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Rant & Rave Without Repercussion [book and show spoilers]

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I also want to say that while I have wanted her to go crazy in the books, and dislike her character immensely, it does somewhat of a disservice to her to put down everything that she has accomplished to the dragons.  She's down to to one dragon and all of a sudden she becomes totally insecure, everyone hates her, she can't accomplish anything....Dany Prime has always had a lot of faults, but she is still presented as someone who is charismatic in her own right, with or without the dragons.  The Dany in the show is totally falling apart w/out them.

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7 minutes ago, Trinket2 said:

Pet the damn dog, Jon

I'd argue that maybe after being brought back from the dead he's dead emotionally. But he fell in love with Daenerys. So basically he's just a jerk. 

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2 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

At the very least there is no explanation for why she wouldn't kill Tyrion. 

It. Doesn't. Make. Sense. 

Because she's not a "monster" now.
Olenna said to Jaime "she's a monster, you know that right?", and yes, she is a monster.

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Sorry, I haven't read 35 pages of posts n I've been years away from this forum, but did anyone else think that, as Martin read/s history and was influenced by real life, would the show have had a siege instead of crazy Dany if things were different, like if we weren't down to 2 episodes before the series ends? Or would we get a time jump of 5 years in the beginning of episode 5 after 5 years-long siege of the Red Keep? Or are the characters in the show just not genre savvy, since Sam didn't go south? Idk, Martin subverts expectations so will we get a siege if the books are-book 5=events up to Night King's death n book 6=5 year gap after siege of Cersei's stronghold -end scene.(ok this is cop out but I kinda love the idea, since Martin and DnD copped out w/R+L=J.) Did anyone else consider a siege at all?

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Posted (edited)

Usually, when I write these things I plan them out ahead of time, but I figure, I might as well be like D&D and just throw a bunch of shit out there in the hopes that some of it will stick. 

JUst quick disclaimer- I have rethought my position on Arya killing the Night KIng and I don't think it was as bad as I let on.  I think the show set that up better than I had thought. 

And then ... this... 

I know its a phrase that has been repeated, but ... "What the Fuck Did I Just Watch?"  No, really, what was that?  IT was a festive celebration (okay, that works) the culmination of many years of storytelling (gotcha) ... and then they were on the high seas, no they were on Dragonstone; no they were at the gates of King's Landing, no they were in Winterfell; it ws 6 hours after the battle, now its 2 years since the battle.. how much time has gone by? 

Wait, How did Bronn get here?  Why does Cersei know Melassandi is important?  How did Euron hide his fleet- HIS FLEET -from detection, and before you answer, remember - DANY IS ON  A DRAGON!  Why is Varys suddenly trying to manipulate events to make Jon King when he CLEARLY needs to be all-in with Dany?  

And they have not set up ANY of the tension we are supposed to feel.  NONE OF IT!  Right now, the story wants us to believe that Varys thinks that Dany needs to be removed as Queen; why?  BEcause somebody else has a better claim and OF COURSE BECAUSE THIS IS SHITTY FANTASY NOW.. that person is playing the "Reluctant Hero" nonsense.  But why does Varys want this?  What does Jon have?  People flock to him?  What about Dany?  What about the ACTUAL FLOCKS she has?  No, because now, MAYBE Dany is kind of crazy... 

... okay how?  How has she acted crazy?  She wants to kill Cersei?  Ah... fuckwits- HALF THE REALM WANTS TO KILL CERSEI!  Is half the realm nuts?  Oh, is it because Sansa doesn't like her?  Yeah... that's not a thing!  Is it because hse wants to do things her way?  Ah, yeah, Robb Fuckwit was the same way- nobody thought he was nuts!

Okay, so here is what I got:

What I Liked: 

Celebrating Out Of Necessity: I do not know if that was the vibe there were going for, but I really, REALLY liked the banquet scenes following the obligatory "Lets Burn the Dead" scene.  And I liked it because it seemed like everyone was FORCING themselves to be happy.  I thought that Sansa, Dany and even Jon (who is probably the worst character on the show right now) all seemed to be like "Well, we won, so lets be happy" but they did not seem happy.  And that worked for me.  As the night wore on, alcohol did the trick, but I got the intense feeling that these people were horribly defeated by the weight of events and were smiling out of obligation.  Everything that flowed from that reality WORKED - Jon and Dany trying to pretend they could still have a relationship; the Lannister Drinking game; the crowning of Gendry.  All of that well done, well done. 

