[Poll] How would you rate episode 804?

[ummester]

47 minutes ago, SerJimmyJangle said:

The fact that you posted that (what I've highlighted in bold) alone leads me to wonder how much of ASOIAF and GOT you've actually been paying attention to....

Enough to know that they just had a particularly long summer and were expecting a particularly long winter - which, sans any other explanation, must have been due to the magic imbued in the NK, who is now dead.

So I repeat, why is it still winter? Even if you say well, the NK is dead so they just return to normal seasons - that doesn't cover that they just had a particularly long summer, so there is no reason to assume winter is the current season they should be in.

[SerJimmyJangle]

21 minutes ago, legba11 said:

A couple of things that have come up: 

It's possible that for all her faults, Cersei is trying to be a ruler and honor the safety of people who came to negotiate. Killing Tyrion would be a huge violation.  It's likely it's merely his plot armor, but maybe someone reminded Dumb and Dumber about this.  They've ignored it in the past.  You could equally ask why she doesn't kill everyone in that scene.  They have like 100 soldiers defending them.  A heavy cavalry charge and those ballistas would end the war with Dany.  (Missendei did not come to the negotiation, she was a prisoner brought by Cersei)

The prophecy is a complete non-factor. Volonquar is not mentioned on the show and the prophecy was completely wrong the instant it was shown.  Show Cersei has already had 4 children, not the 3 mentioned in the prophecy.

It's well documented that meetings before battles took place for both parties to parley in order to prevent bloodshed. There's a couple that spring to mind in GoT also:

Siege of Storm's End
Battle of the Bastards

Granted, they don't always happen, but when they do, it's an unwritten rule of war that no hostilities take place during a parley.

[SerJimmyJangle]

1 minute ago, ummester said:

Enough to know that they just had a particularly long summer and were expecting a particularly long winter - which, sans any other explanation, must have been due to the magic imbued in the NK, who is now dead.

So I repeat, why is it still winter? Even if you say well, the NK is dead so they just return to normal seasons - that doesn't cover that they just had a particularly long summer, so there is no reason to assume winter is the current season they should be in.

Winter was essentially confirmed when Jon and Sansa discussed it at the end of Season 6. Prior to that they had an autumn of 2 years (after the Summer that lasted for 9 years)

Jaime noticed snowfall over KL as he left for the North at the end of Season 7.

In terms of duration, that would make it barely a year (yeah I know timing's a screwy thing on the show).

Based on that, you'd be looking at a further 2-3 years at least of Winter, before 6 months - a year of Spring.

I know that GRRM handwaved the seasons with "Magic", but I think the NK has no sway over the seasons themselves.

[ummester]

6 minutes ago, SerJimmyJangle said:

Winter was essentially confirmed when Jon and Sansa discussed it at the end of Season 6. Prior to that they had an autumn of 2 years (after the Summer that lasted for 9 years)

Jaime noticed snowfall over KL as he left for the North at the end of Season 7.

In terms of duration, that would make it barely a year (yeah I know timing's a screwy thing on the show).

Based on that, you'd be looking at a further 2-3 years at least of Winter, before 6 months - a year of Spring.

I know that GRRM handwaved the seasons with "Magic", but I think the NK has no sway over the seasons themselves.

So we just have to accept that all of these people live on a planet with an orbit so bizarre that the seasons are entirely inconsistent and this has nothing whatsoever to do with the magic the author claimed it did? GRRM promised the seasons would be explained, with magic - if D&D didn't ask what the explanation was and plan it into the writing at all, they are bigger fuckwits than I released.  Not only is 'winter is coming' (given special weight when in long summers) pivotal to the shows mythology, it also sold a heap of tshirts for D&D.

[Heartofice]

14 minutes ago, SerJimmyJangle said:

Winter was essentially confirmed when Jon and Sansa discussed it at the end of Season 6. Prior to that they had an autumn of 2 years (after the Summer that lasted for 9 years)

Jaime noticed snowfall over KL as he left for the North at the end of Season 7.

In terms of duration, that would make it barely a year (yeah I know timing's a screwy thing on the show).

Based on that, you'd be looking at a further 2-3 years at least of Winter, before 6 months - a year of Spring.

I know that GRRM handwaved the seasons with "Magic", but I think the NK has no sway over the seasons themselves.

Its not winter in Kings Landing any more though surely?

[SerJimmyJangle]

Just now, Heartofice said:

Its not winter in Kings Landing any more though surely?

