[Spoilers] Episode 804 Discussion

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

2 minutes ago, Chris is my name said:

That is in part true, but regardless of their sire, her children were always her children and never seen as her niece/nephew. . .

I am mocking Cersei's twisted mothering, not trying to make a literal point.  

[TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai]

Don’t you think it was strange that Euron knew who take hostage.  He could have taken Tyrion (the Hand), or Grey Worm (leader of her army).  Instead he took Missandi, the one person whose death would enrage both Dany, but also Grey Worm.  I think there is a spy and it’s either Tyrion or Varys.  Both could betray her for love.  Tyrion loves himself, and Varys loves the Realm/ People.  Now that they know there is a better option than either of those two, they are going to back Jon.

[House Cambodia]

^ I think it was just poor writing.

[Winterz]

Logic is on point to D&D's traditional stupid writing so I'm not going to bother with that.

But I like the way they handled Daenerys' story. I always supported the theory that she was going crazy. And it makes sense to end the White Walkers' armies before ending Daenerys because Dragons and their fire must serve a purpose.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

1 hour ago, TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai said:

Don’t you think it was strange that Euron knew who take hostage.  He could have taken Tyrion (the Hand), or Grey Worm (leader of her army).  Instead he took Missandi, the one person whose death would enrage both Dany, but also Grey Worm.  I think there is a spy and it’s either Tyrion or Varys.  Both could betray her for love.  Tyrion loves himself, and Varys loves the Realm/ People.  Now that they know there is a better option than either of those two, they are going to back Jon.

I think it was happenstance.  Grey Worm sent her ashore for her safety but it did not work out.  

I love that Missandei, the gentlest soul in Westeros was as brave and as fierce as he Little Bear in her last moments.  

I hope that somehow when her evil giant falls that there is some echo of her "Dracarys."

I will not shed a tear if the Red Keep is burned to a cinder. 

Those supporting Cersei are as weak and corrupt a the wise masters of Meereen.   The brother fucker who they gleefully and somewhat sadistically marched through the streets, reveling in her humiliation, and one mass murder later  they turned around and put her on the Iron Throne.  

Daenys should offer them on last chance to walk away from Cersei.   I don't know that she has the power to destroy them en masse  but she doesn't OWE them any more mercy than that.  

  

 

[darksellsword]

Did anyone else notice how Sansa walked over to the hound after he rejected that girl and said "she could have given you some happiness" was that a throwback to how Sandor while tryin to provoke Arya into killing him told her he should've fucked Sansa bloody and  at least he'd have one happy memory ?. The hound then launches into "I heard you got broken in I heard you got broken in rough" wtf is that shit. Who would tell the hound that information and why would he throw that at Sansa like some kind of rape obsessed moron.It's like they have to allow Sansa to justify her whole character arc and virtue signal against anyone that has degraded her even comments she wasn't aware of. They put the hound in that position as some kind of symbol of rape culture

[cirah1712]

2 hours ago, Aderyn said:

That scene with Dany and Jon was so awkward. Dany was all: "Bae let's just ignore the elephant in the room and snog a bit more, then I'm gonna go into full Dom mode and force you to submit, otherwise we're over :)))"

I was mad about Ghost's last scene at first but now I see it as similar to Arya and Nymeria's last scene together. Jon was acknowledging that Ghost is of the North and has no place inside a castle and much less down south. At the same time it gave me the chills because it felt like Jon was giving up an essential part of his identity, or at least a loyal protector. And now he's heading to KL. Definitely seems like a bad omen.

Gendry being legitimised made me feel super touched at first, then it felt like too much fan service. But Arya declining him kind of made up for it, that's definitely something she would do. "That's not me". Although a part of me still wishes that she and Gendry will end up together and that she would define a new way of being a "lady", much like Brienne has.

Sansa & Sandor was probably one of the strongest moments of the whole episode. Her telling Tyrion about Jon's parentage was a really nice touch, really illustrates how much she has learned from the top schemers of Westeros. I just hope that her cunning doesn't result in the death of her cousin.

Multiple meanings, perhaps. It's vague enough for more than one interpretation. It might simply refer to the last "true" Stark, with Sansa being the obvious character to claim that title since she holds Winterfell and seems to be the only one still truly living the northern way. Or it can refer to all the Stark siblings (plus half-Stark Jon), the pack that has survived. Or it can be in the sense that this is "the last that we see of the Starks, at least together".