Hey... GET A ROOM You T-... oh... you... you got a room...:  I'm not made of stone; I liked that Jaime and Brienne finally hooked up.  I think Gwendoline Christie is probably the best actor on the show right now; she does everything so well and its not easy to take Brienne's range which has to go from bewildered to crestfallen to brave to angry to helpless all in a few scenes.  I think they could have made a great couple, but alas, apparently the gravity of Narrative Forces is too strong. 

Tyrion: Hand of the King: I liked him in the struggle of defending Dany; I liked him with Sansa; I liked him with Jaime in his drinking game; and I LOVED HIM with QyburnGReat scenes, great actor, great character.  Even now where he has as much screen time as Ghost.  

What I Am On the Fence On

Oh, So When You Said 'Never Tell Anyone' What You Meant Was 'Tell Everyone': Jon Snow is just ... terrible.  So, Jon has known he is Aegon VI for like 96 hours.  And he IMMEDIATELY tells Sansa and Arya.  Sansa IMMEDIATELY tells Tyrion (like within the hour).  He then tell Varys.  And os on and so on and so on.  At this rate the only people who do not know Jon Snow is Aegon is probably Cersei and everyone on the Iron Islands.  

Which begs the question- why did he do this?  Did Jon REALLY think the "Promise-Give-Me-Your-Word" line is, like, binding?  IS he that STUPID!?  Now, remember, this is the SAME PERSON VArys (apparently) wants to lead the Seven Kingdoms, and his Intelligence Protection System is akin to "Pinky-Swear."  So, this is the guy you want to be King?  See, that would all be bad enough, except...

... the show doesn't think this is a problem.  See, they made Jon say that BECAUSE HE HAS TO!  The story is stalled after the insta-death of Night King.  They have to pick up the pace and they have like 2 hours of story left.  So they have to get this rolling by making Jon a moron AND WORSE having SIGNIFICANT characters like Tyrion, Sansa and Varys NOT see this a s a MAJOR FUCKING WEAKNESS IN JON!  

And it dove-tails into another bunch of bullshit - the fact that Jon Snow does EVERYTHING WRONG and still gets paid off for it!  FRom allowing the Wildings in to his ineptitude at the Battle of the Bastards, Jon Snow fails upwards.  And so he did again here because Varys, apparently, now wants HIM to be King.  And for dumb reasons.  

They Handled Lady Better: So, FINALLY, we saw Ghost.  And just long enough to get rid of him in the worst good-bye scene on Television since Nixon boarded the helicopter.  Holy shit, Ghost was so disposable, I half expected to see him in a landfill.  Jon doesn't even have a moment.  Now this opens the door to the fact that this is NOT the last we will see of Ghost and that opens the door to Jon returning to the REALLY North when the show ends which signifies that Dany will remain on the Throne and Jon will retire to the New Wall or just North of it.  But still... what a terrible way to end it.  

Varys: Master of Whatever The Fuck He Wants to Do Because He's the WRiter's Nuclear Option: My major problem with Varys is that Varys is the writer's foil to end storylines that get out of hand.  Basically, if they want somebody to die or somebody to lose, they just say "Varys sent word to ..."  And that character ends up dead.  This is truer in the books, but at least that is set up better there.  

But it leads to a really DUMB question - IS Varys for real?  Think about this- VArys just spent TWENTY YEARS trying to get Dany on the Iron Throne and for 19-and-a-half of those years, he has been relatively satisfied with Dany as a leader; as a person; as a potential Queen... 

... BUT ... this week he changed his mind.  Why?  Because Jon exists?  When has that EVER stopped anyone before?  BEcause she may be crazy?  How?  How is Dany showing signs of insanity?  She gets angry?  Asshole- that's like the whole show! 

But its not because of ability, right?  I mean, Dany has overseen the loss of like 1/2 of her fighting force in 6 weeks and a loss of 2/3 of the worlds's dragons.  Its possible hse's terrible at this.  But that's not the reason.  No... 

Now... my PERSONAL THEORY is that this is all a ploy.  Varys has to make sure Tyrion et al are loyal to Dany so he is setting these traps to take them down.  And that includes Sansa.  So, MAYBE this is more crafty than I think.

Then again, ... that fucking naval battle... 

That Fucking Naval Battle: So, I get it; the show has to even the odds.  If Dany has 2 dragons.  If they both make it to KIng's landing she wins.  Done. So to even the odds, you gotta kill a dragon, and Drogon has plot armor... so... But it shows how ham-fisted the show is now; there is no subtlety or intricacy to this.  So... you... have a gigantic navy... sneak up on ANOTHER Navy ... with two Dragons and you ... somehow go unnoticed and you shoot like 3 bolts at a moving dragon and you go... 3-for-3... 

