The underlying logic of the GoT TV show: surprise

[LadyBlackwater]

8 hours ago, Lord Lyman said:

By including all that, you’ve just increased the cast budget and and probably pushed the show to 10+ seasons. GRRM has said that he believed his series to be unfilmable and given the changes in the show, I don’t believe he’s wrong. I think GRRM even said he had an offer to turn them into movies. Imagine a 2.5 hour GOT movie. 

How do you think GRRM feels about what they have done with the show? I agree that there had to be character cuts, but how do you think he REALLY feels about the direction they have taken it in?

[Crona]

14 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

I never said it had no relevance.  OK, let me lay this out in black and white to see if I can make myself clearer.

ASOAIF has two main plots.  The Long Night and who is going to sit on the Iron Throne at the very end (if anyone).

The Long Night will be concluded first.  To add drama to this plotline, it has to seem like the cause is hopeless.  The best way to achieve this is a fractured realm where the realm tears itself apart and where thousands and thousands of able soldiers die.  This means there will be smaller human army in the face of the Others invasion, which adds to the drama.  Almost all the wars we've seen so far (e.g. the War of the Five Kings) is a plot device to this end.  Aegon's invasion adds to the complications, more warfare, more death, less soldiers to fight the Others.  That's Aegon's purpose.  To bring more death to the realm so that the fight against the Others seems hopeless.  By the way, I am not convinced the Others are dead in the show.  It just seemed a little too easy, but that may be lazy writing.

The second plot is who is going to sit on the Iron Throne at the end.  Now clearly the Long Night is going to be a massive factor in this because firstly so many potential candidates must die to ensure there is less of a human presence to face the Others and secondary because some players may die in the war itself.

I believe that Cersei would have sat on the throne very early on in the TWOW and she won't lose it until the one more beautiful comes along to cast her down.  And no, I do not believe for a second that Arianne is the one more beautiful because Arianne's importance was upgraded in AFFC to what it would have originally been in the original six volumes (book four would have started with Dany landing in Westeros).  Also Arianne wasn't even mentioned in the first two books and yet someone figured out the ending just from those two books (GRRM's words) so we readers know that all we need to know to figure out the end exists in those first two books.

So it comes down to who will depose Cersei at the end of the story.  The more beautiful.  Where there are three candidates.  Dany (too obvious it would seem, but then in the books Margaery was given the focus so it may only be too obvious as we've had years to discuss it).  Sansa (who I originally thought it would be when I first read AFFC but now I am not so sure).  Or Arya.  Now the showrunners have a problem with Arya.  No offence to Maisie Williams but she isn't what you would call classically beautiful, where as there is enough foreshadowing in the books to suggest Arya is an ugly duckling who is going to grow into a beautiful swan.  They could get around this by having Arya wearing a face of course.

Way back in the first book Bran had the vision that clearly depicts the Hound, UnGregor and probably Jaime, along with Sansa and Arya.  So it seems likely those five are going to be together at some point in the story.  So my guess is that Sansa or Arya will be the one who casts Cersei down.

What are you talking about? Of course Arianne is not going to take down Cersei. Arianne’s duty is to represent her people at court and making alliances. Because Dorne, and Reach are part of the 7 kingdoms and without their support Dany can’t claim to rule the 7 kingdoms

[Ser Gareth]

17 minutes ago, Crona said:

What are you talking about? Of course Arianne is not going to take down Cersei. Arianne’s duty is to represent her people at court and making alliances. Because Dorne, and Reach are part of the 7 kingdoms and without their support Dany can’t claim to rule the 7 kingdoms

By the time Dany arrives at Westeros, there is a very strong chance that Arianne's arc will be over.

I don't know if you've read any of the TWOW preview chapters, so I don't want to say much more about Arianne in case you haven't.

[Crona]

7 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

By the time Dany arrives at Westeros, there is a very strong chance that Arianne's arc will be over.

I don't know if you've read any of the TWOW preview chapters, so I don't want to say much more about Arianne in case you haven't.

I have read the previews of TWOW and read the books 4 times. I don’t think Arianne’s arch will end there but this is my opinion and your opinion differs

[Lord Lyman]

42 minutes ago, LadyBlackwater said:

How do you think GRRM feels about what they have done with the show? I agree that there had to be character cuts, but how do you think he REALLY feels about the direction they have taken it in?

Some of the changes he probably isn't pleased about, however being a former TV writer himself, I think he understands why certain things had to be done. I think part of the reaons he wrote the books to begin with was because he could write a story the way he wanted too without the real-world restrictions.

[Tagganaro]

8 hours ago, Vernon Roche said:

I think that's a little unfair, I don't think they underestimated the intelligence of their overall audience at all. Their audience isn't just the hyper alert book readers who understand the "lore" in great depth and are combing over episodes with a fine tooth comb (which there's nothing inherently wrong with doing), it's millions and millions of casual television fans who do not care quite as much for depth and "logic" so to speak. They're here for the odd twist and the spectacle, which the show gives them. Sometimes its easy to forget that we're not a majority all the time, they're catering fairly successfully to that audience even if it comes at the expense of the overall enjoyment of some of the more observant fans.

I think they've rushed the show (ironically enough they did the same to Rome on HBO too) and it's lost the deeper arcs and plots of the very good earlier seasons, but it's still wildly popular and watched by millions of people who don't care enough to tear apart these details, they're I'd argue the biggest chunk of the audience and they're catered to perfectly well.

I agree with this and your other posts so much on here.  

