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Rant & Rave Without Repercussion [book and show spoilers]


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3 hours ago, Mindwalker said:

OK, I haven't read the books, I just imagine they'd be different.

They are excellent :D. The last two slow down the pace a lot and spend a lot of time on world building, and do get criticized for that a bit, but there must be good reasons why they were written that way - I have read on the forum that some plot lines became very hard for George to work together seamlessly, so he had to slow some of the plots down to get other story arcs lined up etc (the Mereenese knot, the six year gap that was planned originally, but then removed) and likely the new world building is leading to something, but even if some of it is not, it gives you a sense of the complexity and history of the universe. The pace picks up quite nicely towards the end of ADWD again.

The really annoying thing is, even with the decisions the show has taken in terms of characters and story lines cut out, it wouldn't have been that difficult to make things more credible.

You want Ellaria Sand to run the show in Dorne, because you introduced her in S4 and don't have the time to introduce Doran's daughter? Fine, Doran is wheel-chair bound anyway, have her act as his 'hand', after confining him to the palace after a soft coup. Just please have Prince Tristan kill himself in a hunting 'accident', just not offed by his bastard cousins. Still a bit weak? Throw in a couple of powerful Lords supporting Ellaria and we're there. Why are they supporting her? Well she's not hard on the eye is she, you can play around with it the way you want. Maybe she's playing them off against each other, whatever, better than watching the horrible cartoonish Dorne story line that we did get.

Want to make Euron super-powerful? Use magic, not technology, simple. In the books, he is alluded to have something/someone that ties in with Dany's past and is far more satisfying story-wise. Won't spoil it for you.

Spoiler

I mean the warlocks from Qarth.

 Also build up Euron with some old fashioned reaving, so far in the show he's only either hanging around with Cersei or magically appearing out of nowhere to destroy a part of Dany's fleet. (Thrice)

Want to show Sansa learning a thing or two, and have Littlefinger use her as a marriage pawn? Don't like the complicated marriage arrangement in the Vale the books are hinting at? Have her married to Sweet Robin (ok, I will admit this is not great, but still beats marrying a Bolton; first cousin marriages were not unknown in the middle ages). There is likely no physical trauma here, but for a girl who was to marry a golden Crown Prince, having to first marry a dwarf, then a slobbering idiot child who might still be suckling on a wet nurse is surely mental trauma if it is handled seriously, but she learns how to manipulate the Lords of the Vale.

Theon will still have to rescue a fake Arya instead (and what's wrong with that?) and you have to bring Sansa to join Jon later. The Knights of the Vale joining the battle will not be that surprising sure, but the story was anyway not any better off for that deus ex machina in the show, just made Jon look like a goof.

Oh and don't go north of the wall to capture a wight for Cersei .... please. Need to lose a Dragon north of the Wall? Jon responds to the call to rescue wildings again, or why not rescue Bran and Meera? Dany flies in to rescue the rescuers with the same results. They bring a wight anyway to show to the realm that the threat is real, then Tyrion has the idea of a summit with Cersei, if you need to have that idiotic summit just for the sake of Jamie's arc.  I will be the first to admit it's still bollocks, but better bollocks than before, and hey I don't get paid millions to come up with this. Many members here can come up with stories far superior, and we would all have gladly done it for free to stop this D&D dumpster fire from happening!!!

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The showrunners and the people responsible for the animation or whatever are still mentally retarded for having the four-legged dragon on the Targaryen sigil on the boats' sails. - Utter swine's bollocks... I have even personally e-mailed the people I assumed were responsible, as good as I could find them, and wrote to them about the absurdity of it having been so in season 7, before season 8 came out.

 

The worst part is the fact that NOONE SEEMS TO NOTICE THIS. Now that people noticed the bloody coffee mug I hope that someone will make a thing out of this as well and give the people responsible Seven Hells over it. It's a completely absurd mistake to keep making after having the most famous TV series in the world feature clearly two-legged dragons with GRRM famously making a big deal about their anatomy, and also after having previously canonised the Targaryen sigil as two-legged in the flag in Meereen. - Seven bleeding Hells afire...

