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Rant & Rave Without Repercussion [book and show spoilers]

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Is this interview true?

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a27163860/game-of-thrones-season-8-kit-harington-critics-fk-themselves/

Because anyone saying that this season has decent writing or that ep 3 is something aceptable deserves a fuck you. It doesn t matter if the people involved in the show worked very hard if the writing is abismal. We end up with a piece of shit!

And if the people involved in the show care so much then they should have come forward when they read the scripts and saw that they were awful! 

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1 minute ago, Blaer Dayle said:

Because of the edicts following the dance of the dragons, in order to ensure the Targaryens would never war against themselves again, even an expressly declared female Targaryen heir (even in cases where they would be the legitimate direct heir) takes lower precedence to any living Male heir (even one that isn't a legitimate heir). Technically, one could argue, that even a Male Blackfyre has more legitimacy than a female Targaryen

True.

I find it funny however, that in spite of that, the children of the female heir who was, in fact, the true one became the heir. Every Targaryen royal since the Dance of Dragons has been a descendant of Rhaenyra, the true heir. The line of Aegon II died out in one of the most unspectacular ways possible.

The misogyny amongst the Targaryen family is bizarre considering that they spent so much time talking about Targaryen exceptionalism when the entire realm treated their womenfolk twice as better (in Dorne, the womenfolk are treated 5x as better) than the Targaryens did.

That is just bizarre. Especially considering that before the era of the Seven Kingdoms, the Targaryen women were equal in every way to the men. Even Rhaenys, for all of her girlishness and femininity, wore armor, wielded a sword and rode into battle at the head of armies. It's strange how quickly that ended under the rule of Jaehaerys, don't you that.

This exclusion of the inheritance rights of the Targaryen women has everything to do to Jaehaerys. Because Jaehaerys is simply another Maegor, an uncle who stole the birthright of his nieces. When Maegor was defeated, Aerea should have become Queen. Hell, even Rhaena becoming the ruling Queen makes more sense than Jaehaerys.

For Jaehaerys to respect the rights of the women in his own family...that would actually delegitimize him

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14 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Yes, it is a rumor that Viserys was made the heir and that all that is concrete in regards to that are Aerys' councilors suggestions. But it is clear that Aerys would still, in fact, listened to certain councilors. He ended up humiliating, torturing, killing or banishing many of them but he listened. Who is to say that Aerys didn't do it: he listened to Varys and Pycelle to his detriment.

But the rumors about Jon's birthplace being in Dorne have been clear since the first book. And notice how a good handful of few people (correctly) including Catelyn would find it strange that Ned Stark (!!!) would father a bastard in Dorne (!!!) when he was clearly in the Eyrie as a ward of Jon Arryn....and for that baby to still be roughly the same age as his trueborn son Robb.

And it is also rumored 

Yeah, I disagree. Disagree that it’s “clear Aerys would listen” (paraphrasing). Also, he listened to Pycelle, not Varys. Varys urged him to keep the gates shut. 

But this is widely OT as it is a book discussion. I (and others) was (we’re) told to  keep it on topic: show stuff we don’t like, so I’ll bow out of this discussion. 

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Instant travel to create fake tension.

All that "few days of rest" argument was utterly pointless without instant teleport (then again instant teleport makes it irrelevant as well). In a journey taking a month, taking 2-3 days rest to then march faster makes utter sense. And since Dany would also have to get her army to the White arbor, quite some way away, and then sail yadda yadda... Again, it would be a non-issue.

 

Instant travel leads to fake tension. 

 

Also while Dany definitely has some problems... Sansa just got full Littlefinger. It's not about her being not over the moon about the Dragon Queen... But after several repetitions of how the Starks have to stick together, she gets Jon to share his giant skeleton in the crypts and... She betrays his trust. Once again she blabs to a Lannister, this time with full knowledge of what it will start. Even Jon will probably be able to put two and two together, eventually, and I cannot imagine he would be happy about it. If he lives and does not sit on the IT, he would probably go into self-imposed exile behind the Wall.

