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23 minutes ago, Ilissa said:

If Jon does not become king, what is the point of R + L?

Many master's theses could be written addressing that. Countless many reasons come to mind. What about the lesson it teaches about love being the death of honor? Think about Ned, what he went through because of his love for his sister.

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2 minutes ago, Figdoni said:

Peace? You mean for the sake of Danaerys’ ambitions...

there is no guarantee that Danaerys can bring peace, no more than Jon or any other leader who claims to want peace. 

If “peace” = “do as I say, regardless of whether it goes against your sense of truth, honour and what is right”, then it’s not really peace, it’s the kind of autocratic rule that any tinpot tyrant aims for.

He shouldn’t respect her concerns, imho, because she is putting her ambitions ahead of what is right, and ahead of what is true.

to paraphrase Sansa in the last episode.. the most heroic thing we can do is look truth in the face... I think she’s right. Dany is being a coward. 

That is not autocratic. What is it is called rule of law. Every single last communal organization of humans that exists or has ever existed -- from prehistoric family units to modern nation-states -- has had a "do as I say or face the consequences" clause in their code of conduct.

Every single last one of them.

If you find rule of law and the law's ability to punish those who trepass said rule of law autocratic, then you're probably an anarchist who wants everyone to be free to do as they feel more or less.

She is not just putting her ambitions ahead of "what is right." She is also putting the greater good and peace ahead of it. She is also prioritizing the love they have for each other over it.

Frankly, Daenerys is walking in Ned Stark's footsteps.

Should Ned Stark have told Robert Baratheon, Jon Arryn and/or Tywin Lannister about Jon? Should he have told Catelyn?

Daenerys Targaryen? A coward? LMAO never mind, I'll stop right there. There's no use in talking about the beauty of the Mona Lisa with person who is blind and deaf.

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4 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

He did in A Dance with Dragons.

Only because it was an old uncle and a young niece. That's the source of the power problem.  When they're the same age, it doesn't matter.

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3 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Only because it was an old uncle and a young niece. That's the source of the power problem.

True. I'm sure that there will be some awkwardness there on Jon's part. Daenerys won't care. In fact, she'll probably feel a bit relieved.

3 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

When they're the same age, it doesn't matter.

When they're the same age, they are more like cousins.

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39 minutes ago, Ilissa said:

If Jon does not become king, what is the point of R + L?

Agreed.  What is the big build up about him being a secret Targ for, as well as bringing him back from the dead about if he doesn’t become king?  It makes no sense.  It’s would be bad storytelling, IMO, but then maybe that is what this all is. 

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3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

He did in A Dance with Dragons.

He created a politically advantageous marriage. Advantageous for Stannis' northern campaign. It was not about protection from abuse)

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11 minutes ago, DebL66 said:

Agreed.  What is the big build up about him being a secret Targ for, as well as bringing him back from the dead about if he doesn’t become king?  It makes no sense.  It’s would be bad storytelling, IMO, but then maybe that is what this all is. 

No, it would be about a man who cast off both the bastard AND king labels to pursue his own version of happiness - that is assuming my prediction of him getting up far North with the Free Folk comes true.  He made his own destiny.

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It seems they're laying it on thick that Daenerys will never be a Queen and she'll be killed for being mad. I don't necessarily see Jon as the King but perhaps he will be a saviour of the realm which is an important feat. I don't know how it exactly fits with him being brought back alive, perhaps it's nothing to do with kingship but being a hero or being an important connection in the chain of events.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

That is not autocratic. What is it is called rule of law. Every single last communal organization of humans that exists or has ever existed -- from prehistoric family units to modern nation-states -- has had a "do as I say or face the consequences" clause in their code of conduct.

Every single last one of them.

If you find rule of law and the law's ability to punish those who trepass said rule of law autocratic, then you're probably an anarchist who wants everyone to be free to do as they feel more or less.

She is not just putting her ambitions ahead of "what is right." She is also putting the greater good and peace ahead of it. She is also prioritizing the love they have for each other over it.

Frankly, Daenerys is walking in Ned Stark's footsteps.

