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LadyNoOne

The Dothraki Gave Their Advantage

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Hi,

While I do not believe that the Red Woman intended it this way, she did surrender the Dothraki advantage in lighting their weapons.  It made the Dead harder to see by the Dothraki, and the reverse.   Might it also be the arrogance of the Dothraki screamers that lead them to their doom?

Cheers,

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My question is what the hell was the plan for the Dothraki in general? No one knew Mel would show up and light their weapons. So, they were initially going to charge blindly into 100,000+ undead enemies that they can't see, whilst wearing no armour and using no Valyrian steel or dragonglass weapons, the only things they know can kill the undead.

Don't forget, lighting those normal swords/arakhs on fire severely weakens them and makes them prone to snapping, as demonstrated in the Hound vs Berric fight.

Was everyone off their face drunk writing this?

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The Dothraki had no role they could reasonably play until Mel showed up. They couldn't stay in the castle because there are too many of them (to say nothing of the horses). They couldn't use arrows to flank the zombies or attack their rear because the defenders didn't have enough arrows, especially once you account for the need for obsidian-tipped arrows (the Dothraki wouldn't have been able to light arrows on fire while riding around in the open). Dothraki don't/wouldn't fight on foot, and as noted their weapons would be useless if they did.

Once Mel showed up and lit their swords, a charge actually made some sense. For one thing, it's what the Dothraki do. For another, charging unprotected infantry -- no shield wall or long pikes or archers -- is not a terrible idea. Human infantry probably would have scattered and run. Didn't work out well in this case, of course.

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21 minutes ago, thegearsofwar2010 said:

Was everyone off their face drunk

I agree complete nonsense,  for the excellent light  horse archers  trained from boyhood, (based historically by Martin on Huns, Mongols, and Alan's),   to make a 'Custer Charge', into  an unseen, undead,  enemy that outnumbers them by more than three to one.....TBH most drunks could write a better plot than this.!!!!

 

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5 minutes ago, Sophist said:

They couldn't use arrows to flank the zombies or attack their rear because the defenders didn't have enough arrows, especially once you account for the need for obsidian-tipped arrows (the Dothraki wouldn't have been able to light arrows on fire while riding around in the open). 

Well, Jon called for even the women folk to be trained to fire a bow in S7....if they couldn't supply enough arrows that was a waste if time....also, give all the Obsidian arrows to the Dothraki, and have 500 to 1000 of their excellent horse archers (trained from boyhood), skirmish in across the entire front of the undead...provoking a charge, and/ or thinning their numbers.....they can fire 20 to 30 arrows a minute, even at the gallop. Keeping 200 to 300 metres out of the front line of the undead...Some large pre-order bonfires out on the plane would have helped.....Dothraki, skirmishes retreat and flow around Winterfell to the rear, or go through the gates...then no need for the infantry and artillery to be deployed outside the walls....The rest of the Dothraki, can be held in reserve behind Winterfell etc ready for a counter attack....?but no one in camp 'Alive' could have thought this tactic up.???

 

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2 hours ago, thegearsofwar2010 said:

My question is what the hell was the plan for the Dothraki in general? No one knew Mel would show up and light their weapons. So, they were initially going to charge blindly into 100,000+ undead enemies that they can't see, whilst wearing no armour and using no Valyrian steel or dragonglass weapons, the only things they know can kill the undead.

Don't forget, lighting those normal swords/arakhs on fire severely weakens them and makes them prone to snapping, as demonstrated in the Hound vs Berric fight.

Was everyone off their face drunk writing this?

This.

Lets assume they rode over the undead and clashed with White Walkers - in the show WW are immune to fire and they can destroy regular blades easily, weakened or not. So I guess the idea was that Dothraki gang the WWs and hold them down with their bare hands until sir Jorah arrives with the Valyrian blade and dispatches monsters one by one?

For this they should've used Gendry, he's the fastest or so I've heard.

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It's fine, I guess, to give all the arrows to the Dothraki, but the fact remains that they don't have enough arrows. And once the Dothraki shoot all their arrows, they can't stop the zombies from reaching Winterfell, nor can they counterattack, because they then have no usable weapons.

Nor would this tactic eliminate the need for the Unsullied, at least, to be outside the castle. Long pikes in a phalanx won't work inside the castle, and once again, there isn't room inside for them anyway. But if the Unsullied are outside their flanks need protection -- that's inherent in a phalanx. That means many -- maybe not as many as we saw, but many -- of the Northerners and wildlings would have needed to be outside.

The catapults would not have fit in the castle, especially not if more soldiers remained inside. In addition, they lost their usefulness once the zombies closed the gap because of the problem of friendly fire (and also because you can't re-range a Medieval trebuchet the way you can modern field artillery). The best thing to do would have been to set them on fire (assuming they could without magic; see the trench) to channel the attack.

As for provoking a charge, I think the Dothraki did quite well in that regard.

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Funny thing is that a much better battle could have done with the same f*cking budget, so please, no budget excuses!