Okay, so That's bullshit, right?  It was just a dumb, dumb scene.  IT was so transparent and superficial; there was no depth or intelligence to the scene.  IT was so lame.  And nothing to it was deftly done or interesting.  It just happened.  BEcause it had to.  And it was so ham-handed and so inauthentic that I EARNESTLY thought it was a dream.  That's how dumb it was.  

And... Melassandi survives long enough to get killed later?  Is that supposed to be interesting?  How?  Why?  Did Cersei pump her for info?  Did Dany tell Mel about Jon/Aegon?  Are we supposed to know? 

That Bronn Scene: So, I love that Bronn in the show; he's fun, funny, deadly and honest.  And there is something honest and sincere about him.  And that is necessary especially in a scene like when he leaves Tyrion in his place to fight the Mountain.  But he seems to feel bad.  So now... he's ... an asshole?  Okay, I get it he could have Riverrun.  But does he really want that? And does he have nothing for Jaime and Tyrion?  Two men he LITERALLY fought side-by-side with?  And for... Cersei?  He trusts Cersei now?  Why?  

Now, I liked parts of that scene- I LOVE seeing Jaime and Tyrion together and I did like seeing them unnerved.  But why are they unnerved?  Because Bronn is acting ... like book-Bronn?  THat's pretty terrible writing.  

The Kingslayer's (Re)Turn: What happened to Jaime?  It was such a stupid, silly, dumb turn.  He's happy- yet uncomfortable - in Winterfell with Brienne.  His story-line -- te desire to be a better man - is well thought out.  So... he just reverts to "Bad Jaime?"  Why? Because "Narrative Forces?" What is he doing?  Now, okay, MAYBE Jaime is going down to KL to KILL Cersei- fair.  That seems okay, so that's why I am on the fence.  But why do we have to dredge-up this long-dead idea that Jaime is a bad person doing bad things?  It's needelessly silly.  

What I Hated:

Reluctantly: Oh, fuck this.  Fuck the "Reluctant Hero" nonsense.  Why is it that EVERY fantasy trope has to be unearthed here?  Arya doesn't like to be a hero (because it's so... gauche); and Jon Snow does NOT want to be King (after having accepted being King earlier) because, if he did, it would make him, you know, something other than a cardboard cut out! Can't have that!  I hate the reluctant hero and this show has done nothing to fix that.

King's Landing Is a Theme Park: The castle in Disneyland looked more realistic than the battlements of King's Landing.  It's fucking embarrassing.  

CANNONBALL RUN III: WESTEROS EDITION!: Okay, so hear me out here.  RIght now, almost everyone in Westeros is racing to King's Landing to kill Cersei.  Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Davos, Jaime, the Hound, Arua etc are all right there just trying to get to Cersei.  It's like watching Burt Reynolds, Jaime Farr, Roger Moore, Sammy Davis Jr and that Urangatang from 'Every Which Way But Loose' trying to get there before everyone else!  BUt its not interesting because there is no chase!  Remember when people told you that "The adventure is in getting there!"?  Yeah, not in Westeros!  Here, this is all terrible and borning because there is no chase!  They are not writing the adventure; they are RACING US TO THE RESULT!  And who cares if it doesn't make sense; and who cares if it's rushed and who cares if it should not be this way- they fucked it up and now we are playing out the string! 

Look at it this way- see that list above?  Why is Bronn there and why did Jon tell his sisters and why did Jaime up and leave Winterfell and why did they let that NAVAL FLEET SNEAK UP ON THEM?  Why?  Because it's the Cannonball Run of Narrative Forces!  It doesn't matter if it does not make sense; it does not matter if its rushed; it does not matter if it seems like a hodge-podge of nonsense; it does not matter if its a smorgasbord of scenes and things happening that make no sense, seem to defy time and space and are just thrown at us- NO!  What matters is that we are racing to the end!  And you better be on board!  

This was the first episode of TV where the WHOLE EPISODE was a montage!  The dialog was unnecessary, the acting was superfluous; the information was irrelevant.  Everything was rushed and thrown at us with no continuity or connection.  It was just "TheseAreTheThingWeNeedToDoBeforeWeEndTheShowSoYouKNowItsAlmostOverWeDidNotPlanProperlySoWeDoDumbThingsNow."  

See, I complained for weeks that the first two episodes were wasted time.  And now you know what the damage is!  The damage is that the show is rushing because they wasted so much time on the back end.  NOw we HAVE to rush; We HAVE to make no sense; We HAVE to have meaningless interactions; we HAVE to have things seem superficial and pre-programmed and lifeless.  BEcause we did not leave enough time earlier to do this the right way now!

And could there BE a better metaphor for this than the production was s rushed and so lacking in care or craftsmanship or time or attention-to-detail or anything resembling professionalism than that the Internet is now a BUZZ at the fact that There was a FUCKING STARBUCKS CUP left in the open in the middle of a scene.  

