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kissdbyfire

Rant & Rave Without Repercussion [book and show spoilers]

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They are a lagging indicator, I think many pander to their fans as much as D&D (and many show runners) do.  They saw the tide turning against the show in S5 and they turned in S6.

 

I don't completely blame them, they aren't reporting on hard news where truth is essential (like that matters anyway), but they are in the business of getting people to read/listen to their work.  So they produce what people want and flavor it with their actual thoughts.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Funny to see so many reviewers picking up on blatant flaws that we’ve been ranting about for years now. Better late than never, I guess. 

I'm still surprised that this episode and not the show destroying ep. 3 that gutted huge portions of the story is the one that has taken the massive nose dive.  Is it just because "Dany" is the favorite?  No one cared all the times Jon was made a failure/loser/dumbass, but 1/2 an episode of people being mean to Dany and all of a sudden there is a bandwagon for the show is ruined?  Seems weird.  I'm glad, it's years over due but still seems weird.

Edited by Cas Stark

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, legba11 said:

Oh yea, why were the people who defected to team AoD near the end still corpsey enough for funerals?  They explode into shards when the NK dies.

Only the White Walkers exploded. The wights simply collapsed; the skeletical ones maybe shattered.

Edited by Corvinus

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8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm still surprised that this episode and not the show destroying ep. 3 that gutted huge portions of the story is the one that has taken the massive nose dive.  Is it just because "Dany" is the favorite?  No one cared all the times Jon was made a failure/loser/dumbass, but 1/2 an episode of people being mean to Dany and all of a sudden there is a bandwagon for the show is ruined?  Seems weird.  I'm glad, it's years over due but still seems weird.

I was thinking about that. Maybe the last episode was the proverbial final straw. Ep 3 was so bad in terms of... well, everything, but especially in how it completely obliterated 7 years of backstory and buildup and character “development” (using it as loosely as possible), but then everyone was expecting some super twist, or at least some sort of explanation or something? We’ve seen that here as well, “oh there’s a twist coming, you can count on it!”. Yeah, right LOL.

And then ep 4 aired and not only it was painfully bad on its own right, but there was nothing regarding the previous episode. Nothing, nada, zip, ziltch, zero. And that broke the camel’s back. 

As you say, I’m happy, since it was soooo long overdue.

 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I was thinking about that. Maybe the last episode was the proverbial final straw. Ep 3 was so bad in terms of... well, everything, but especially in how it completely obliterated 7 years of backstory and buildup and character “development” (using it as loosely as possible), but then everyone was expecting some super twist, or at least some sort of explanation or something? We’ve seen that here as well, “oh there’s a twist coming, you can count on it!”. Yeah, right LOL.

And then ep 4 aired and not only it was painfully bad on its own right, but there was nothing regarding the previous episode. Nothing, nada, zip, ziltch, zero. And that broke the camel’s back. 

As you say, I’m happy, since it was soooo long overdue.

 

Yeah, maybe.  I know some people were expecting some type of explanation or more detail on the NK from Bran.  Didn't get that.

Maybe the bad military strategy is more upsetting to people when it's in the day time, so Dany 'forgetting' about the fleet until it's shooting at her is more difficult to handwave than the big dark battle, which at least did have some cool scenes?

And the Brienne/Jamie stuff was pretty bad, not sure why they made Tyrion a bully for no apparent reason, except I guess they thought it was funny themselves.  Whose a virgin?? hahahhah.  

But I suspect that the beginning of telegraphing Dany going bad and everyone now conspiring against her and calling her intemperate or whatever [oh Varys!] was too blatant a signal for people to overlook.....that her whole story is about to be destroyed also.

Ha. What a mess.  more of a mess than I expected even with my low, low expectations.

 

Edited by Cas Stark

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I gotta say i dont really get the complaints people have with the laser guided ballistae. Surely when you're leaders a romulan youd expect at least some sort of alientech? Wouldnt make sense otherwise. 

 

The reasons brans always so distant is because he's trying to contact enterprise

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Posted (edited)

I think another reason people have just lost patience with this season is because it's the last one so everyone was expecting the pay-offs to come through but... I don't think there's been a single build up that legitimately went anywhere. Bran's journey meant nothing in the end; Arya was shoehorned into something that thematically and storywise should have been on Jon; Arya herself really is just floating without any real purpose or direction; Cersei has long since outstayed her welcome but they kept her seemingly "because Lena Headey"; Jaime and Tyrion have been spinning their wheels since S4... seriously, nothing has come of anything.

So, people are looking at the last 10 years of watching the show and realising how hollow D&D's imaginations are. They pander to drunk people in bars, giving them shock subversions - and that's it. The soul of the story has been lost because they didn't have the skill to properly weave a tale. It's just contrived jumping from one point to another with no internal logic other than: "We want this thing to happen so let's make it happen and then say, 'Oh, the character forgot!' or 'Oh we wanted to be subversive."

Edited by Faera

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6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Yeah, maybe.  I know some people were expecting some type of explanation or more detail on the NK from Bran.  Didn't get that.