All the resources are there already. The trebuchets, the cavalry, the trench.... but the way they were used... DAMN.

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The Unsullied pikes, while not useful in corridors (which is why they have swords as well) would however be useful on the battlements and in  gates and other such passages. Or standing BEHIND a trench with spikes far apart wnough to poke blade through but close enough not to let a human body through. Placing anyone in front of a major engineering obstacle was stupid and gave up a large advantage. I mean you do not even need the trench and pallisade too big, first line of obstacles could easily be just a shallow ditch or tripúwires etc. just to disrupt the mad mindless charge. Then dithch with loose pallisade adne screen of spear/pikemen to blunt the incoherent stream of zombies, ready to retreat to another line of obstacles far before zombies pile up high enough. The disciplined Unsullied would be ideal for such role and the obstacles would create natural pileups of zombies to be lit up by dragons even after the defenders pulled back (as well as a target for preregistered catapults). If catapults cannot fit into the castle (which would be pretty dumb as castles would usually have supplies to build defensive catapults on their bastions when needed), have them behin thhe last line of obstacles in front of the walls. Even if they cannot shift fire (which they would be at least in a limited range), having them fire at the first lines of obstacles and into the congestion created there would work. Even if just throwing a lot of smaller rocks - ice zombie with shattered legs won't be too fast. With the balls of fire, you are burning a lot of ice zombies right there and then.

Arakhs would make a great anti-zombie weapon as they are primarily slashing weapons with mostly unarmored opponents. And Dothraki do fight on foot as well - their frienly killings on weddings and so on happen on foot. But most of Dothraki would be bnetter used as scouts - maintaining contact with the Dead and reporting their progress (even at night, have riders with torches so that you can see where the enemy is as they withdraw) - but keep bulk of them away. Heck, even keep them/send them South (the guys from the Wall demonstrated riders can outrun the zombie army). Or if you really want to use them, move them to the same spot Dany and Jon used and have them attack rear of the zombie horde. Thin out the herd, and with a bit of luck goading the white walkers into following them, lessening the pressure on the castle... Or enev provoke the Hornhead into coming in with the unDragon which was the main goal. Even.

 

Having light cavalry shadow the undead host would also allow Jon and Dany to, instead of a romantic encounter by the waterfalls, thin out the herd with dragonfire. Set forest ablaze, why won't they?Treetops would provide a good protection against WW throwing icicles at them. Though it seemed both Jon and Dany forgot their dragons can flame until the Night King was turned into pedestrian.

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The dragons were very active burning wights until the storm came in, so I don't know what it means to say they weren't. 

Dany and Jon were restricted in their positioning by the need to track the NK. The whole problem faced by the living was that they could not win unless they killed the NK. All the discussion of tactics beyond that is academic.

Arakhs are useless against zombies. We've seen repeatedly that ordinary weapons don't slow them down even in the slightest. Sending the Dothraki south would make sense in summer, but it's a long way to Moat Cailin with nothing in between. Most of them and their horses would have starved.

Setting the forest afire might have been possible with dragon fire, but it's doubtful. It's the middle of winter and the NK called up a storm. Only magic got the trench lit, and that was built to burn.

Many other suggestions assume unlimited time and materials, which they didn't have.

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1 minute ago, Sophist said:

The dragons were very active burning wights until the storm came in, so I don't know what it means to say they weren't. 

Dany and Jon were restricted in their positioning by the need to track the NK. The whole problem faced by the living was that they could not win unless they killed the NK. All the discussion of tactics beyond that is academic.

Arakhs are useless against zombies. We've seen repeatedly that ordinary weapons don't slow them down even in the slightest. Sending the Dothraki south would make sense in summer, but it's a long way to Moat Cailin with nothing in between. Most of them and their horses would have starved.

Setting the forest afire might have been possible with dragon fire, but it's doubtful. It's the middle of winter and the NK called up a storm. Only magic got the trench lit, and that was built to burn.

Many other suggestions assume unlimited time and materials, which they didn't have.

But why were Dany and Jon looking for the NK? The plan was to bait him to Bran, not hunt him down. But then again, why put your bait behind your entire lines. The would mean all your forces had to crushed before the bait could be enacted... lol

Honestly, the bulk of the Dothraki should've just fought on foot. They may not be the ideal footmen, but they are all pretty decent fighters. And they're not fighting the standard enemy either. They should've set all the horses on fire and threw them at the Wight Army.

By the way, what happened to the Knights of the Vale horses?

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, thegearsofwar2010 said:

My question is what the hell was the plan for the Dothraki in general? No one knew Mel would show up and light their weapons. So, they were initially going to charge blindly into 100,000+ undead enemies that they can't see, whilst wearing no armour and using no Valyrian steel or dragonglass weapons, the only things they know can kill the undead.

Don't forget, lighting those normal swords/arakhs on fire severely weakens them and makes them prone to snapping, as demonstrated in the Hound vs Berric fight.

Was everyone off their face drunk writing this?

