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[Spoilers] Episode 804 Discussion


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9 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

It's entirely reasonable that if you've read the books, the show is a crushing disappointment. If you don't read but love 2D characters and special effects at the expense of a plot, you'll love the show.

Latest episode has a IMDB-rating of 6,8, which is breathtakingly low compared to the second lowest scored episode (Unbent, Unbowed, Ubroken) with it's 8,1.

Show watchers overall don't like where the show is heading towards either, evidently. 
I haven't read the books, but love (most of) the show, and I consider that calling what we're currently getting a "crushing disappointment" to be quite the understatement.

Not in my wildest dreams (or perhaps I should say nightmares), could I ever imagine that the show would end as badly as it's set up to do. 

Edited by MinscS2
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On 5/6/2019 at 9:05 PM, House Cambodia said:

Hmm, I saw it the opposite. Sansa stated with great certainty that Dany with her dragon would defeat and execute Cercei very soon - that's what made him change his mind and rush towards his sister.

or maybe she was referring to Arya)))

I agree that Sansa was talking about Dany burning King's Landing, but maybe, just maybe she was referring to Arya executing Cersei...she even said "execute" rather than "burn"

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2 minutes ago, Gala said:

or maybe she was referring to Arya)))

I agree that Sansa was talking about Dany burning King's Landing, but maybe, just maybe she was referring to Arya executing Cersei...she even said "execute" rather than "burn"

Yes, that's equally possible. I've been arguing in another thread that Arya didn't just slope off - she'd have chewed things over with Sansa before heading for KL.

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Why does Euron look a bit surprised in next week’s preview when he looks up at the sky?

He’s already seen Drogon fly about so that’s hardly surprising to him. It’s a far fetched theory put forward by some, but the thought of more dragons showing up and Euron’s sphincter tightening would be awesome. Drogon did disappear in one of the previous seasons, to lay eggs perhaps? 

 

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On 5/7/2019 at 5:14 AM, D2procon said:

I see a lot of people complaining about Cersei not attacking Danny and her mini crew

 

Qyburn tells Cersei she has the support of the common people in Kings Landing. They support her claim, even though the Targaryen should have the stronger claim, they see Dany as an outsider and invader.

 

Cersei doesn't just want the support of the common people, she wants the support of the Seven Kingdoms and all the important Lords that hold power throughout the land. So she proceeds to tell Qyburn "open the gates to the Red Keep, if [Daenerys] wants the Iron Throne, she'll have to burn thousands of innocents on her way here" (not an exact quote as I don't remember the exact phrasing, but go watch the scene yourself)

 

She certainly could've ballistae'd them down when they were there to parlay, it's not like morality is holding her back. It's that she'll be able to solidify the support of the common people and inspire the support of the powerful Lords throughout the land if she gets Dany to kill innocents first. This is important. The Crown is severely in debt, and even after killing "the invaders", one needs to build allies in order to survive. This may be her best shot at improving her own image and the positioning of the Crown relative to the Iron Bank and other powers within Westeros. 

 

This is also why she executed Missandei in that scene. Other than the fact that Cersei's just evil and cruel, that move was intended to provoke Dany into ruining her reputation in Kings Landing while rebranding Cersei as the saviour of the people by having her go on a blood-thirsty rampage (which is what everything is pointing to in Episode 5) before killing her off.

Since when is Cersei's claim legitimate? What claim??

And since when does she need the support of the people? She remained all powerful when she blew up their vatican, pope, half the nobility, and the legitimate and loved Queen along with the house that was feeding the people of the city.

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Was gonna start a new topic then decided this question prob'ly isn't topic worthy... 

So what happens to the Glovers now that they refused to honor the call to arms from Winterfell? Wouldn't imagine there's enough time to show anything regarding them but I would have thought it was worthy of at least a post battle mention.

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Some vague random thoughts. Maybe too long a post for a general thread. But it’s been a while.

Every episode in this season (so far) feels like something… maybe not unique (ep 801 demonstratively echoes 101; ep 3 mirrors all the major battles from the Blackwater to Castle Black, Hardhome, the frozen lake etc.) but definitely… well, peculiar. Themes and motives are the same, the characters are the same (mostly), but there’s something off. Can’t tell exactly what. The rhythm, the pace – sometimes jarringly uneven? The feeling that all the main lines have to converge somehow and now the time is almost up? The overall sense of urgency?  