Nope. And it won’t happen either. No explanation, no sudden resurfacing of a 2nd NK or other WWs or any type of threat related to that stuff. The whole thing was totally dropped unceremoniously, and it’s a wrap. 

6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Maybe the bad military strategy is more upsetting to people when it's in the day time, so Dany 'forgetting' about the fleet until it's shooting at her is more difficult to handwave than the big dark battle, which at least did have some cool scenes?

Possibly. It becomes much more obvious, innit? When you can actually see clearly how stupid the whole thing was. 

I swear, I will never ever understand it. But even after Rhaegal fell, why does Dany only screams AAAAARRRGG and doesn’t go Dracarys on their arses is completely beyond explanation.

6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

And the Brienne/Jamie stuff was pretty bad, not sure why they made Tyrion a bully for no apparent reason, except I guess they thought it was funny themselves.  Whose a virgin?? hahahhah.  

Fuck them. Fuck them, fuck them fuck them. That was so goddam awful, I can’t even. They really don’t understand Jaime or just hate him or both. I feel for NCW, he’s been so amazing w/ the crap he’s been given. It’s truly very sad, what they’ve done. 

And even if there is some type of twist, it’s still utter shite. Because if that’s the case, if he’s going to KL to off Cersei, he should have told Brienne!!!! He should never have said the things he said, unless it’s all true. So either way, they ruined the whole thing. FUCK THEM.

6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

But I suspect that the beginning of telegraphing Dany going bad and everyone now conspiring against her and calling her intemperate or whatever [oh Varys!] was too blatant a signal for people to overlook.....that her whole story is about to be destroyed also.

 

This. I’m not a Dany fan books or show ( I don’t hate her, or even dislike her like I do Tyrion, but not a fan either). But I really don’t like how they’re handling any of this, and I’m definitely not looking forward to whatever it is they’re going to do. 

6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Ha. What a mess.  more of a mess than I expected even with my low, low expectations.

 

Ditto.

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8 hours ago, LokisRaider said:

This whole plot has been forced so hard onto the viewer and it is unbearable to watch. She just started hating her and not trusting her because she's super smart or something. Even last episode when Dany was fighting against the undead and her army was getting annihilated (until we found out this episode 50% of all forces survived because they didn't even watch the episode they filmed where everyone died) Sansa was bitching about her. And then after the battle that Dany sacrificed her whole army (minus the 50% reducing the actual impact of last weeks episode) Sansa is still treating her like she is some untrustworthy adversary. Sansa alienating someone who has just proven what a valuable ally she is is one of the reason Dany is cracking. 

 

Because of Sansa and the terrible storytelling I find myself finally rooting for Dany for the first time. I know the show is doing their best to force us into thinking the mad queen is coming, and that she is evil. I hope it does happen at this point. Sansa is an insufferable bitch with no redeeming qualities and ads nothing but high school level drama to the show. I hope Dany fly's Drogon right up to Winterfell and gives Sansa some Fire and Blood treatment.

I totally agree with you! I am actually starting to feel bad for Dany!! 

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Can't wait for something completely illogical and beyond batshit crazy to happen next episode....like Qyburn resurrecting Rhaegal or something equally dumbfuck...

...and some people will be surprised something so ridiculous and out-of-place was in the show.

 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Faera said:

I think another reason people have just lost patience with this season is because it's the last one so everyone was expecting the pay-offs to come through but... I don't think there's been a single build up that legitimately went anywhere. Bran's journey meant nothing in the end; Arya was shoehorned into something that thematically and storywise should have been on Jon; Arya herself really is just floating without any real purpose or direction; Cersei has long since outstayed her welcome but they kept her seemingly "because Lena Headey"; Jaime and Tyrion have been spinning their wheels since S4... seriously, nothing has come of anything. So, people are looking at the last 10 years of watching the show and realising how hollow D&D's imaginations are. They pander to drunk people in bars, giving them shock subversions - and that's it. The soul of the story has been lost because they didn't have the skill to properly weave a tale.

So, people are disheartened and annoyed because it really is just characters moving about from place to place, doing stuff without good reason.

I totally agree it’s disappointing, watching all of these seasons and finally realizing that the initial characters became caricatures of what they used to be.

cersei should have been dead already. She doesn’t qualify for the ultimate villain. 

Bran and John proved to be a disaster. Because of them the Night king acquired the Dragon and passed the wall. What was this?

john’s identity was only for political play and to drive his aunt crazy. He doesn’t want the throne so after destroying  the wall and Dany Lol, apparently he is not needed anymore. 

The prophecy proved to be nonsense, we can all forget about it. 

Tyrion turned to be useless. We are still looking for his use. Even his jokes are not jokes anymore. 

Sansa was saved to become another Littlefinger, back stabbing the ones that saved her life. 

The night king came and finished in our hour, so long for eight seasons of anticipation. 