KL is a lot further South from WF.

That's like saying that if it's sunny in Madrid, but snowing in Scotland, then they're different seasons; we all know that's obviously not the case.

Factors such as climate, wind direction, exposure to sunlight (remember that in Winter, some places in Northern Europe see NO daylight at all), precipitation, etc, all serve to aggravate or allay the conditions you'd expect from each season.

Like I said, barring some D&D ex-machina or GRRM handwaving, it'd be another 3-6 years of Winter, the same as it has been according to the history of Westeros (ignoring the Long Night as that was at least a millenia ago).

[SerJimmyJangle]

22 minutes ago, ummester said:

So we just have to accept that all of these people live on a planet with an orbit so bizarre that the seasons are entirely inconsistent and this has nothing whatsoever to do with the magic the author claimed it did? GRRM promised the seasons would be explained, with magic - if D&D didn't ask what the explanation was and plan it into the writing at all, they are bigger fuckwits than I released.  Not only is 'winter is coming' (given special weight when in long summers) pivotal to the shows mythology, it also sold a heap of tshirts for D&D.

Erm…

Yes.

You would need the fingers and toes to count the number of ends that are going to be left dangling by the time this show ends - you can bet that seasons, their durations, and the reason(s) behind them, will be one of those.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by SerJimmyJangle

[lakin1013]

12 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

I'm pissed off at Sansa for telling Jon's secret. But I'm even more pissed off at Tyrion for telling Varys! He still wants Dany to be queen, so why would he tell? And what is with him having so much faith in both Cersei and Dany? He doesn't believe Cersei isn't a monster? And it's an advisor's job to worry about his monarch's state of mind? Does anyone else feel like he just doesn't want to admit he was wrong?

Last season, Tyrion went in to talk to Cersei while everyone else waited outside.  We never saw all of that 'talk'.  I think Tyrion made a deal for himself with his sister.  He is not above that, Tyrion is a survivor and a Lannister.   So, even if Cersei is a monster (and there is little doubt there) Tyrion might not be above saving her life too.

Personally, I think Tyrion told Varys because he, Tyrion, is worried about Dany too.  Not enough to do anything about it yet, but he does have his doubts.  It was interesting to hear Varys say that a Targaryen/Stark might actually be a great combination to rule (or something like that).

[House Cambodia]

17 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Last season, Tyrion went in to talk to Cersei while everyone else waited outside.  We never saw all of that 'talk'.  I think Tyrion made a deal for himself with his sister.  He is not above that, Tyrion is a survivor and a Lannister.   So, even if Cersei is a monster (and there is little doubt there) Tyrion might not be above saving her life too.

Personally, I think Tyrion told Varys because he, Tyrion, is worried about Dany too.  Not enough to do anything about it yet, but he does have his doubts.  It was interesting to hear Varys say that a Targaryen/Stark might actually be a great combination to rule (or something like that).

Tyrion and Jamie both share a fatal weakness in believing that deep down Cercei has a modicum of decency in her heart, and they both believe they can appeal to it. Sansa is the one who knows Cercei for what she is but isn't down south to advise. Dany doesn't know Cercei so trusts the counsel of Tyrion although that's about to change, clearly.

I expect Tyrion will try to save his sister, which is what the alleged upcoming trial will be about.

[Deminelle]

The Last of the Starks - does it mean Arya?

[GilletteMace]

rubbish, complete rubbish. even missandeis death was embedded in so much stupidity, it is too hard for me to swallow. everyone completely out of role. literally, everyone. my expectations were on 0 after last episode and guess what? this episode completely matched my expectations. everything is completely off the rails, i have zero sympathies left for any of the characters. every scene and dialogue is destructively bad written, it is sad. i dont care who will sit on the damn throne anymore. 

1/10

[House Cambodia]

26 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

The Last of the Starks - does it mean Arya?

No, the 4 of them who met in the godswood.

[Deminelle]

Just now, House Cambodia said:

No, the 4 of them who met in the godswood.

Ah, it's in plural? Not a native speaker, so didn't occur to me right away.

[House Cambodia]

1 minute ago, Deminelle said:

Ah, it's in plural? Not a native speaker, so didn't occur to me right away.

Yeah, one of them - I think it was Arya, said to Jon, 'We're the last of the Starks, we need to stick together' or something like that.

[MinscS2]

There better be a twist next episode, because if the show continues down this path, it will be remembered as a failure and will make many fans very very upset.