And ep 4 is maybe the strangest (so far). It’s like a patchwork of very different pieces, “an alloy of iron and beef”, a combination not of ice and fire but of some totally disparate elements. Maybe they still can be combined meaningfully and smoothly: a funeral pyre, a bawdy feast, one or two (or three) love scenes, a reunion of sorts, some conspiracies, a surprise naval battle, a weird (but impressive) negotiations on/near the city walls… But it looks like an oversized teaser trailer, though some scenes may seem unduly prolonged. The feast in WF’s Great Hall is one example. Yes, the lines of conflict between Dany and Sansa, Dany and Jon etc. should be shown. And the sight of drunken Brienne perhaps is necessary too. But the time and the timing could be used more productively. There are some conversations, at least. Though I agree with those who think that Sansa could reveal Jon’s secret to Tyrion onscreen, not offscreen. Plots and schemes (“they are the same thing”) are back, it’s very good, but we have only two episodes left, abt. 80 mins each, yes, but is it enough to untie / cut all the main knots? I’m afraid there will be more cutting than untying.

The fundamental problem of “what is more important – the magical confrontation or the human one” was resolved in ep 3. Apparently we couldn’t have it both ways, there must be only one main antagonist in the final (and now we know her name is Cersei, right?). But the conflict (as it is shown in ep 4) is multifaceted now and we surely can’t predict with absolute certainty how all the major players (Cersei, Dany, Jon, Sansa, Varys, Tyrion, even Euron) will deal with it. The show has omitted the part about the valonqar for a reason so maybe it’s safe to say that Jaime and Cersei will die in each other’s hands. Jaime says something about his wish to die in his beloved’s hands – in his conversation with Bronn after their arrival to Dorne. By the way, for now Bronn’s path is season 8 remains slightly contrived. Too straightforward, maybe. This stuff about one / two castles is being repeated too often (some fanfics suggested Bronn will get the Twins). But the very presence of Bronn during this late stage of the game is interesting. And anyway, the show has to pace its killings: from abt. 35 named characters (in eps 1–2) there are abt. 26 left. No more Sept-of-Baelor-like explosions. Or… what? We do remember Bran’s vision(s) of a dragon’s shadow over King’s Landing and I guess it was not prediction (fore-shadowing) for ep 707 when Daenerys arrives to Dragonpit.

But in the show there’s another important (more important) vision – Dany’s vision in the House of Undying. (Its book version is very complex and couldn’t be adequately translated to the screen.) But if the main part of it (“Daenerys almost touches the Iron Throne but there’s Snow on it”) turns out to be true it will be somewhat disappointing. Though we know that the showrunners not always remember all the details of all the prophecies. Maggy the Frog predicts (foretells?) that Cersei will have three children but in the show-verse she has four (her firstborn, from Robert, had dark hair and died very early – so this child doesn’t count?). And now she’s expecting the fifth? We still don’t know the truth. A miscarriage would be shown or at least heavily hinted at. One could argue that she freely drinks wine now but this evidence is indirect at best. It’s hard to tell (from her face) what she thinks when in ep 4 Tyrion says “Think about your children” (or something like that). Maybe it will be revealed that she’s not with child (anymore?).

It’s very refreshing to see Varys scheming again but does he have to do it so… glaringly loud? And of course Dany could end up dead but if it’s Varys who does (orchestrates) the deed it will be not fitting. The Mountain must be killed by his brother, Cersei must be killed by her valonqar (but, then again, there’s no such line in the show), I was thinking Dany will die in childbirth but maybe there’s no time left for it. Of all the pregnancies, only Gilly’s is a sure thing now. Arya would drink moon tea immediately. Don’t know what Brienne would do.

About Brienne + Jaime. Well, it seems like a decent rendition of all these countless fanfics. Like Arya + Gendry, though I don’t remember a fanfic where Arya refuses Lord Gendry’s marriage proposal. Totally makes sense, character-wise. And in the final she sails away across the Sunset Sea (see the final of Season 4), yes? Don’t know what Brienne will do now. Ride to KL with Podrick? But she has to stay at Sansa’s side, no?

Sansa’s story is one of the strangest this season. (Across seasons and among all the main characters too.) There are many brilliant experts on book/show-Sansa’s nature and motivations here so I wouldn't go into these depths. But I have a feeling (all this post is about feelings. intuitions etc.) that sometimes she could be more consistent as a character, more articulate about her wishes. I have read many posts here about her spilling Jon’s secret to Tyrion. It’s one of the most popular topics concerning ep 4 and it’s really worth discussing.