THat's because they don't care about the details.  Its all in a caffeinated rush of scenes and motion and activity; sound and fury. 

And it signifies nothing.  

What's worse?  This may have been the best episode of the season.  That's how awful that all was.  

They don't care; we don't care; nobody cares anymore.  We just want to see how it ends.  

 

Edited by Rockroi

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One final eye roll at the showrunners saying that Dany forgot about Euron's navy.

Okay then.  

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So Arya is a giant plot problem right?

-They give her the Frey pie thing so we know she is capable of face changing and impersonating a liege lord for awhile and then proceeds to kill off the entire family.

-She is apparently so silent and stealthy she can run through Winterfell without anything noticing her. A castle that is overrun with an army of undead who's only purpose is kill anything living. She then kills a magical unstoppable being in the Night King with no problems what so ever.

-She is literally on her way to Kings Landing to kill Cersei.

 

And not a single person in the strategic planning session thinks "Let's send Arya to do what she is planning on doing? Hey Varys you still know all those secret passages into the red keep? Great, this should be wrapped up in less than a fortnight. No that makes no sense, how about this, let's just come up with the dumbest plan possible then forget about minor details like Eurons armada and just wing it. Sound good with everybody? Oh and make sure you all act like catty bitches just because."

 

They turned her into an unstoppable force that everyone forgot about this episode. After last week everyone was saying how pointless a war with Cersei is because of Arya, and they all were proven right. But we know she will now not be as unstoppable as she has been shown to be because... they need her not to be for the plot.

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Forgot to mention in my rant but why is starving the people of King's Landing so much more virtuous than burning them.  Dany's advisors' merciful plan is to make life so unbearably miserable for the innocent people in King's Landing that they will rise up to overthrow Cercei in what is sure to a be a bloody and brutal conflict.  Then they open the doors and welcome Dany with open arms?  Remember Stannis talking about what it was like in a siege, or Old Nan talking about mothers smothering their babies to save them from starvation?  This is what Tyrion and Varys are supporting while worrying about Dany's "state of mind."

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Just now, DolorousNick said:

The United Nations needs to sanction whichever 21st century superpower that sold laser guided technology to the Greyjoys to use on their scorpions.  That’s just irresponsible war profiteering at its worst!

But he was only able to buy the equipment because time-traveling Bran helped him! If anyone is to blame, it's Bran. I mean there has to be some regulations for bringing modern military technology to the past.

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Poor Danny, she just isn't made to be a conqueror. Ever since the poor thing left Essos its been one humiliation after the other. She started with Dragonstone, the entire south of Westeros and three dragons. One and a half season later and Danny just has Dragonstone and a single dragon without anything to show for it. Being repeatedly humiliated by Cersei and the wreckage of the Lanisters must sting, especially considering Cersei started out in such a bad state.

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I'll forgive everything if every remaining minute of the show is just Jaime beating everyone to death with his golden hand. Tastefully done, of course.

Except the Unsullied gathered outside in the...perfectly logical barren waste outside King's Landing.

To make that swim without losing their armor, shields and weapons. These are the real heroes.

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This Dany-the-Mad-Queen drama is completely artificial. The reason people fear for her state of mind is completely related to dragons being the ultimate power that makes any resistance to his will impossible and how this unchallenged authority can inevitably breed chaos and corruption. 

But said dragons have been proved to being very easily defeated twice, with the third actually being a vulnerability right now. So all the tension is fake when you really look into it.

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Thinking back to last nights episode, I realize how little I care about any character anymore. Jon is just an idiot. Tyrion is a shell of his former self. Sansa is annoying. Arya is inexplicably the greatest assassin in history. Dany’s struggle with Jon technically being the rightful ruler is interesting, but I just can’t take it seriously when she “forgets” about the Greyjoy fleet despite mentioning them prior to leaving. I’ll reserve my judgement of Jamie because his true motives for leaving are very ambiguous to me, but it just shows that D&D only care about shock value at this point

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I know we've been ranting about how awesome Cersei's new scorpions are, but there's also plenty of stupidity there, too. Why completely negate the purpose of tower tops, by building those big wooden platforms? Sure, the weapons are big, but couldn't they hide them somewhere? I don't expect any good tactical acumen from Jon, but maybe he had the foresight to take the trebuchet (dismantled and ready for re-assembly) with him, and he could use them to destroy the scorpions. I don't expect this to happen, but maybe, just maybe.

Also, they negated the gatehouse's crenelations by building a wooden platform on top for the dramatic moment with Missandei. Like, they couldn't just throw her body off the regular wall.

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