IMDB Ratings:
Lowest S1: 8,7 (E3, Lord Snow.)
Lowest S2: 8,6 (E2, The Night Lands.)
Lowest S3: 8,7 (E3, Dark Wings, Dark Words.)
Lowest S4: 8,8 (E5, First of His Name.)
Lowest S5: 8,1 (E6, Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken.) <- Considered the worst episode in the series pre S8.
Lowest S6: 8,5 (E6/E8 tie, Blood of My Blood / No One.)
Lowest S7: 8,7 (E1, Dragonstone.)

Lowest S8... *drumroll*... E4 with a rating of 7.0!

Yes, 7,0, not 8,0 - 7,0! 
It's over a whole point lower rated than the second lowest rated episode in the whole show.

D&D fucked up, simple as that, and people don't like what they see. 
 

Edited May 7, 2019 by MinscS2
"many fans", not "man fans"

[divica]

Just now, MinscS2 said:

There better be a twist next episode, because if the show continues down this path, it will be remembered as a failure and will make man fans very very upset.

IMDB Ratings:
Lowest S1: 8,7 (E3, Lord Snow.)
Lowest S2: 8,6 (E2, The Night Lands.)
Lowest S3: 8,7 (E3, Dark Wings, Dark Words.)
Lowest S4: 8,8 (E5, First of His Name.)
Lowest S5: 8,1 (E6, Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken.) <- Considered the worst episode in the series pre S8.
Lowest S6: 8,5 (E6/E8 tie, Blood of My Blood / No One.)
Lowest S7: 8,7 (E1, Dragonstone.)

Lowest S8... *drumroll*... E4 with a rating of 7.0!

Yes, 7,0, not 8,0 - 7,0! 
It's over a whole point lower rated than the second lowest rated episode in the whole show.

D&D fucked up, simple as that, and people don't like what they see. 
 

Look at the other eps this season

e1-8.4,       e2-8.7,       e3-8.4,     e4-7.0

All the eps could be the lowest ranking eps of one of the previous season and the tendency is for their ranking to lower a bit more...

And given the ranking of last 2 eps then something is very wrong!

[House Cambodia]

3 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

D&D fucked up, simple as that, and people don't like what they see. 

Yes and no, imo. I'm more than happy for them to piss off fandom by giving the majority what they don't want. It worked with Ned's demise and has been a signature of the show ever since. I'm very happy for them the break hearts by sabotaging Jamie's redemption arc and making a fool of Elizabeth Warren and fans who see Daenerys as a model female leader.

But the shocks only work if they're good - like Ned and the Red Wedding (both courtesy of GRRM). Doesn't work if its full of plot holes and is shit, which I think is where the low ratings are coming from.

[divica]

Just now, House Cambodia said:

Yes and no, imo. I'm more than happy for them to piss off fandom by giving the majority what they don't want. It worked with Ned's demise and has been a signature of the show ever since. I'm very happy for them the break hearts by sabotaging Jamie's redemption arc and making a fool of Elizabeth Warren and fans who see Daenerys as a model female leader.

But the shocks only work if they're good - like Ned and the Red Wedding (both courtesy of GRRM). Doesn't work if its full of plot holes and is shit, which I think is where the low ratings are coming from.

I don t think it is exactly that. For ned's death or the red wedding you felt those things could happen. You might not want to believe them, but there were clues and indications to prepare yourself that something bad might happen.

In this season we have stories and arcs build for years and they aren t having resolutions. And then things are happening in a blink without any previous support.

Besides the fact we have now spent 7 years with these characters. We care about them much more than we did in the earlier seasons… 

[House Cambodia]

1 minute ago, divica said:

In this season we have stories and arcs build for years and they aren t having resolutions. And then things are happening in a blink without any previous support.

Right, this is my main point. The writers don't have to service fandom, but the plotlines and character development need to be far better quality.

[divica]

Just now, House Cambodia said:

Right, this is my main point. The writers don't have to service fandom, but the plotlines and character development need to be far better quality.

I think it is very difficult to balance not service the fandom and making a story that isn t frustating for its fans. There are central aspects that must be what people want to see. The trick is making the fandom want to see the story you are telling.

Obviously that there are arcs that must suprise people and be original or even against people's expectations. But the core of the story must be satisfying for most fans. 

Having problems because of the way danny handles justice has been foreshadowed for years. However having everybody love her for years, give her a romantic interest, making her someone you like and then in 2 eps take all those things away is just frustating the fans. It is awful writting...