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5 minutes ago, Adam Targaryen said:

The showrunners and the people responsible for the animation or whatever are still mentally retarded for having the four-legged dragon on the Targaryen sigil on the boats' sails. - Utter swine's bollocks... I have even personally e-mailed the people I assumed were responsible, as good as I could find them, and wrote to them about the absurdity of it having been so in season 7, before season 8 came out.

 

The worst part is the fact that NOONE SEEMS TO NOTICE THIS. Now that people noticed the bloody coffee mug I hope that someone will make a thing out of this as well and give the people responsible Seven Hells over it. It's a completely absurd mistake to keep making after having the most famous TV series in the world feature clearly two-legged dragons with GRRM famously making a big deal about their anatomy, and also after having previously canonised the Targaryen sigil as two-legged in the flag in Meereen. - Seven bleeding Hells afire...

I never noticed that before, I dunno why but that is both hilarious and something that irritates me more than the starbucks coffee cup. I guess Daenerys forgot how many legs dragons have:D

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20 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

I never noticed that before, I dunno why but that is both hilarious and something that irritates me more than the starbucks coffee cup. I guess Daenerys forgot how many legs dragons have:D

Yeah, I know right? Spread the word, it's incredible that this isn't a "thing" that people are talking about. As I said, it was the same in Season 7 with the sails and maybe with the sigils on the door of the ship when Tyrion is about to knock when Dany and Jon have sex for the first time, and so forth

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On 5/9/2019 at 11:49 PM, The Hunter said:

Sorry - never posted much here, but need to get this out there....it should no longer 'jumped the shark' (who really remembers that episode anyway?)   The new phrase should be 'Shot the Dragon'  Join me in updating the poor writing lexicon!

Burned the Shireen?

Raped the Sansa?

Stabbed the Snow?

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On 5/10/2019 at 8:44 AM, Cas Stark said:

The missing piece of information is how much detail did Martin give them, was it a few bullet points or was it more story and plot?  Has there been a breach in the working relationship where either the showrunners weren't interested in Martin's input or Martin was holding back the details? 

The drop in quality is significant and obvious and tied to loss of the book material, so I do think Martin bears some level of responsibility here considering he told everyone the show would never outpace his books, so everyone including the hack showrunners expected to have the books to adapt.  That doesn't change the fact that the showrunners ARE hacks and who, one way or another, failed the show through lazy script writing.

There are other t.v. shows written by people with no books to crib from, you know. Game of Thrones might inevitably have suffered from a lack of source material, but t.v. writers have no excuse for not writing good t.v.

People would bitch about Game of Thrones being dumbed down, not having as much direction, plot contrivances, sloppy characterization, falling into fantasy cliche, etc. But a stupider show could still be a good show. There is plenty of entertaining dumb t.v. 

These guys even failed at that. An hour and a half of flying dragons and zombie-chopping, and no one could even see it, let alone figure out what was going on. 

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2 hours ago, Adam Targaryen said:

The showrunners and the people responsible for the animation or whatever are still mentally retarded for having the four-legged dragon on the Targaryen sigil on the boats' sails. - Utter swine's bollocks... I have even personally e-mailed the people I assumed were responsible, as good as I could find them, and wrote to them about the absurdity of it having been so in season 7, before season 8 came out.

 

The worst part is the fact that NOONE SEEMS TO NOTICE THIS. Now that people noticed the bloody coffee mug I hope that someone will make a thing out of this as well and give the people responsible Seven Hells over it. It's a completely absurd mistake to keep making after having the most famous TV series in the world feature clearly two-legged dragons with GRRM famously making a big deal about their anatomy, and also after having previously canonised the Targaryen sigil as two-legged in the flag in Meereen. - Seven bleeding Hells afire...