Should Ned Stark have told Robert Baratheon, Jon Arryn and/or Tywin Lannister about Jon? Should he have told Catelyn?

Daenerys Targaryen? A coward? LMAO never mind, I'll stop right there. There's no use in talking about the beauty of the Mona Lisa with person who is blind and deaf.

Blind and deaf? Duuude, its a tv show... have some perspective. I didn't come at you insulting you.
We have very different opinions.

You speak of rule of law, but firstly, Dany isn't on the throne just yet, so she doesn't have the power nor the infrastructure to enact laws for the moment. IF she decides to enact laws that state that she gets to choose which versions of reality that people are allowed to utter, or face consequences... well, that just reinforces the whole tinpot tyrant image don't you think? Even Cersei hasn't taken her rule to that extreme.

"The greater good" as far as Dany is concerned, cannot involve anything other than getting her way. 
What if Jon would make a better ruler? Has she considered this? She can see that people are drawn to him and follow him naturally. She can see that he's just, honorable, courageous. She claimed to trust him more than anyone. She also knows he has a stronger claim for the throne... yet no part of her thinks "hmm, which of us two would be a better ruler... since EITHER one of us ruling means my family is back on the throne & we have vanquished the usurpers & righted a wrong"..... Or does she think "hey we can rule together, as a married couple, coz that would help bring peace"...
Nope... Dany's "greater good" can't extend to even contemplating either of these versions of peace, coz it doesn't involve her having absolute power.

She's happy to burn innocent people to get it. She's happy to force the ones she "loves" to behave in a way that goes against their morals to get it. Happy to lie. She's happy to send exhausted and injured troops into battle to get it.
This behaviour is no better than Cersei... why on earth would anyone believe it can bring peace?

And yes, She is being cowardly in trying to stifle and smother the truth. Cowardly by being afraid to be compared to Jon. Why? Coz deep down, she knows she's lacking as a ruler.
She is afraid!
Her strongest claim to the throne is who she says she is.... ' Danaery's Targaryan, last of her name, rightful ruler....'.... but she's not that person at all... so on that note, why should anyone believe anything she says if she can't stand by the most basic of truth.

Edited by Figdoni

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30 minutes ago, DebL66 said:

Agreed.  What is the big build up about him being a secret Targ for, as well as bringing him back from the dead about if he doesn’t become king?  It makes no sense.  It’s would be bad storytelling, IMO, but then maybe that is what this all is. 

Martin has been doing much more with this than you realize or acknowledge. There are many, many layers here.

This isn't some cheap comic-book plot or even some Young Adult schlock fantasy novel where what you say would make sense. 

And if you plan to tell GRRM how bad his writing is, I can advise you right now not to bother.

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18 minutes ago, Skills said:

No, it would be about a man who cast off both the bastard AND king labels to pursue his own version of happiness - that is assuming my prediction of him getting up far North with the Free Folk comes true.  He made his own destiny.

No. It would make r+l=j the most stupid thing in the universe. 

It's only use would be to drive a wedge between Jon and Dany and drive her mad... So that Jon goes living in the wild north... He slept most of his life in beds but would be happy freezing in the middle of nowhere

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Figdoni said:

And yes, She is being cowardly in trying to stifle and smother the truth. Cowardly by being afraid to be compared to Jon. Why? Coz deep down, she knows she's lacking as a ruler. She is afraid! Her strongest claim to the throne is who she says she is.... ' Danaery's Targaryan, last of her name, rightful ruler....'.... but she's not that person at all... so on that note, why should anyone believe anything she says if she can't stand by the most basic of truth.

That's very much another facet of what Martin is doing here by making Jon have not only the stronger claim by birth order but also being a more just and capable rule than she is: he's showing what seeing this does to Dany. It puts her to the test. Will she pass it? She's failing right now, although her act with Gendry shows that she can learn and improve.

But fast enough now? Seems unlikely. Better no ruler than her.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

That's very much another facet of what Martin is doing here by making Jon have not only the stronger claim by birth order but also being a more just and capable rule than she is: he's showing what seeing this does to Dany. It puts her to the test. Will she pass it? She's failing right now, although her act with Gendry shows that she can learn and improve.