And Danys arc was all about going crazy after Westeros destroyed her with their nonsense, taking away from her all she held dear, without even a recognition. No breaking the wheel. Just taking her out of the way because John has a cock. 

Great lessons!

 

 

Edited by Nightwish

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3 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Aerys was king.  Rhaegar was his heir.  Jon is Rhaegar's son.  That puts him ahead of any of Rhaegar's siblings, male or female.  It would put him ahead of Dany even if he were female. 

Gendry was a bastard, and in the show at least Jon was not, but trueborn. 

Well, actually, there's a pretty damn big catch with that.

See, because in the books, it is known to be said that Aerys disinherited Rhaegar and his children in favor of making Viserys his heir before Rhaegar had actually been killed. Viserys was crowned King on Dragonstone by his mother and the unborn Dany was pronounced as his heir. Viserys was introduced in Game as the King of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men and Dany was introduced as his heir, the Princess of Dragonstone.

So, there's a bit of debate of whether or not:

  • Rhaegar's children have been, in effect, completely removed from the line of succession and made nominal bastards by their grandfather
  • Aerys' decision to make Viserys his heir can and should be respected

Aegon, Jon and Daenerys all have really strong claims. No claim is truly stronger than the other and Dany's claim is only "weak" because she is female.

 

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7 hours ago, darmody said:

I'm confused by this. Sansa is feminine, but she's not meek. At least not anymore. Arya and Brienne both fell in bed beside characters with whom they had long relationships beforehand. 

They didn't put themselves in Sansa's position, which was trusting Little Finger to hand her off to the family that betrayed her mother and brother. But that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with badassery. They got lucky, both of them. Arya because she found the Hound and the Faceless Man, Brienne because Jaime talked her would-be rapists down. 

Also, it's not like Sansa suffered because of femininity or meekness. Ramsay married her for her name, not her qualities. 

She  was much more timid prior to her marriage to Ramsay. At this point in the show, Sansa still had the reputation for being the "stupid little girl who believed in fairy tales." At the end of season four, she tried to assert some power by emulating Littlefinger. . . only to be immediately beaten down and locked in a rape tower for the rest of season five. To me it just felt like she was being punished for trying to assert power, even if that's not the way the showrunners intended it. Fighting with a sword is okay, but using your "feminine wiles" demands punishment.

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4 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

See, because in the books, it is known to be said that Aerys disinherited Rhaegar and his children in favor of making Viserys his heir before Rhaegar had actually been killed

There’s zero indication that it did happen. All we have is some lords/councillors/whatever suggesting that idea to Aerys. .

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I'm honestly still shocked that no one sees Jon's inability to play the game and keep a secret as a MAJOR political weakness.

He blatantly disregards the people under his command for the sake of "the greater good" and then acts shocked when those people desert him, undermine him, convey their deep frustration and disappointment or attempt to assassinate him.

1 hour ago, legba11 said:

Oh yea, why were the people who defected to team AoD near the end still corpsey enough for funerals?  They explode into shards when the NK dies.

Meh, it's always been really inconsistent looking back on it.

Sometimes, they explode, sometimes they disintegrate and melt, sometimes they just keel over.

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

There’s zero indication that it did happen. All we have is some lords/councillors/whatever suggesting that idea to Aerys. .

Yes, it is a rumor that Viserys was made the heir and that all that is concrete in regards to that are Aerys' councilors suggestions. But it is clear that Aerys would still, in fact, listened to certain councilors. He ended up humiliating, torturing, killing or banishing many of them but he listened. Who is to say that Aerys didn't do it: he listened to Varys and Pycelle to his detriment.

But the rumors about Jon's birthplace being in Dorne have been clear since the first book. And notice how a good handful of few people (correctly) including Catelyn would find it strange that Ned Stark (!!!) would father a bastard in Dorne (!!!) when he was clearly in the Eyrie as a ward of Jon Arryn....and for that baby to still be roughly the same age as his trueborn son Robb.

And it is also rumored 

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12 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Well, actually, there's a pretty damn big catch with that.

See, because in the books, it is known to be said that Aerys disinherited Rhaegar and his children in favor of making Viserys his heir before Rhaegar had actually been killed. Viserys was crowned King on Dragonstone by his mother and the unborn Dany was pronounced as his heir. Viserys was introduced in Game as the King of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men and Dany was introduced as his heir, the Princess of Dragonstone.

So, there's a bit of debate of whether or not:

  • Rhaegar's children have been, in effect, completely removed from the line of succession and made nominal bastards by their grandfather
  • Aerys' decision to make Viserys his heir can and should be respected

Aegon, Jon and Daenerys all have really strong claims. No claim is truly stronger than the other and Dany's claim is only "weak" because she is female.

 

Because of the edicts following the dance of the dragons, in order to ensure the Targaryens would never war against themselves again, even an expressly declared female Targaryen heir (even in cases where they would be the legitimate direct heir) takes lower precedence to any living Male heir (even one that isn't a legitimate heir). Technically, one could argue, that even a Male Blackfyre has more legitimacy than a female Targaryen

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