[Spoilers] Episode 804 Discussion

[BlueNightzx]

on a side note, i found really stunning how much more beautiful Missandei looked, and maybe even more regal, than both cersei and Dany.

[BlackLightning]

4 minutes ago, Ricarprs said:

Robert Baratheon himself won it by war. The Targaryens won it by war.

All these discussions about who’s got a better claim are adjudicated in the book as in real life by wars or assasinations.

As to wether which one has a better claim, Jon or Dany- same rules apply. Except that Jon is willing to bend the knee, Dany not so much. I really don’t get the “she deserves it, she’s a strong woman” argument. She chooses power over love, Jon chooses love over power. She chooses hiding the truth, he chooses disclosing the truth. She knows the people are more drawn to him, but no matter because, you know, she REALLY wants the throne. So Jon, if you really love me, give up the throne, bend the knee and lie for me.

And so I move on to the “mad queen argument”. I have been rewatching the series from the beginning and you can see her tendency to destroy those who cross her from season 2. She burns the magi, she locks one of her maidens with Hotharis in a vault, but we root for her because she is the underdog, and those people had it coming. But then she starts burning her enemies, always “bad guys” until the Tarlys. These were honorable men. But they would not bend the knee. She REALLY hates it when people don’t bend the knee from way back.

As the crowning moment of irony in this episode, she is quite willing to liberate King’s Landing folk by carbonizing them. Those of you who know history will remember the Vietnam era’s famous joke- we had to burn the village to save it. 

She is not “going mad”, she has since season 2 been willing to torch those who will not bend the knee

Randyll Tarly was not an honorable man. How can he be an honorable man if he treats his son, his own flesh and blood, like old outdated furniture? How can he be honorable by abandoning a woman he has known since he was a boy in her time of need for a woman who destroyed her family? How can he be honorable by disrespecting and humiliating his own houseguests?

Don't make me laugh.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

You and I both know that there is more to Varys than what meets the eye. Yes, we already know what Varys said and what Varys wants...but Varys has some very specific motives that drive him to say what he says and want what he wants. And very unlikely that it's about the people.

On top of that, Varys has yet to tell Tyrion the full story of how he came to be maimed. Nor has Varys told Tyrion what happened after.

Varys is an actor and liar. Someone very good at making things appear like they aren't.

Besides, GRRM has said that we would find out Varys' motives in A Dream of Spring. Now why would he say that if Varys has already told us his motives?

Oh, we certainly need to know what drove him to involve himself in this shit hole of a continent in the first place and what connects him to Aegon and Illyrio, etc. But his voice grew darker when he talked to Kevan the same way it did when he told Tyrion the story of his castration. What he told Kevan was the truth - not all of it, but part of it.

And that part of the truth is going to turn him against Aegon should the boy ever fuck things up. Now, no idea if he will do that, of course. But he could. And then Varys might end up in team Dany or team Jon after all.

[hallam]

So I get the feeling that a Sansa/Tyrion happy ending might well happen. Question is whether it will be in Winterfell or Kings Landing. Case in point here is that this is the first time Tyrion talks about sex in a very long time. 

Tyrion is showing the principal weakness of all very intelligent people: He expects others to act rationally and intelligently. Tyrion doesn't trust Danny because he thinks she has changed, he trusts her because he believes it is in her best interests.

The future doesn't exactly look rosy for Danny or Jon. One thing I don't think she has really thought through is that if Drogon is gone, so is her power.

It seems pretty obvious to me that the Jon/Danny battle ain't the way to take Cersei out. But the Arya/Hound plot looks too damn obvious at this point.

Looks to me like it is Jamie going to take Cersei out and end up killed in the process.

[LadyBlackwater]

I just hope Gendry gets to be happy in the end. 

[BlackLightning]

3 minutes ago, Ilissa said:

Yes. It is so unnatural that they were not married yet. This is the way all dynastic problems were solved in the Middle Ages.

Not only dynastic problems. But, contrary to popular belief, people in the medieval era did in fact marry for love. Even the highborn people did. Having bastard children was undesirable, shameful and, frankly, deeply unfair to everyone involved. People weren't at all how they were now; marriage was paramount. For both men and women. If you feel something strong for the person of the opposite sex, if you envision yourself growing and living with them for years...you marry. Simple.

This is another plot hole.

The Northmen would have pushed for a marriage the moment Jon and Dany walked into Winterfell. Statesmen as accomplished as Tyrion and Varys or even ones like Davos would have been pressing for a marriage back in season 7 on Dragonstone. Melisandre vaguely hinted at it but even she should have pressed the issue.

[#teamNightking]

10 hours ago, Ricarprs said:

All these discussions about who’s got a better claim are adjudicated in the book as in real life by wars or assasinations.

Yeah the only benefit of a stronger claim is it's likely it would get you a bigger army and more allies. 

Having a claim is step 1. Then you must 2. lay claim through war or assassination. Then 3. hold your claim against war or assassination 

It's very survival of the fittest. The throne belongs to whoever can claim it, take it and hold it. 

So far Cersei is a champ. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by #teamNightking

[Old Rusty Coin]

13 minutes ago, LadyBlackwater said:

Something like “it felt better than dying”

Ah, so. Very satisfied with Arya's story arc all along. This fits.

[BlackLightning]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, we certainly need to know what drove him to involve himself in this shit hole of a continent in the first place and what connects him to Aegon and Illyrio, etc. But his voice grew darker when he talked to Kevan the same way it did when he told Tyrion the story of his castration. What he told Kevan was the truth - not all of it, but part of it.

And that part of the truth is going to turn him against Aegon should the boy ever fuck things up. Now, no idea if he will do that, of course. But he could. And then Varys might end up in team Dany or team Jon after all.