 

Sneaky Euron, master shot with unique rapidfire ballista, is just... Ridiculous. Even more so than everyone teleporting. But the naval battle was even more ludicrous. One has to wonder why ships of the line would bother with broadsides of 32pdr and heavier guns when all it would take would be few ballistas, presumably manned by 20 good men. One would also wonder how Aegon was able to conquer Westeros with beasts so easy to shoot down from outside their engagement envelope.

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19 minutes ago, divica said:

Is this interview true?

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a27163860/game-of-thrones-season-8-kit-harington-critics-fk-themselves/

Because anyone saying that this season has decent writing or that ep 3 is something aceptable deserves a fuck you. It doesn t matter if the people involved in the show worked very hard if the writing is abismal. We end up with a piece of shit!

And if the people involved in the show care so much then they should have come forward when they read the scripts and saw that they were awful! 

I agree with you, plus the script had an extra year to be written and the plot is just from another world. They were doing far better job when they didn’t try so hard. 

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3 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

So, I've been hearing around (not here necessarily) that one argument from characters in the show about supporting Jon over Dany for the throne is that he's the "rightful" heir. This confuses me. I'll admit, I'm not watching this season (I missed the first episode, then all the bad feedback allowed me to cancel HBO and just enjoy this thread), but why is Jon's claim any better than Dany's? From what I remember from the books, Rhaegar may have married Lyanna in secret, but did he divorce (or whatever) Elia? If he did, does that annul the rightful claim that his other children had? If not, then Jon's claim seems shaky. Especially since this was all in secret. I'm no lineage expert, but Jon's claim seems less valid than Dany's who is not secretly the sister of Rhaegar, but actually the sister of Rhaegar. Jon is secretly the son of two people who secretly married. His claim is as strong as Gendry's to Storms End--which is to say, Jon is a good successor if Dany dies. 

I mean, Jon's existence is a threat to Dany's claim, but he in no way is the clear front runner for the throne. Shit, Gendry has a better claim to the Iron Throne than Jon at this point since the throne was won by Baratheon conquest. So it would seem that whoever takes the throne from Cersei gets the throne. If Dany does all the work, it doesn't make sense that Tyrion and Vaerys would be like, "Hold on, let's look at these royal papers of yours..."

Rhaegar's first marriage was annulled. That's what Sam read in the diary (after Gilly found it). Jon comes before his aunt in the line of succession that was broken by Jaime's sword and Robert's hammer. 

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Another thing that bothers me about the episode is the scene where Dany is sitting alone realising people like Jon are more popular. But why was she alone in the first place? There should have been people asking her about her life. I know if I was there I would want to know about the day dragons were born or what it was like when the former slaves marched out of Yunkai. These are stories that people would want to know so not seeing any of that just to push the Danaerys slowly snapping angle and being sad that Jon is more popular is awful writing.

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3 minutes ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Dany definitely has some problems... Sansa just got full Littlefinger. It's not about her being not over the moon about the Dragon Queen... But after several repetitions of how the Starks have to stick together, she gets Jon to share his giant skeleton in the crypts and... She betrays his trust. Once again she blabs to a Lannister, this time with full knowledge of what it will start. Even Jon will probably be able to put two and two together, eventually, and I cannot imagine he would be happy about it. If he lives and does not sit on the IT, he would probably go into self-imposed exile behind the Wall.

To be fair, this is how Sansa has been written since season Six. Remember when her dear little brother Rickon, presumptive King in the North, was taken hostage and she was all, "Screw him; he's a dead man," when she had knowledge of a friendly army nearby? The existence of which she withheld from dear presumptive half-brother Jon. The commander of her forces. Which were substantially his forces . 

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Just now, Nightwish said:

I agree with you, plus the script had an extra year to be written and the plot is just from another world. They were doing far better job when they didn’t try so hard. 

I can accept that he and everybody involved in the show worked really hard to do a good job filming the show. And that it is hard to hear that their work sucks...

But nobody is saying the acting, make up, clothing or whatever are bad… It isn t normal that among such great fans people don t come together and say that the scripts are a piece of garbage.

I mean, how can a fan not even know the right bastard name gendry should have? hundreds or thousands of people watched that scene. Nobody knew? nobody cared enough to come forward and say that it shouldn t be his name? And this is a really small detail...