7 hours ago, Crona said:

There are a lot of casuals that recognize there is a decrease in quality of the show. For the most part the general casuals enjoyed the parts the book readers enjoyed too. 

I will guarantee you that a large chunk of the public enjoyed season 1-4 much better than the following seasons in the end.

There are also a lot of casuals that think these seasons are just as good as the earlier seasons.  I think it's double-edged in that respect.  In my opinion, the plot has suffered greatly since they passed the books, but D & D can and sometimes do make up for it with great dialogue and characterization and spectacle (like Episode 2 of this season which I'd rank as a top 5 episode ever personally). 

7 hours ago, Vernon Roche said:

I think there's a balance, I think places like here can sometimes be massively overly critical and at times conspiratorial regarding the reasons for writing decisions etc, I think the middle ground is that they've struggled to replicate the depth post-books for script help, equally I get the impression the showrunners fatigue with the show and the studios budget concerns have caused the show to be condensed and rushed through a little more which always has an impact on the depth but equally they've also managed to keep giving the overall audience what they want successfully, but it's come at the expense of the more observant fans enjoyment and the comparative quality of the show. They have also made some strange choices, but as you and others have said, perhaps they are strange not because they're not what George plans to happen but because the shows running time and condensation has removed the important plot depth.

I don't have a problem with critiquing the show, but it's out of control on here IMO.  Seems like there are many people on here who watch the show out of spite and looking for the bad in it, which is not something I agree with and I don't think allows for people to be fair about their takes on things.  

I think they've rushed these past 2 seasons, as I also agree there seems to be fatigue that caused them to drop the episode count and rush things a little bit.  That is only natural IMO, the TV guys have been doing this a while and probably did not count on having to make things up as they went along, thinking GRRM would finish the books well before the show.  

While I get that there are a lot of things to critique, I think there are a lot damn more to praise about this show and it is still firing on most cylinders and still one of the best shows on TV.

[LadyBlackwater]

1 minute ago, Lord Lyman said:

Some of the changes he probably isn't pleased about, however being a former TV writer himself, I think he understands why certain things had to be done. I think part of the reaons he wrote the books to begin with was because he could write a story the way he wanted too without the real-world restrictions.

Yes. One of my very favorite things about GRRM is how descriptive he is. I love backstory so much. It feeds my soul. I love that I can go through his descriptions of a feast and recreate it successfully at any time. I love how much we learn about the characters and motives. Wonderful.

[Crona]

3 minutes ago, LadyBlackwater said:

Yes. One of my very favorite things about GRRM is how descriptive he is. I love backstory so much. It feeds my soul. I love that I can go through his descriptions of a feast and recreate it successfully at any time. I love how much we learn about the characters and motives. Wonderful.

Exactly, I love the way he writes. I can always re-read the books and there’s always something new I take from it. 

[LadyBlackwater]

Just now, Crona said:

Exactly, I love the way he writes. I can always re-read the books and there’s always something new I take from it. 

Every time!!!! I am re-reading the first one just to see who I spot glimpses of from early on that we learn more about later! Love the books. Have you read all the sample chapters for WOW yet? I love those! 

[Crona]

6 minutes ago, LadyBlackwater said:

Every time!!!! I am re-reading the first one just to see who I spot glimpses of from early on that we learn more about later! Love the books. Have you read all the sample chapters for WOW yet? I love those! 

I read the sample chapters of TWOW and I think they are brilliant especially the forsaken chapter! 

[Corvinus85]

1 minute ago, Crona said:

I read the sample chapters of TWOW and I think they are brilliant especially the forsaken chapter! 

Where can you read the Forsaken chapter? Afaik, he read it at a con, but he never released it.

[LadyBlackwater]

2 minutes ago, Crona said:

I read the sample chapters of TWOW and I think they are brilliant especially the forsaken chapter! 

Did you notice that the mercy chapter got a little nod in the show? And lady Stork in the name of Lady Crane lol

[LadyBlackwater]

8 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Where can you read the Forsaken chapter? Afaik, he read it at a con, but he never released it.

https://thehawke.github.io/twow-excerpts/chapters/forsaken.html  right here friend:)

[Crona]

7 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Where can you read the Forsaken chapter? Afaik, he read it at a con, but he never released it.

I honestly google it, there are blogs that have the excepts. There are YouTube videos of trusted youtubers that have read the chapter in a video.  I think my favorite was from Ideas of Ice and Fire

[Roux]

1 hour ago, Crona said:

What are you talking about? Of course Arianne is not going to take down Cersei. Arianne’s duty is to represent her people at court and making alliances. Because Dorne, and Reach are part of the 7 kingdoms and without their support Dany can’t claim to rule the 7 kingdoms

They've always claimed it as the seven kingdoms but Dorne has been on it's own for years before our story begins. It's part of what Aegon the Conqueror designed but they went off when  Elia was murdered I think. Tyrion says something about bringing Dorne back into the mix with Myrcella. Still tenuous when all hell breaks loose with Roberts piggy problems and the war and Dany etc. 

[Crona]

9 minutes ago, LadyBlackwater said:

Did you notice that the mercy chapter got a little nod in the show? And lady Stork in the name of Lady Crane lol

Yes it was, I actually really liked it. I think there was another part where in the show she killed Meryn Trant that reminded me of her killing Raff the sweet ling 

[LadyBlackwater]

Just now, Crona said:

Yes it was, I actually really liked it. I think there was another part where in the show she killed Meryn Trant that reminded me of her killing Raff the sweet ling 

Yea I think that was also a little nod, but I prefer her killing of Raff lol what a wonderful way to cross the name off her list!