Wow. I seldom notice quick stuff like that, maybe if I had could have bring myself to re-watch the episode. Thank you very much for pointing this out. We all rant about the writing, but it's 10x worse when the rest of the production team fails.

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On 5/10/2019 at 6:07 AM, MinscS2 said:

New rant incoming, this time about Daenerys' current path into darkness.
In 3....2....1.

I think ultimately, my issue with the path Daenerys currently on isn't so much the prospect of her dying in general, but how she dies. 

I've always wanted her to survive the story. Not necessarily end up on the IT, but at least survive. A part of me however has always believed that she won't survive, and ultimately, that's fine, as long as her death (like Jorah's) concludes her arc and long journey in a meaningful, satisfying way:

- She dies a hero, fighting the Night King, either by going out in a literal blaze of glory that ultimately allowed the forces of life to beat him back, or as Nissa Nissa, a necessary sacrifice in order to defeat him forever.
- She dies in childbirth (I've always hated the idea, but given what we're heading towards, this would've been so much better) after all the wars are concluded and won. Her legacy (and house) lives on in her newborn child, who will never meet his/her mother, but at least gets to live in the new better world she helped creating.
- She dies heroically while saving Jon, the "real heir", who will continue their legacy and house after she's gone.

Basically, these endings for her would result in her being a major part of building that new better world that so often has been mentioned. ("Together, we will leave this world a better place than we found it")
Ultimately however, she never gets to be a part of this new world herself. She ushered it in, died a hero's death, and will always be remembered in the songs and legends for it. Bittersweet and a satisfying conclusion to her story, as she had an impact on the story as a whole - she made a difference.

What we're currently seeing unfold however, is the polar opposite of this. 
She's not dying a hero, nor in childbirth, nor to save someone important, nor will she leave the world a better place than she found it. (Well, technically she will, but she won't get credited for it. Both characters and fans are already downplaying her role in the War for the Dawn.)

If her ultimate endgame is to turn into Viserys/Cersei 2.0 (really badly portrayed on the show, but ultimately not entirely unbelievable - if the story hadn't been so rushed and if it was better written - like it will be in the books presumably) and become the very thing she has spent her entire arc fighting, without really changing anything for the better, and instead just "being more of the same", then...what's the point of it to begin with?

What was the point of all of her suffering and pain, everything she's endured and fought for, if there's no proper conclusion after 8 seasons?
- What's the point of seeing her raped and suffer at the hands of Drogo, before ultimately succumbing to Stockholm's Syndrome? 
- What's the point of her being abused at the hands of her brother, if she's ultimately fated to become like him anyway?
- What's the point of her being immune to fire and birthing three dragons, if they are not important to the story?
- What's the point of her long, arduous journey in Essos, if it's all for naught in the end? 
- What's the point of her being acutely aware of her fathers and brothers Targaryen madness, if she's ultimately succumbing to it anyway?
- What's the point of her having a romance with Jon after they've already established that they would become allies and fight the NK together? 
- What's the point of all the hints, prophecies/visions and foreshadowing about her becoming pregnant (with Jon), when they evidently scrapped that storyline? 

She's one of the main characters in both the books and the show, but if we can ultimately remove everything related to her from the entire story, without there being any sort major change to the story, (and currently it looks that way), then really - what was the point?
- Slavery isn't entirely abolished among the (former?) Slave-Cities, so it will return given time, because Volantis is till a thing.
- The NK would still be alive, but also banished north of the wall (for all time?) because he would have no dragon to break it down with.
- Cersei (and Euron) would be dethroned due to being hated tyrants, given enough time anyway.
- The rest of the story would unfold more or less exactly the same, with the same characters doing the same things, because Daenerys had no impact on their stories due to only starting to affect Westeros in mid season 7. (Tyrion is the lone exception here and...well, we can all probably agree that he's been pretty pointless since S5 and onward anyway.)

Ultimately, the only major(ish) thing that will change if we remove her from the story, is that the Dothraki would still be around pillaging and looting, and the Unsullied would've been sold to someone else...yay?