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5 minutes ago, Ghostlydragon said:

Another thing that bothers me about the episode is the scene where Dany is sitting alone realising people like Jon are more popular. But why was she alone in the first place? There should have been people asking her about her life. I know if I was there I would want to know about the day dragons were born or what it was like when the former slaves marched out of Yunkai. These are stories that people would want to know so not seeing any of that just to push the Danaerys slowly snapping angle and being sad that Jon is more popular is awful writing.

This whole season has had awful writing. D&D decided to have everyone on Dany side forget about Euron and his fleet. Seriously they're all going to forget about a enemy fleet that ambushed your fleet, not once but twice and now a third time. 

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10 minutes ago, divica said:

I can accept that he and everybody involved in the show worked really hard to do a good job filming the show. And that it is hard to hear that their work sucks...

But nobody is saying the acting, make up, clothing or whatever are bad… It isn t normal that among such great fans people don t come together and say that the scripts are a piece of garbage.

I mean, how can a fan not even know the right bastard name gendry should have? hundreds or thousands of people watched that scene. Nobody knew? nobody cared enough to come forward and say that it shouldn t be his name? And this is a really small detail...

Yes, exactly. The point isn’t the great costumes, the impressive effects, the realistic landmarks and the cinematography, everything was great, but can not compensate the lack of a good solid consistent script that creates all the base for this fantasy world to stand. 

And what’s more important fans can not theorize anymore because they don’t trust the characters and can’t judge what is intentionally planted or is just bad writing. Things don’t make sense anymore. 

From a script point of view they couldn’t pull it off without martins original material as a base and it became evident especially after season 4. 

 

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6 hours ago, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Missansei: "Our people are peaceful"

Also Missandei: "DRACARYS!"

:bs:

Yup, I thought about this one, too.  It was like Ellaria's book reversal in one word. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Show only: Sam (really Gilly) found the diary of the septon who married Rhaegar and Lyanna, and apparently, annul his marriage to Elia. So Jon is the lawful son of Rhaegar. You're right that the secrecy of the marriage poses a problem, and it could result in lords choosing to believe the truth of that document or not. Otherwise, his claim is better based on the Westerosi succession laws.

That's right--I forgot that the show did that. Has anything come of the diary--or is all this revelation about Jon based on Bran (which, objectively speaking, Bran seems like a bad source since he and Jon are "brothers)? I guess it doesn't matter. It is not clear at all.

4 hours ago, Nightwish said:

For anyone becoming King or Queen, they have to conquer the throne first, apparently. Dany is using her lineage and her right to the throne so that people can support her quest. Apparently neither John's claim has any meaning if he does not fight to get the throne. 

But being a male Targaryen descendant and from the north  can fire up a "rebellion" against Dany's claim creating another front. At least that's the way I see it. 

I guess this is right. And Dany has dragons. I agree the biggest issue with Jon is he could rise up a rebellion--but the North in the show is a fickle group of petty lords. And as far as Dany's advisers go who seem to be leaning more toward Jon (this is how I'm reading the newest episode--I haven't seen it), I think they'd handle Jon more like they've always handled risks. They have them murdered. I mean, if Jon hatched his own dragons, then I guess the evidence would be stronger, but as it is, the writers are really making some leaps in logic. I think if Jon wanted to make a claim, he'd have a real uphill battle on that one.

4 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Aerys was king.  Rhaegar was his heir.  Jon is Rhaegar's son.  That puts him ahead of any of Rhaegar's siblings, male or female.  It would put him ahead of Dany even if he were female. 

Gendry was a bastard, and in the show at least Jon was not, but trueborn. 

But this is what I'm pointing out, that all the logic of what you're saying really isn't logical. Jon is the secret son of a secret wedding and a secret annulment that only Jon's brother knows about, and apparently some diary hidden in the citadel. None of this is very convincing. If you're looking at this from the outside, you might say, "Anyone could create a false narrative like this. I mean, we're lucky we don't have a false Aegon running around out there!" You know Dany is a Targ, but believing Jon is a Targ (as a character in the story) takes way more leaps in logic. Plus Jon sucks. Any time he becomes King, he kneels to the next person who asserts strength toward him. He really, really sucks.