She really looked stunning. Also, is it just me or did her "dracarys" sound much more impressive than those that Dany utters?  I was low key expecting that Drogon, moved by her powerful interpretation of the magic word, would teleport behind Cersei and roast her there and then.

THIS. I wanted to throw my laptop through the window at this. Although, since they went down this road, they actually left a huge plothole. In reality it would have been logical to also place these undefeatable ballistae in strategic places on the rocks of Dragonstone to shoot down any dragon that would make it past the ships. And similarly have archers hiding there to shoot at anyone crawling from the sea or trying to make the steps to the fort. It's not like they had many left to kill at that point anyway...

This didn't even bother me as I was watching but now I can't stop thinking about it. True, that was some good drama and acting thrown down the gutter. But I guess if they had shown this scene, it might have given away Sansa's Littlefinger moment with Tyrion.

Re- Dragon stone. I don't know why they didn't occupy the castle, meaning Daenerys would have to flee elsewhere, further from KL. Rather than just ambushing them on their way, it would seem more tacitical to occupy it. 

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

4 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

The hound then launches into "I heard you got broken in I heard you got broken in rough" wtf is that shit. Who would tell the hound that information and why would he throw that at Sansa like some kind of rape obsessed moron.It's like they have to allow Sansa to justify her whole character arc and virtue signal against anyone that has degraded her even comments she wasn't aware of. They put the hound in that position as some kind of symbol of rape culture

I thought that sounded really off as well.  

The crux of his comments were. "I hope you know that when I invited you to leave Kings Landing with me, whatever else happened, rape was off the table!" 

But I think that was lost in an attempt to show, "Hey look the hound is still rough and gruff, see, look at how clumsy his reunion with Sansa is!"

I think they under served both characters in that exchange.  

 

[Aderyn]

11 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

Did anyone else notice how Sansa walked over to the hound after he rejected that girl and said "she could have given you some happiness" was that a throwback to how Sandor while tryin to provoke Arya into killing him told her he should've fucked Sansa bloody and  at least he'd have one happy memory ?. The hound then launches into "I heard you got broken in I heard you got broken in rough" wtf is that shit. Who would tell the hound that information and why would he throw that at Sansa like some kind of rape obsessed moron.It's like they have to allow Sansa to justify her whole character arc and virtue signal against anyone that has degraded her even comments she wasn't aware of. They put the hound in that position as some kind of symbol of rape culture

Ugh I think that was the only part of their dialogue I disliked. Him knowing it is yet another example of lazy writing I guess, unless Sansa getting raped is somehow still popular gossip at WF and he heard the rumours. Still a flat explanation. 

All I get from this is just a disturbing feeling that D&D are still trying to squeeze out of the shock value of Sansa's rape scene. That or they really want to write the Hound as someone with zero emotional intelligence.

[darksellsword]

12 minutes ago, Aderyn said:

Ugh I think that was the only part of their dialogue I disliked. Him knowing it is yet another example of lazy writing I guess, unless Sansa getting raped is somehow still popular gossip at WF and he heard the rumours. Still a flat explanation. 

All I get from this is just a disturbing feeling that D&D are still trying to squeeze out of the shock value of Sansa's rape scene. That or they really want to write the Hound as someone with zero emotional intelligence.

Why didn't they just have the hound saying I heard Little finger married you off to Boltons bastard you should've left kingslanding with me when you had the chance. It would have been consistent with the hounds character and not randomly vile but I think it is as you said D&D just wanted to shock everyone and make them feel uncomfortable again.

[darksellsword]

I don't know why Westeros needs the 3eyedRaven, everyone seems to know everything that has happened or is happening at any given time or place.

[Aderyn]

Just now, darksellsword said:

Why didn't they just have the hound saying I heard Little finger married you off to Boltons bastard you should've left kingslanding with me when you had the chance. It would have been consistent with the hounds character and not randomly vile but I think it is as you said D&D just wanted to shock everyone and make them feel uncomfortable again.

I think by now they must be feeling so uncomfortable with their own show that they want us to get the authentic experience. (See also: no lighting budget in a night-time battle episode)

Yeah for some reason it feels like they don't want us to forget. Maybe they're thinking that just in case Sansa appears too Perfect, we will remind the audience of all the horrible things that were done to her and all the stupid things that she did seasons ago (despite being a child and war prisoner).