But fast enough now? Seems unlikely. Better no ruler than her.

Totally. Instead of looking at him and thinking he is someone to emulate or be inspired by, she's instead asking him to be less like that, and shed his principles.... (to make her look better, really.)

She only made Gendry a Lord to win his permanent loyalty. It was a political move that Sansa caught & gave a helluva look at her over. He was on team Stark... She switched him to hers. It was cunning, I'll give her that... (Littlefinger would be impressed)

Some part of me had a moment thinking "Ooooh, what if her next move is to announce that she's legitimising Jon Snow to Lord Stark, in front of everyone?".. coz that would have been a hell of an awkward and crafty move with it still being mostly secret. 
It'd then be down to Bran, Sam or Jon to pipe up... and Jon might've said nothing. Bran's probably too busy staring into the fire to hear & not sure where Sam was at that point. Prob reading books with Gilly :) .... ;)

Edited by Figdoni

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Sacrifices to the Drowned God were apparently made by slitting the throats of victims and tossing them into the sea. This reputedly made the Drowned God stronger.  Rhaegal certainly had his throat slashed and he plunged into the sea.  What if the Drowned God considered this a sacrifice and brings Rhaegal back on behalf of Yara, not only to assist her but to punish Euron, who shows contempt and lack of faith towards the Drowned God.  Even Euron's words, that he saw Rhaegal fall into the sea with his own eyes shows that he doesn't even give credence, nor consider the implications of what he witnessed and the potential. 

Maybe a crack pot theory but there is this from the Lore:  "What is dead may never die" is a common saying in the religion of the Drowned God on the Iron Islands. The answer to the phrase is "But rises again harder and stronger." In the episode the phrase is begun by Theon Greyjoy during his baptism and completed by the Drowned Priest conducting the ceremony.

Probably just wishful thinking on my part.  :/

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Posted (edited)

WTF?!?

GRRM: Jaime left Cersei 4 seasons ago and he's more interested in counting pennies nailed to a tree than helping her.

D&D: Jaime is addicted to Cersei.

Everytime I think they cannot destroy what's left of his character, Dumb & Dumber prove me wrong. They erradicated Jaime's arc, intelligence, wit, agency and everything good about him, turning him into his twin's satelite. I don't think he's addicted to Cersei, they are!

 

 

Unless, it's one of these weird fake-outs, because PLOT TWIST! SHOCK! SHOCKING PLOT TWIST!

And I blame GRRM too, because he's more into stupid side books than finishing the main storyline.

I HATE THIS RUBBISH.

 

Oh, I never cared about Jon or direwolves, but poor Ghost being left behind left me really upset.

Edited by MarkPierre

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58 minutes ago, MarkPierre said:

Oh, I never cared about Jon or direwolves, but poor Ghost being left behind left me really upset.

Greywind did wonders for Robb in the eyes of his enemies and supporters alike. Such an idiotic decision by DnD with dumb poetic reason. Tho they abandoned direwolf connection with stark children long ago so :/

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1 hour ago, MarkPierre said:

WTF?!?

GRRM: Jaime left Cersei 4 seasons ago and he's more interested in counting pennies nailed to a tree than helping her.

D&D: Jaime is addicted to Cersei.

 

It is as if Sansa was still in love with Joffrey but I still hope that he wanted to make Brienne to hate him, that he is on a mission to kill Cersei.

Still hope. 

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So, imagine you are an evil Queen.  You have about 50 ballistae on the wall of your city and several hundred longbowmen.  Your arch-enemy is outside with only about 100 warriors and her last dragon who is sitting on the ground, and her closest advisors including your hated brother who you have just put a very pricy hit on, all within arrow range and definitely within ballista range. Your consort has just killed a flying dragon from the deck of a moving ship with far fewer ballistae than you have now.

These people have come to depose you. You're obviously not concerned with maintaining your reputation and honor, because your rep is already irredeemable and you have no honor, and you've just ordered a young woman decapitated and thrown off the wall.

What would you do?

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