To me, it’s much more interesting than all the thoughts about NK’s weak spots. Magic fades away from the world, NK and his army are destroyed forever, Melisandre dies of old age (well, it’s a suicide of sorts), the dragons are reduced to Drogon who really can’t be a gamechanger because this saga is about people. Even NK was killed due to human skills (with a magical weapon, though: but he’s a magical creature, after all). I always thought one of the main difficulties for GRRM is the need to keep the perfect balance between magical and “human”. Maybe that’s why “The Winds” take so much time to complete. Of course, the show streamlines many plots and subplots (well, it has to), but the principal twists will be the same? Or not? I can see Missandei’s decapitation by Ser Robert Strong in the books. (And I know this opinion is not popular but I think that Emilia Clarke’s face expressions were very… convincing in ep 4.) Maybe the main lines of Tyrion’s final intrigues (such as they are) will be the same, too? Well, it’s too early to say. We are in the territory of  “A Dream of Spring” now, and it’s hard to make book-predictions without “The Winds”. A published Euron’s chapter from “The Winds” develops his image as an evil, merciless, somewhat mysterious figure. Of course show-Euron is more 2D, he’s being shown as a capable pirate, though (his abilities to abduct people in/from the sea are superb). We should not forget about Yara (she’s building more ships?). Cersei is Jaime’s (not Arya’s, after all), unGregor is Sandor’s (in ep 4 it is stated bluntly: “unfinished business”), and Euron is Yara’s. There could be twists, of course.

OK, but what about Dany and Jon? Some think that all this talk about True North seems to suggest that Jon will eventually move there and reunites with Ghost and Tormund. Would it be bittersweet? I really can’t see Jon’s eventual fate from here. He died once so he (unlike Beric) might live. The main point: I’m not sure Jon’s actions in Season 8 (as well as his words, interactions with others…) are interesting enough. He lacks something. He’s never been a great thinker but he always was a man of action. His role in the Battle for the Dawn was not insignificant (he unites people, he – among others – organizes the defense, he rides a war-dragon…), but now’s the time for the game of thrones again. And his role in this game isn’t clear. He says again and again that he doesn’t want to sit on the Iron Throne. And Dany doesn't believe him. She can’t understand it.

I think book-Daenerys has much more depth than her show version (well, it’s not surprising: not all her thoughts, feelings and visions could be shown onscreen, and the books have more space anyway). But whether the showrunners are really trying to depict her as a Mad Queen… I agree (to some extent), there’re signs, but I think she stays on the brink for now. The final scene of ep 4 could make her take a step into the abyss. But it would be too predictable.

 

Anyway, I think it was a decent episode. I liked it more than “The Long Night”: here are more conversations, more intrigue, more conspiracies. It’s pity there’re only two eps left.

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yep, typical tv tropes all around.

The callbacks, self references, echoes, or pop references, are now a thing on every fucking american tv show. 

Too bad this is a fantastical medieval Europe that does not work with the constant presentism.

I expected more, specially last season of the very popular and expensive got.

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9 hours ago, Pumpkin G. Snark said:

OK, but what about Dany and Jon? Some think that all this talk about True North seems to suggest that Jon will eventually move there and reunites with Ghost and Tormund. Would it be bittersweet? I really can’t see Jon’s eventual fate from here. He died once so he (unlike Beric) might live. The main point: I’m not sure Jon’s actions in Season 8 (as well as his words, interactions with others…) are interesting enough. He lacks something. He’s never been a great thinker but he always was a man of action. His role in the Battle for the Dawn was not insignificant (he unites people, he – among others – organizes the defense, he rides a war-dragon…), but now’s the time for the game of thrones again. And his role in this game isn’t clear. He says again and again that he doesn’t want to sit on the Iron Throne. And Dany doesn't believe him. She can’t understand it.

John is another chapter that is quite disappointing but I guess most viewers will be happy just seeing him making it out of this mess. But as a character, at least in the show, his true identity is nothing more than a point of conflict for the throne.

But I am not surprised. For example Beric was resurrected so many times in order to save Arya in the corridor? (He served his purpose as Melisandre said). And we are like: "And that was all?"  

Let's say that Jon served his purpose bringing the Widlings to safety, taking Winterfell, then dooming them all  (because how else would the wall fall as the show runners said) and finally killing the Mad Queen.  

I don't know its really devastating to see the potential of the characters and how its wasted. 

Edited by Nightwish
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What the hell was Dany doing with her fleet? Were they invading King's Landing, or setting up a blockade? Or were they just randomly sailing somewhere, from Winterfell in the previous scene to sailing near the coast of the Crownlands? If she was doing a naval invasion, she clearly let the wrong people in charge. Let's go back to the Battle of the Blackwater and picture how it was performed in comparison. Where were the drums, the soldiers shaking by nervosity and seasickness? The people in King's Landing, fearing for their lives as most come to understand they won't make it through the night. 

And no wildfire? Cersei could have obliterated the entire fleet if she wanted, she is a pyromaniac just like the mad King and didn't hesitate to burn down the sept of Baelor and most of the nobility in King's Landing. 

And who was commanding Dany's fleet? Greyworm? When did he attend a naval academy? This battle was just begging for Davos to plan it, he'd know what to look out for.