[Aderyn]

2 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

I don't know why Westeros needs the 3eyedRaven, everyone seems to know everything that has happened or is happening at any given time or place.

The Dual Principle of Reverse Logic:
1) Whenever relevant to the plot, ordinary characters have a sudden off-screen revelation of important information.
2) Whenever relevant to the plot, a 3ER may withhold any potentially crucial information without presenting valid reasons, as he sees fit.

[Dragonslack]

A tooth pick can kill a magic dragon from a great distance now lol. What is Lena afraid of?! She can use the fantastical weapon to destroy ships and why not people/armies from far away easily and safely. Heck she could even destroy mamutes. Why have the expense of the golden company?

 

Blackfyre golden company should just waste them all and take the throne, clean house. The end.

 

[Red Dragon10]

Was anyone else confused about the weird little desert area behind Kings Landing?  Since when has that been there? 

[Kyrion]

I'm wondering why Varys doesn't just send people through the secret passages of the Red Keep, something Tyrion very well knows of since he used it himself.

Send Greyworm in there and kill Cersei, or send a group of people and just kill the principles, the Kingsguard and Cersei at night when everyone is sleeping. Easy as that. 

[MinscS2]

RIP:

Daenerys.
Jon.
Ghost.
Sansa.
Arya.
Bronn.
Jamie.
Varys.

You all survived the long night, and are all technically still alive on the show, but your characters and/or character arc's got butchered this episode.

Also RIP to the laws of logic, continuity and physics.
You put up a good fight against D&D but ultimately you where doomed from the start.

All hail our new Deus Ex Ballista overlords.
Who needs dragons anyway when you can simply spam ranged weaponry that seemingly penetrates both dragons and solid wooden ships with ease?

 

[D2procon]

I see a lot of people complaining about Cersei not attacking Danny and her mini crew

Qyburn tells Cersei she has the support of the common people in Kings Landing. They support her claim, even though the Targaryen should have the stronger claim, they see Dany as an outsider and invader.

Cersei doesn't just want the support of the common people, she wants the support of the Seven Kingdoms and all the important Lords that hold power throughout the land. So she proceeds to tell Qyburn "open the gates to the Red Keep, if [Daenerys] wants the Iron Throne, she'll have to burn thousands of innocents on her way here" (not an exact quote as I don't remember the exact phrasing, but go watch the scene yourself)

She certainly could've ballistae'd them down when they were there to parlay, it's not like morality is holding her back. It's that she'll be able to solidify the support of the common people and inspire the support of the powerful Lords throughout the land if she gets Dany to kill innocents first. This is important. The Crown is severely in debt, and even after killing "the invaders", one needs to build allies in order to survive. This may be her best shot at improving her own image and the positioning of the Crown relative to the Iron Bank and other powers within Westeros.

This is also why she executed Missandei in that scene. Other than the fact that Cersei's just evil and cruel, that move was intended to provoke Dany into ruining her reputation in Kings Landing while rebranding Cersei as the saviour of the people by having her go on a blood-thirsty rampage (which is what everything is pointing to in Episode 5) before killing her off.

[House Cambodia]

7 hours ago, Imp Beyond the Wall said:

I thought that sounded really off as well.  

The crux of his comments were. "I hope you know that when I invited you to leave Kings Landing with me, whatever else happened, rape was off the table!" 

But I think that was lost in an attempt to show, "Hey look the hound is still rough and gruff, see, look at how clumsy his reunion with Sansa is!"

I think they under served both characters in that exchange.  

 

I think that's exactly what he meant. The point of the discussion was the Hound saying he could have spared Sansa all the trauma that happened to her and she retorting that the traumas made her the strong person she is now. But THE WAY the Hound articulated his point was dreadful yes, but entirely in keeping with his character who is no master of communication and certainly not with females.

[House Cambodia]

7 hours ago, darksellsword said:

I don't know why Westeros needs the 3eyedRaven, everyone seems to know everything that has happened or is happening at any given time or place.

Odd that we've not seen any two-eyed ravens for a while - this series? Yet news of Rhaegal's demise got North and South faster than the speed of sound.