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9 hours ago, Figdoni said:

 

2. I think he’s resigned to the fact that he and Cersei are the same. Whatever fate she has ahead of her, he intends to be by her side... if that means they’re both doomed, so be it, And it may even be a relief for Jaime. He both loves and loathes her, emotions tied together like the twinship between them. But I personally haven’t given up hope of him being the valonqar yet

It’s the final part of his redemption.  Forgiving himeself for everything that has happened since he pushed Bran.  He might try to kill Cersei, he feels responsible for everything that has happened.  He realizes that his sister is too far gone now,  and he knows he could have stopped her.  No matter what happens in King’s Landing, he is not leaving.  

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45 minutes ago, TNTW said:

Wonder what Dany whispered to dead Jorah? Probably never find out.

"Tis a damned shame. Had you survived this battle I was going to ride you like a Golden Company elephant."

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The minute Jon said he was not riding Rhaegal I should have known the dragon was doomed.  

I see no sense in Jon separating from Ghost.  They act as if there is no bond whatsoever between Jon and ghost.  I know they are playing down the warg bond on the show, but still, Jon seems quite indifferent and that is rings like a false note to me.  

Daeny gets a raw deal.  Over and over she is expected to absorb blow after blow with equanimity and generosity and immediate perfect understanding. 

She has put everything on the line for this war and still her northern allies, distrust her, dislike her and clearly only half-heartedly support her claim if at all.  Now that the north is safe they are ready to disband.    No credit and no loyalty.  I don't mean credit for winning or losing the battle, i mean earned loyalty. 

The north seems quite happy to use up her armies, "Wham bam, get the fuck out of the North!"  Which by the way is still a hereditary monarchy even if Daeny dissolves the seven kingdoms.  It will not a constitutional republic with equal rights for the small folk.  

Even Smaller Finger (aka Sansa) is actively undermining her.    Jon who probably does lover her has also been using her from day one.  They both know it.  She is absolutely isolated and I don't see where she alienated anyone so much as, with the exception of the people she brought from Essos, they are just more concerned with their own issues.   

In the game of thrones rival claims equal intrigue.  Varys and Tyrion began scheming the very moment they found out.  Daeny was right, Jon should have kept his mouth shut.  Ned did not even tell Cat.  That should tell you something.  Once sitting on the Iron Throne things might be different, but in the middle of the war?      

IMO so far Daeny has tried to be wise and tried to be good.  If she seems paranoid, well people have never NOT been trying to kill her.  Her entire life has been lived in real jeopardy.  Any misstep going back to her childhood with Viserys could have resulted in her death. 

She may yet prove crazy.  She hasn't so far.  She deserves a moment to sort things out.  Jorah, most of her army, two dragons and a challenger for the throne, is a great deal to process in a short time. 

She has been on the run all her life because she is a Targaryen a since the death of Viserys, the LAST Targaryen, as far as anyone knew. 

To judge her as if she were just Daeny the stuck up blonde girl is just Daeny hate.      

I hate to see Missandei go.  She is genuinely good and the most beautiful woman on the show, IMO. 

Good for jamie and Brienne but I see it going differently in the books.  

I hope Arya does kill Cersei, or my Sandor kills Cersei and Arya kills Gregor for killing Sandor.  

 

I have always liked Bronn but he was a dick last night.  Not saying he acted out of character, he is a mercenary through and through, but he has never been a twat before.   

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7 minutes ago, Imp Beyond the Wall said:

The minute Jon said he was not riding Rhaegal I should have known the dragon was doomed.  

I see no sense in Jon separating from Ghost.  They act as if there is no bond whatsoever between Jon and ghost.  I know they are playing down the warg bond on the show, but still, Jon seems quite indifferent and that is rings like a false note to me.  

Daeny gets a raw deal.  Over and over she is expected to absorb blow after blow with equanimity and generosity and immediate perfect understanding. 

She has put everything on the line for this war and still her northern allies, distrust her, dislike her and clearly only half-heartedly support her claim if at all.  Now that the north is safe they are ready to disband.    No credit and no loyalty.  I don't mean credit for winning or losing the battle, i mean earned loyalty. 

The north seems quite happy to use up her armies, "Wham bam, get the fuck out of the North!"  Which by the way is still a hereditary monarchy even if Daeny dissolves the seven kingdoms.  It will not a constitutional republic with equal rights for the small folk.  

Even Smaller Finger (aka Sansa) is actively undermining her.    Jon who probably does lover her has also been using her from day one.  They both know it.  She is absolutely isolated and I don't see where she alienated anyone so much as, with the exception of the people she brought from Essos, they are just more concerned with their own issues.   

In the game of thrones rival claims equal intrigue.  Varys and Tyrion began scheming the very moment they found out.  Daeny was right, Jon should have kept his mouth shut.  Ned did not even tell Cat.  That should tell you something.  Once sitting on the Iron Throne things might be different, but in the middle of the war?      