Also, Dany chose to not wait until her army was at full strength before she attempted to SIEGE a massive city that has never been breached, which is reinforced by mercenaries vast siege preperations. Wtf

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31 minutes ago, Herthallen said:

Also, Dany chose to not wait until her army was at full strength before she attempted to SIEGE a massive city that has never been breached, which is reinforced by mercenaries vast siege preperations. Wtf

That wasn't a siege, it was a parley to try to get Missendei back and offer Cercei terms she wouldn't accept to morally justify (to Dany) the burning of human shields in KL. They're waiting for Jon and the main army to get down the King's Road as we speak (type).

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5 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

That wasn't a siege, it was a parley to try to get Missendei back and offer Cercei terms she wouldn't accept to morally justify (to Dany) the burning of human shields in KL. They're waiting for Jon and the main army to get down the King's Road as we speak (type).

I think he means the bit before she got captured, like when they were at sea, were they going straight to kings landing?

 

its also a question of mine because didn’t they say something about going from winter fell to some other port, which I assumed was where Yara was? Is that where they got the ships then set off from there? This obviously happened off screen but I can’t remember what the exact plan was for this ‘smaller army’ dany mentioned 

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9 minutes ago, Filthymouf said:

I think he means the bit before she got captured, like when they were at sea, were they going straight to kings landing?

 

its also a question of mine because didn’t they say something about going from winter fell to some other port, which I assumed was where Yara was? Is that where they got the ships then set off from there? This obviously happened off screen but I can’t remember what the exact plan was for this ‘smaller army’ dany mentioned 

No, Yara's the other side of the continent. Iron Islands are off the west coast. Dany's fleet that she brought from  Essos was sailing from White Harbour (? the port off the northeast in the North) down the east coast to her Targaryan base at Dragonstone.  They weren't going to attack Kings Landing or engage Euron's fleet with the few ships and men she had.

Edited by House Cambodia
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12 hours ago, Pinn said:

Is anyone else tired of Euron showing up undetected and wiping everyone out? 

Absolutely, I have a theory for this though, D&D have clearly lost interest in completing this show with any sense of dignity and a complete lack of respect for the source material, the fans and even themselves. They are interested and completely focused on (butchering) their new Star Wars project (it will have potential to make The Last Jedi seem ok by comparison) This is where the confusion is lying, hear me out, I think they are mixing up fictional universes. They think they making Star Trek when in fact they are going to be making Star Wars. This has bled into Game of Thrones Season 8 (along with whatever other Sci-Fi genre devices they need to further their weak plot and idiotic writing) The only way to explain this is;

Euron has made first contact with the Klingons and acquired cloaking devices back in Season 6. This is the only way Dany and her Dragons could not have seen Euron's fleet, in addition, they've been gifted with advanced guided targeting systems so that ships on moving water can hit dragons flying at high velocity (targeting systems must have malfunctioned slightly when they tried to hit Drogon), in addition to all this technology, they added in automatically reloading, rapid fire Scorpions. This wasn't enough though, they've also crossed dimensions with other Sci-fi universes and introduced high velocity rail gun technology to power the the scorpions, this is the only way they can completely obliterate timber beamed war galleys instead of simply being lodged into the hull as logic dictates? Finally to answer your question, Euron was gifted a satellite/tracking system, he has eyes on the whole of Westeros (the world actually) and can track ship, dragon and people movements, this is the most basic of the technology he's been gifted but he's used it to great effect. He's now playing in 'God Mode' 

Honestly, I can just about (begrudgingly) accept in Season 7 that the Ravens and Dragons were fitted with high bypass Turbo fan engines to get around to quickly but Euron's 'God Mode' is something out of a bad Sci-Fi novel. D&D need therapy and a few years to reflect on what they've done. They should also read a few books on a guide medieval customs, weaponry and technology. Arrogant beyond comprehension. They deserve all of the hate and ridicule they're getting.

 

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Qyburns new improved Scorpions are the equivalent the Last Jedi's sudden realization that a small cruiser ramming a gigantic dreadnought in lightspeed will destroy the dreadnought. It's a moment so big (read: dumb) that it will forever have redefined what warfare means after this point, and makes all warfare made before this point seem silly and trite. It's a deux ex machina that basically ruins everything we thought we knew about that universe.

In Star Wars, there's no point in building massive ships anymore, when a single small freighter (piloted by a droid) can simply destroy something worth 1000 times it's own cost by lightspeed-ramming it. "Oh the Empire built a new Deathstar? Quickly, evacuate a med-cruiser and send it to the system at lightspeed."

In aSoIaF, not only are dragons more or less pointless now, but warfare by land and sea is also redefined. Westeros skipped the gunpowder cannon-era by essentially creating ballistas that are way more powerful, accurate and easier to manufacture. Whoever win's after this last battle should quickly seize the moment and conquer the rest of Planetos. What can the Free Cities and their armies/fleets do against a westerosi fleet and army equipped with the new Scorpions? Absolutely nothing. It's the equivalent of being in a medieval world with a never-ending stream of WW2-tanks at your disposal. 

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