started with Dany landing in Westeros).  Also Arianne wasn't even mentioned in the first two books and yet someone figured out the ending just from those two books (GRRM's words) so we readers know that all we need to know to figure out the end exists in those first two books.

So it comes down to who will depose Cersei at the end of the story.  The more beautiful.  Where there are three candidates.  Dany (too obvious it would seem, but then in the books Margaery was given the focus so it may only be too obvious as we've had years to discuss it).  Sansa (who I originally thought it would be when I first read AFFC but now I am not so sure).  Or Arya.  Now the showrunners have a problem with Arya.  No offence to Maisie Williams but she isn't what you would call classically beautiful, where as there is enough foreshadowing in the books to suggest Arya is an ugly duckling who is going to grow into a beautiful swan.  They could get around this by having Arya wearing a face of course.

Way back in the first book Bran had the vision that clearly depicts the Hound, UnGregor and probably Jaime, along with Sansa and Arya.  So it seems likely those five are going to be together at some point in the story.  So my guess is that Sansa or Arya will be the one who casts Cersei down.