IMO so far Daeny has tried to be wise and tried to be good.  If she seems paranoid, well people have never NOT been trying to kill her.  Her entire life has been lived in real jeopardy.  Any misstep going back to her childhood with Viserys could have resulted in her death. 

She may yet prove crazy.  She hasn't so far.  She deserves a moment to sort things out.  Jorah, most of her army, two dragons and a challenger for the throne, is a great deal to process in a short time. 

She has been on the run all her life because she is a Targaryen a since the death of Viserys, the LAST Targaryen, as far as anyone knew. 

To judge her as if she were just Daeny the stuck up blonde girl is just Daeny hate.      

I hate to see Missandei go.  She is genuinely good and the most beautiful woman on the show, IMO. 

Good for jamie and Brienne but I see it going differently in the books.  

I hope Arya does kill Cersei, or my Sandor kills Cersei and Arya kills Gregor for killing Sandor.  

 

I have always liked Bronn but he was a dick last night.  Not saying he acted out of character, he is a mercenary through and through, but he has never been a twat before.   

100% in agreement with this post, including Missandei, Bronn, etc.

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Anyone know if the music played during the funeral at the beginning was new or a reworking of another theme?  It sounds familiar but I can't place it. 

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13 minutes ago, Red Dragon10 said:

Anyone know if the music played during the funeral at the beginning was new or a reworking of another theme?  It sounds familiar but I can't place it. 

It sounded on my first (and only) viewing to be a drawn out and orchestrated version of the piano theme that played during the Night King's slow walk to irrelevance.

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1 hour ago, A Bong of Ice and Fire said:

That was the best episode of the season by far.  Only 2 left...

I understand but certainly don't agree with a lot of the hate this episode is getting.  Most people ranked it 1/10?  What?  I did hate the fact that we didn't at least get a scene of Jon telling Ghost thanks for being the best boy before he sent him north of the wall, and I did think Euron just sneaking up on Dany's fleet was beyond silly but this show is not known for its naval battles.  I think most of the hate stems from people not liking where the story is going vs the episode itself actually having issues.  This has actually been one of the most logically consistent episodes in recent memory even though most people acted like idiots, they were true to form idiots.

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Posted (edited)

I have some (very misguided) hope that the ending that GRRM provided has yet to be revealed. It appears to me that the end of the story may (thankfully) render the plot (or lack thereof) of this main story less relevant. And what is potentially being set up involves two semi-tinfoil theories that I believe to still be in play.

I think it is very possible that there is indeed a conspiracy from the Citadel to keep magic out of the realms of men. While there has always been terrible internecine conflict on Westeros, the real existential crises have emerged from magical sources (prologue of AGOT, dragons, wildfire, etc.) I think this story will end with magic receding once again (WW are apparently gone, dragons' days appear to be numbered) at the cost of much of the realm. Essentially the history of Westeros will be reset, and magic was the destructive reset button.

To complete the reset, I think it is inevitable that the WW/Others will be created again (or were not totally destroyed.) I think their entire purpose is to serve as man's "memento mori," represented in this world as "valar morghulis" and "winter is coming." And, in the show, this memento was created by the children of the forest; and while they are all gone, let's not forget their main ally is still alive: Bran/3ER. He may be, right now, testing the world of men to see what they do when the specter of death is not hanging over their existence; it looks to me like they will fail that test. Whether or not Jon is the new NK is potentially part of this scenario as well(IMO it could go either way.) If this were to be borne out, its logic was in front of us at the beginning of each episode in the metaphor of the astrolabe.

All this being said, I don't have my hopes up because D & D seem to really struggle with the basic concepts of this story (Gendry Rivers? Really?) but hopefully the final quality will come from what GRRM gave them. Unfortunately I am not holding my breath.

Edited by Chris is my name

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I had heard a few years ago someone say, maybe even GM, there will be no happy ending.  

Boy, are these relationships going to shyte or what?

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14 hours ago, theladyinspring said:

I was bothered by the argument that a marriage won't work because she'd be too strong-willed a woman.

There's a precedent for that in the books (Fire & Blood, I think). A Targaryanprincess fell foul of the family because she fell in love with and insisted on marrying a commoner from some island off the west coast.  Ultimately the marriage failed because he had a weak character and resented his wife for being stronger.

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3 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

There's a precedent for that in the books (Fire & Blood, I think). A Targaryanprincess fell foul of the family because she fell in love with and insisted on marrying a commoner from some island off the west coast.  Ultimately the marriage failed because he had a weak character and resented his wife for being stronger.

I think the events you are thinking of had slightly different implications: Rhaena Targaryen (widow of Maegor the Cruel) married the weakling Androw Farman simply so she could be close to his sister Elissa, who Rhaena allegedly loved. Incidentally it was Elissa Farman who is now widely thought to be the one to bring the dragon eggs to Essos that would ultimately land in the hands of Daenerys at her wedding to Drogo.