I was so glad other people picked up on this. The easiest way to bring Mel back and show her being useful so that Davos will let her into the castle was to bring the Fiery Hand. She was going to Esso for god sake it would of been so simple. Give the Dothraki dragon glass arakhs so you don't look even more incompetent as they had no clue Mel was gonna show up and suddenly make their weapons useful.

The Dothraki should of been used to flank the enemy when the dead reached the unsullied if we wanna talk about what they could of been used for.

Edited by Adam_Up_Bxtch

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It would make no sense to put Bran anywhere but in a safe place. Otherwise the zombies would just overwhelm his defenders and kill him without the NK needing to lift a finger.

What happened to the Knights of the Vale is a good question. There's something going on there and I suspect we'll learn it tonight.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Sophist said:

 

What happened to the Knights of the Vale is a good question. There's something going on there and I suspect we'll learn it tonight.

The knights fought as dismounted infantry on the flank that Brienne commanded.  They were right behind her and Jamie.  You can see the Arryn Falcon (is that the sigil?) on their shields or breastplates.  One even broke and ran before the dead reached the knights.

You can see the Arryn sigil on the planning map in Ep 2.  A thin line in front of the main body of Northerners on the left flank.

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

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44 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

I was so glad other people picked up on this. The easiest way to bring Mel back and show her being useful so that Davos will let her into the castle was to bring the Fiery Hand. She was going to Esso for god sake it would of been so simple. Give the Dothraki dragon glass arakhs so you don't look even more incompetent as they had no clue Mel was gonna show up and suddenly make their weapons useful.

The Dothraki should of been used to flank the enemy when the dead reached the unsullied if we wanna talk about what they could of been used for.

Does anyone even know why she left Westeros, returned to Essos, then came back to Westeros just as the battle was about to start?

Dothraki could have been used for many other tactics/moves. As you said, flank the enemy when the dead reach the Unsullied, arm them with dragonglass arrows, dragonglass Arakhs. They could've taken out thousands of undead whilst preserving themselves.

Have multiple sequential trenches filled with highly flammable oil - Dothraki goad the undead into attacking and chasing, lead them into the oil trenches and light them with fire arrows, trapping a large portion of the undead in a field of fire.

Have multiple pits dug deep all over the fields and filled with dragonglass spikes - again use the Dothraki to goad the undead into chasing then falling into them.

If you're going to just blindly charge them, have thousands of teams of Dothraki with long flaming/dragonglass chains held between sections of them to slice through the undead.

Just about anything would have been better than charging head on in pitch darkness with useless weapons, no armour and ADDING tens of thousands to the number of the enemies army. They'd have even been more use RIDING AWAY to bloody Dorne or somewhere, at least then they wouldn't be adding to the undead!

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6 hours ago, thegearsofwar2010 said:

My question is what the hell was the plan for the Dothraki in general? No one knew Mel would show up and light their weapons. So, they were initially going to charge blindly into 100,000+ undead enemies that they can't see, whilst wearing no armour and using no Valyrian steel or dragonglass weapons, the only things they know can kill the undead.

Don't forget, lighting those normal swords/arakhs on fire severely weakens them and makes them prone to snapping, as demonstrated in the Hound vs Berric fight.

Was everyone off their face drunk writing this?

It looked cool man that's all that matters

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20 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

The knights fought as dismounted infantry on the flank that Brienne commanded.  They were right behind her and Jamie.  You can see the Arryn Falcon (is that the sigil?) on their shields or breastplates.  One even broke and ran before the dead reached the knights.

You can see the Arryn sigil on the planning map in Ep 2.  A thin line in front of the main body of Northerners on the left flank.

Thanks. I missed that.

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what needs to happened is that they should  have jamie, arya and hound go into secret halls and kill cersai and the mountain.

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2 hours ago, Winterz said:

Funny thing is that a much better battle could have done with the same f*cking budget, so please, no budget excuses!

All the resources are there already. The trebuchets, the cavalry, the trench.... but the way they were used... DAMN.

It was 100% a writing issue, not a budget issue, I'd say.

They clearly had a enough assets and special effects for the episode and the problem was how they were used:
Mel lights the Dothraki swords (I don't care what they are called) on fire....only for it to be useless.
They have Catapults....only for them to be useless.
They have Dothraki and Unsullied...only for them to be useless.
Mel lights the moat on fire....only for it to be useless.
They have Brann...only for him to be useless.
They have mother-fracking Dragons....only for them to be useless.
Etc.etc.etc.

It was that constant failing on the part of our heroes that made the whole battle kinda boring and pointless to me. At some point early on it just became obvious to me that no matter what anybody did it wouldn't make a damn difference for or against the outcome of the battle until the last act of the overblown fight scene episode. 
I get they wanted  a desperate, doomed struggle, but a desperate struggle still needs to be a close call in some way, not a curb-stomp.
Think of the Battle of Minas Tirith for example. It was a struggle, our heroes were standing on their last leg at the end, but nothing felt wasted or pointless. Or, in the show itself...Blackwater.

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