If the moral of her story ultimately boils down to "power corrupts" and/or "good conquerors doesn't equal good rulers", then that is hands down the lamest, most disappointing and underwhelming conclusion to any character I've ever come across in any piece of fiction ever...
Even Ned's, Robb's and Cat's (early) death's had more of a moral lesson to be taught, and bigger impacts to the show, given how their deaths accelerated the plot and led to a very noticeable cause-and-effect.

If Daenerys ends up dying a villain without there being any major payoff to her story arc, then quite frankly the re-watch value for GoT will have hit absolute zero for me. I wouldn't be able to re-watch the show, because every time one of her earlier scenes (specifically one in which she suffers) would start to play, I would start feeling depressed, knowing what it would ultimately conclude in anyway...

Rant over, thanks for reading. :commie:
 

Kinda catching up with things...agree with all this....I don't think she will go mad ....but jon may think she has because he doesn't ask friggin questions, none of them talk ffs and is now dumb - confusing wildfire explosions with dragon fire? 

Season 7 was about them doing things together - it was rammed down our throats - and now they are going the other way...

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On 5/10/2019 at 7:01 PM, kissdbyfire said:

True. But the bottom line for me is, good writers could make it work. In fact, good writers could make it work using only the published material. For example, say writers are going to start adapting the novels when the Ds did. They are counting on TWoW and ADoS being out before they catch up, but same scenario happens and the show is going to overtake the novels. Even if the author refuses to give them anything, they would still be able to finish and present a coherent and interesting story. Sure, it won’t be the book story, but so what? I’d rather a million times have “a” good story than a piece of shit incoherent mess of a version of “the” [book] story. :dunno:

 

And this is where i get back to Martin bearing the lion's share of the blame. If we the viewers knew the writing was suffering certainly Martin, as a writer himself, had to know they would struggle mightily without the books to lean on. But, he didn't care. It's his story the were going to butcher and he didn't care. He has legions of devoted readers and watchers who want nothing more than this story to end as strong as it started, and he didn't care. Nine years we'd had this show, and not 1 book. He owed it to himself and to us to finish, but he just didn't care enough to do it. Instead he willingly left it in the hands of people he knew to be incompetent  boobs. That's unforgivable.

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On 5/7/2019 at 10:05 PM, Prince of the North said:

Exactly!  And, you know, some fudging on timescale/distances/travel would be fine and even expected in a show of this scope if they were mentioned at all.  But they haven't even made the tiniest effort to take those things into account at all-to the point of ridiculousness.

Along the same line, let's set aside the ludicrous ballista weapons and Urine's fleet's ability to hide behind a rock to jump out and ambush unsuspecting enemies for a moment to ask...how did they even know to be there at that time?  Maybe they had some scouting reports, etc.?  But, of course, nothing like that was shown because the interest here isn't to tell a story - it's just to shock and get done with the show they've been checked out of for years:rolleyes:

Ever since the terrorist attack on the Great Sept by some mastermind living in a cave in Essos, the Department of Westeros Security has required all flying craft, including dragons to register their exact flight plans. That's how Euron knew exactly where to lay in ambush. :-)

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2 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

And this is where i get back to Martin bearing the lion's share of the blame. If we the viewers knew the writing was suffering certainly Martin, as a writer himself, had to know they would struggle mightily without the books to lean on. But, he didn't care. It's his story the were going to butcher and he didn't care. He has legions of devoted readers and watchers who want nothing more than this story to end as strong as it started, and he didn't care. Nine years we'd had this show, and not 1 book. He owed it to himself and to us to finish, but he just didn't care enough to do it. Instead he willingly left it in the hands of people he knew to be incompetent  boobs. That's unforgivable.

How do you know any of this? Answer is, you don't. Neither do I, btw. But the point is, we don't know what Martin told them. We don't know when, how, why, we know nothing, apart from very few things that were made public in interviews w/ Martin, D&D, and HBO. I have lots more, but I'm at work so it will have to wait. 