Doubt it.

By that time, after all the damage he has caused, neither Dany nor Jon will want him.

I think Varys is actually female. Not only that but a Blackfyre.

 

[Ilissa]

4 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Not only dynastic problems. But, contrary to popular belief, people in the medieval era did in fact marry for love. Even the highborn people did. Having bastard children was undesirable, shameful and, frankly, deeply unfair to everyone involved. People weren't at all how they were now; marriage was paramount. For both men and women. If you feel something strong for the person of the opposite sex, if you envision yourself growing and living with them for years...you marry. Simple.

I do not argue with that  

I just mean, they had to be married regardless of their feelings. In the first meeting on the Dragonstone. This is how politics was made in the Middle Ages.

[Figdoni]

1 hour ago, Hodor&Bran said:

The look on Eurons face in the scenes for next week.  Did you notice his look of surprize/fear?  He doesn't fear a dragon.  What IS he seeing out there on the water?  Yara?  

Or the Golden Company laying waste to his Iron fleet, after they desert Cersei?

[Old Rusty Coin]

3 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

It's very survival of the fittest. The throne belongs to whomever can claim it, take it and hold it. 

So far Cersei is a champ. 

I'm beginning to think the series might just have a Blake's 7 ending.  Which would be glorious indeed.

[BlackLightning]

Just now, Ilissa said:

I do not argue with that  

I just mean, they had to be married regardless of their feelings. In the first meeting on the Dragonstone. This is how politics was made in the Middle Ages.

Maybe not in the first meeting.

But they definitely should have been married on Dragonstone. To, at least, give Operation Boat-Sex actual context and gravitas.

[Greenmonsterff]

18 minutes ago, BlueNightzx said:

on a side note, i found really stunning how much more beautiful Missandei looked, and maybe even more regal, than both cersei and Dany.

What?! Sounds more like you have a crush. Cersei looked very regal and villainous. Dany, as well. 

[Cron]

11 minutes ago, LadyBlackwater said:

I just hope Gendry gets to be happy in the end. 

I'm still confidently predicting Arya and Gendry wiil end up together.

She just has to do one final mission, then she'll return to him, I predict (or he'll follow after her, I guess)

[Ilissa]

7 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Not only dynastic problems. But, contrary to popular belief, people in the medieval era did in fact marry for love. Even the highborn people did. Having bastard children was undesirable, shameful and, frankly, deeply unfair to everyone involved. People weren't at all how they were now; marriage was paramount. For both men and women. If you feel something strong for the person of the opposite sex, if you envision yourself growing and living with them for years...you marry. Simple.

This is another plot hole.

The Northmen would have pushed for a marriage the moment Jon and Dany walked into Winterfell. Statesmen as accomplished as Tyrion and Varys or even ones like Davos would have been pressing for a marriage back in season 7 on Dragonstone. Melisandre vaguely hinted at it but even she should have pressed the issue. 

And I also want to say. What about books? Martin told the screenwriters the finale of his story. What about marriage in a book? I thought Martin for realism. Such tension will look doubly stupid in the book.

[Figdoni]

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Daenerys was right.

Jon should have kept his mouth shut.

But you're right. I don't like how they are pitting Daenerys against Jon at all. It doesn't make sense. The logical solution for all of this was for them to get married. Co-rule or not. Getting married solves all of their issues.

In the books, Aegon and Daenerys are going to have problems not because of their own personal issues with each other. No, they are going to have problems because of people like Arianne, JonCon, Tyrion, Marwyn and Varys whispering, intriguing and flitting about.

Why should he keep his mouth shut? He’s spent his life being lied to, the truth matters to someone like Jon, as does being honest with those he loves.... and if she can’t manage to get the people of Westeros to follow her, when Jon has bent the knee and doesn’t want the throne.... then really... she shouldn’t rule coz she hasn’t got what it takes!

it may be logical to you, but Dany was very clear that the only way Jon gets to be with her is if he keeps quiet about his parentage... this pretty much proves she doesn’t know him and therefore doesn’t love him... at least not nearly as much as she loves power

[Ilissa]

5 minutes ago, Cron said:

I'm still confidently predicting Arya and Gendry wiil end up together.

She just has to do one final mission, then she'll return to him, I predict (or he'll follow after her, I guess)

I hope so! Such a nice couple.

[hallam]

8 minutes ago, Cron said:

I'm still confidently predicting Arya and Gendry wiil end up together.

She just has to do one final mission, then she'll return to him, I predict (or he'll follow after her, I guess)

If Sansa and Tyrion end up on the Iron Throne, Arya will have to be the Stark in Winterfell. 

[Skills]

3 minutes ago, Figdoni said:

Why should he keep his mouth shut? He’s spent his life being lied to, the truth matters to someone like Jon, as does being honest with those he loves.... and if she can’t manage to get the people of Westeros to follow her, when Jon has bent the knee and doesn’t want the throne.... then really... she shouldn’t rule coz she hasn’t got what it takes!

it may be logical to you, but Dany was very clear that the only way Jon gets to be with her is if he keeps quiet about his parentage... this pretty much proves she doesn’t know him and therefore doesn’t love him... at least not nearly as much as she loves power

Great take.

I think ultimately Jon will find this an unacceptable situation.   I predict Dany surprises everyone and finds a way to take the throne without killing a bunch of civilians...largely because I hope that they don't cheapen her story by making her out as another mad Targ.

Jon refuses to live a lie as his entire life to this point as been a lie.  He will not perpetuate it, no matter how much Dany wants him to. He self exiled himself to the North to be with the Free Folk.  There's your bittersweet ending. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by Skills