I think the logic they were actually trying to put forward in the episode was that neither Jon nor Dany have the character to "rule" together: Daenerys strong-willed and uncompromising and Jon deferential and honorable to a fault. I think it's more of a case of 1 + 1= 0 than any prejudice against strong women (the show clearly doesn't have that.)

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9 hours ago, Danelle said:

It is as if Sansa was still in love with Joffrey but I still hope that he wanted to make Brienne to hate him, that he is on a mission to kill Cersei.

Still hope. 

I sincerly hope not! There is nothing in his arc that point in that direction. And there's nothing good, redemptive or moral in murdering your sibling - whoever they are...

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Just now, MarkPierre said:

I sincerly hope not! There is nothing in his arc that point in that direction. And there's nothing good, redemptive or moral in murdering your sibling - whoever they are...

In my mind there's no doubt Jamie love s Cercei and is off to protect her as much from herself as anyone - and their baby. It's set up that he gets there and confronts Euron over the parentage, isn't it? That's gonna be awkward for Cercei. I thought Tyrion was going to blurt it out in this episode (and so did she, going by her face).

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Posted (edited)

OK. This episode is for me maybe the best of the entire season. It got definitively better, then the last episode, which is not that heard to be honest. 

Things I disliked: 

- Jon not properly saying goodbye to Ghost. After all those years, you might think, he would at least have a more emotional reaction when saying good bye. Or at least, say good bye. Nothing. 

- Jamies arc. It is a up and down with him. This is not a good character developement. Although, he still loves Cersei, and it is clear, that his feelings won't disapear, he left her in the last season. Why change again?

- Jon telling Arya, Bran and Sansa about his parents offscreen. I understand that you can not waste everytime screentime with this story, but the revelation to his family should not be offscreen. 

- So when you sail to war, you won't notice your enemies at the see, who are suposed to have the biggest fleet in the seven kingdoms?

Things that I liked:

- The way they show Daenerys downfall. Since she is in Westeros, she has lost everything she loves. First her first child Viserion, then the Dothraki, then Jorah who has loved and suported her since the beginning. Now she looses her second child Rhaegal. And to top it all, she looses Missandei. And also she learns that she is not the reightfull Queen. I love it, that she wont just turned mad like some people claimed, but that she is rather forced to handle the way she must handle now. Since she is in Westeros, she has lost everything. This strange cold place took everything from her. The tragedy of her story will be, that she must be stoped. But not because she turned mad, but because she was forced to go mad. The clasic story of the hero turning bad. A very tragic story. Very well done.

- Varys. He was basically dead since season 6. In season 8 he finally beginns to use his fucking brain. Yes. Daenerys is not the best ruler die Westeros. And he starts to realise that. But before he knew about Jon, he didn't react, because there was no better solution then Daenerys, who could throw Cersei from her throne. I liked this story. 

- Arya not accepting Gendrys marriage offer. First, because it doesnt fit her character. Second, the Stark girl who is suposed to look like Lyanna refuses to marry a Baratheon. I liked that.

- Sansa still being in character, and not changing her opinion on Daenerys. See finally learned something in the mean time.

All in all, a decent episode. Not season 1-4 quality of course, but for what we have seen the last episodes, an improvement.

Edited by T and A

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12 hours ago, Figdoni said:

2. I think he’s resigned to the fact that he and Cersei are the same. Whatever fate she has ahead of her, he intends to be by her side... if that means they’re both doomed, so be it, And it may even be a relief for Jaime. He both loves and loathes her, emotions tied together like the twinship between them. But I personally haven’t given up hope of him being the valonqar yet

They're not the same - that's the fact. They're opposite of each other.

And, not for even one minute, will I ever believe in that valonqar nonsense - especially that GRRM intented him to be a sibling murderer.

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What sort of stood out for me among all the crippling nonsense was that our favorite Targaryens are terrible pet owners and no shelter should ever allow them to adopt anything in their lives. 

 

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3 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

In my mind there's no doubt Jamie love s Cercei and is off to protect her as much from herself as anyone - and their baby. It's set up that he gets there and confronts Euron over the parentage, isn't it? That's gonna be awkward for Cercei. I thought Tyrion was going to blurt it out in this episode (and so did she, going by her face).

Well, if she's pregnant that's with a Kettleback/Euron. 

And Jaime has just learned she tried to kill him! For the second time! Him loving her 'oh so much' and wanting to protect their imaginary baby doesn't make even a lick of sense! That's just D&D creepy obssession with Cersei (and L.Heady) and dragging that rotting corpse of Jaime's character with it. And direct contradiction to the book story.

"We cannot possibly image how he or anyone couldn't love this amazing character of Carol we made, so let's just continue write Jaime as Larry and her accessory."

That's not love, that's total idiocy.

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