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5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

How do you know any of this? Answer is, you don't. Neither do I, btw. But the point is, we don't know what Martin told them. We don't know when, how, why, we know nothing, apart from very few things that were made public in interviews w/ Martin, D&D, and HBO. I have lots more, but I'm at work so it will have to wait. 

Just one thing. People are criticizing grrm now because he detached himself from GOT and D&D writing ruined the show. However, 1 year ago we were criticizing grrm because he was too invested in GOT and other shows and wasn t spending enough time writting his books and the books should be his priority.

We can t have it both ways. Wether people like it or not GOT is D&D'sand HBO's baby while the books are grrm's. The big mistake he did was be involved in the show for years instead of focusing interilly on the books. Wether GOT is a success or not shouldn t be grrm's responsability. The people that are making the show are the ones that have to make it good...

Having said that, I think it is clear someone should have pushed D&D away or forced some people into their writting team because it is unaceptable for them to present this season or think 13 eps were enough for these 2 seasons. People trusted them and they failed miserably!

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18 minutes ago, divica said:

Just one thing. People are criticizing grrm now because he detached himself from GOT and D&D writing ruined the show. However, 1 year ago we were criticizing grrm because he was too invested in GOT and other shows and wasn t spending enough time writting his books and the books should be his priority.

We can t have it both ways. Wether people like it or not GOT is D&D'sand HBO's baby while the books are grrm's. The big mistake he did was be involved in the show for years instead of focusing interilly on the books. Wether GOT is a success or not shouldn t be grrm's responsability. The people that are making the show are the ones that have to make it good...

Having said that, I think it is clear someone should have pushed D&D away or forced some people into their writting team because it is unaceptable for them to present this season or think 13 eps were enough for these 2 seasons. People trusted them and they failed miserably!

Not necessarily.  I  had hoped, since he clearly didn't get the books out or stay ahead of the show, that he would have taken a more active role in the final season so that, since it's likely the only ending anyone will get, the show and writing would have regained some of the sophistication it had originally.  GRRM being more involved in the final season was the only hope that it would be closer to 1-4 in quality.  

It's easy to see though why they only wanted 13 episodes, because even with that few they still struggled hugely to have the plot make any sense, things happened randomly, there was a big spectacle, and then on to something else.  This is why they wanted everything condensed, because IMO they didn't have enough plot from GRRM for things to hang together and they also never had the talent to do their own plotting and also, wanted to end the show.

**There was also a hope, which turns out to have been in vain, that once they got to GRRM end game, that alone would elevate the story again, but it turns out, they're hobbling across the finish line in a big way.

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2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Not necessarily.  I  had hoped, since he clearly didn't get the books out or stay ahead of the show, that he would have taken a more active role in the final season so that, since it's likely the only ending anyone will get, the show and writing would have regained some of the sophistication it had originally.  GRRM being more involved in the final season was the only hope that it would be closer to 1-4 in quality.  

It's easy to see though why they only wanted 13 episodes, because even with that few they still struggled hugely to have the plot make any sense, things happened randomly, there was a big spectacle, and then on to something else.  This is why they wanted everything condensed, because IMO they didn't have enough plot from GRRM for things to hang together and they also never had the talent to do their own plotting and also, wanted to end the show.

**There was also a hope, which turns out to have been in vain, that once they got to GRRM end game, that alone would elevate the story again, but it turns out, they're hobbling across the finish line in a big way.

But while you and many fans think that grrm will never finish the story it doesn t seem that grrm agrees with you. It looks like he wanted more time to focus on writting… From his perspective steping away from the show was the right decision. IF  it is possible to finish the books he should focus on that instead of using 2 years of his life to develop  this last season…

In the end we always return to the core problem. D&D can t write original material and the people at HBO have let them get away with it for years! Another interesting information is when did the Disney contract appear? Were this seasons rushed because D&D wanted to move on to Disney? 

I think if we want to atribute blame the culprits are mostly D&D because they suck and HBO because they had several oportunities to do something about how shitty the writting has been going… Hell how can HBO authorize this season when they are working in several prequels? Are they idiots? Didn t they see how this will hurt all of GOT franchise?

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1 minute ago, divica said:

But while you and many fans think that grrm will never finish the story it doesn t seem that grrm agrees with you. It looks like he wanted more time to focus on writting… From his perspective steping away from the show was the right decision. IF  it is possible to finish the books he should focus on that instead of using 2 years of his life to develop  this last season…

In the end we always return to the core problem. D&D can t write original material and the people at HBO have let them get away with it for years! Another interesting information is when did the Disney contract appear? Were this seasons rushed because D&D wanted to move on to Disney? 

I think if we want to atribute blame the culprits are mostly D&D because they suck and HBO because they had several oportunities to do something about how shitty the writting has been going… Hell how can HBO authorize this season when they are working in several prequels? Are they idiots? Didn t they see how this will hurt all of GOT franchise?

He's already had 8 years.  And he's also continued to do many other things, including working on developing GOT spin offs, writing the fake histories, so the idea that he couldn't have spared 6 months to prop up the final season of GOT, I don't buy it.

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4 hours ago, Rory Snow said:

And this is where i get back to Martin bearing the lion's share of the blame. If we the viewers knew the writing was suffering certainly Martin, as a writer himself, had to know they would struggle mightily without the books to lean on. But, he didn't care. It's his story the were going to butcher and he didn't care. He has legions of devoted readers and watchers who want nothing more than this story to end as strong as it started, and he didn't care. Nine years we'd had this show, and not 1 book. He owed it to himself and to us to finish, but he just didn't care enough to do it. Instead he willingly left it in the hands of people he knew to be incompetent  boobs. That's unforgivable.

How do YOU know what GRRM thought / thinks?  You're mind-reader?  You hang out with him on a daily basis?

Television and films are an extraordinarily difficult business.  As so many in the business have been heard to say, "If I could predict accurately I'd own the world."  Every angle of a project can be absolutely lined up sharp and perfect, from funding to casting, and it can still crash and burn -- and usually does.  The space in which things can go wrong, and mostly likely will go wrong, is infinite.  Things that work are far less common than productions that don't work.

Again, this is not to say that everyone involved here (except the actors), from GRRM himself to etc. have not made mistakes, even major, irrevocable mistakes, because they did.

But we cannot ascribe our own thinking to GRRM, because WE DO NOT KNOW.

 

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Sorry for the double post, but here's this to add -- since for some reason the forum won't allow me to edit my first one:

In the meantime, every season of GOT was more popular than the season before.  To howl about HBO doing nothing -- for grief's sake, why in the world would they think they needed to interfere with what clearly was working for them as a huge success?  To say otherwise simply demonstrates that the person saying so known nothing jon snow of how networks and productions work, and the agreements between networks and a production company either.

P.S.  Also -- please spell 'writing' correctly.  Writing is writing, not writting.

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2 hours ago, divica said:

Just one thing. People are criticizing grrm now because he detached himself from GOT and D&D writing ruined the show. However, 1 year ago we were criticizing grrm because he was too invested in GOT and other shows and wasn t spending enough time writting his books and the books should be his priority.

We can t have it both ways. Wether people like it or not GOT is D&D'sand HBO's baby while the books are grrm's. The big mistake he did was be involved in the show for years instead of focusing interilly on the books. Wether GOT is a success or not shouldn t be grrm's responsability. The people that are making the show are the ones that have to make it good...

Having said that, I think it is clear someone should have pushed D&D away or forced some people into their writting team because it is unaceptable for them to present this season or think 13 eps were enough for these 2 seasons. People trusted them and they failed miserably!

Not to mention the series started to drift away from the books in season 5. So just because the unsullied got pissed off this season, doesn't mean suddenly it's GRRM fault that the series went to shit because he didn't finish the books. D&D started making shit up and messing up the story in season 5! Even if the books were released in 2016/17, the damage was already done.

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