Anyway, this might be true, but Jon doesn't have dragons, and all of this stuff was done in secret. So...it seems pretty convoluted to me, and really, out of sync with Tyrion and Vaerys to think "Oh, he's the real heir." It's sloppy writing, I'd say. The point about Gendry is not what we know as readers to be true, but it seems equally plausible someone could produce a false diary that says Robert secretly annulled his marriage with Cersei (and never told her) and married Gendry's mother making Gendry the heir to the iron throne. And didn't Gendry get legitimated and given Storm's End? Doesn't that make him the next Baratheon/AKA new King of Westeros? 

Edited by Simon Steele

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1 hour ago, Faera said:

I think another reason people have just lost patience with this season is because it's the last one so everyone was expecting the pay-offs to come through but... I don't think there's been a single build up that legitimately went anywhere. Bran's journey meant nothing in the end; Arya was shoehorned into something that thematically and storywise should have been on Jon; Arya herself really is just floating without any real purpose or direction; Cersei has long since outstayed her welcome but they kept her seemingly "because Lena Headey"; Jaime and Tyrion have been spinning their wheels since S4... seriously, nothing has come of anything.

So, people are looking at the last 10 years of watching the show and realising how hollow D&D's imaginations are. They pander to drunk people in bars, giving them shock subversions - and that's it. The soul of the story has been lost because they didn't have the skill to properly weave a tale. It's just contrived jumping from one point to another with no internal logic other than: "We want this thing to happen so let's make it happen and then say, 'Oh, the character forgot!' or 'Oh we wanted to be subversive."

Haha I think you're referring to the Burlington Bar people ? If so...2 thumbs up from me. They're such mindless sheep.

 

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3 minutes ago, Simon Steele said:

I guess this is right. And Dany has dragons a dragon. 

FTFY.

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1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

True.

I find it funny however, that in spite of that, the children of the female heir who was, in fact, the true one became the heir. Every Targaryen royal since the Dance of Dragons has been a descendant of Rhaenyra, the true heir. The line of Aegon II died out in one of the most unspectacular ways possible.

The misogyny amongst the Targaryen family is bizarre considering that they spent so much time talking about Targaryen exceptionalism when the entire realm treated their womenfolk twice as better (in Dorne, the womenfolk are treated 5x as better) than the Targaryens did.

That is just bizarre. Especially considering that before the era of the Seven Kingdoms, the Targaryen women were equal in every way to the men. Even Rhaenys, for all of her girlishness and femininity, wore armor, wielded a sword and rode into battle at the head of armies. It's strange how quickly that ended under the rule of Jaehaerys, don't you that.

This exclusion of the inheritance rights of the Targaryen women has everything to do to Jaehaerys. Because Jaehaerys is simply another Maegor, an uncle who stole the birthright of his nieces. When Maegor was defeated, Aerea should have become Queen. Hell, even Rhaena becoming the ruling Queen makes more sense than Jaehaerys.

For Jaehaerys to respect the rights of the women in his own family...that would actually delegitimize him

For sure. The Targaryen's definitely have a checkered history, when it comes to moral sanctity, belief in personal superiority, winning praise, through conflict, narcissistic, and delusional outlooks, and an inability to admit fault.

I get the feeling that GRRM, is playing on the idea of old magic/kinslaying curses, being responsible for the unceremonious decline of the Male lineage, and their deposition by the rightful female line retaking their rightful spot in the secession.

 

Going any further on this is interesting discussion, but is however going more into book territory, and further from the show, and is probably too far O/T for this thread. I'd be happy to discuss it elsewhere though, if you wish to

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I'm honestly still shocked that no one sees Jon's inability to play the game and keep a secret as a MAJOR political weakness.

He blatantly disregards the people under his command for the sake of "the greater good" and then acts shocked when those people desert him, undermine him, convey their deep frustration and disappointment or attempt to assassinate him.

Meh, it's always been really inconsistent looking back on it.

Sometimes, they explode, sometimes they disintegrate and melt, sometimes they just keel over.

Yeah, everyone says (I mean reviewers and dumb asses) that Jon's "just like Ned." No. No he's not. Ned was honorable to a fault, but could keep a damned secret for the good of those he loved, of the realm, etc.

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Yes, it is a rumor that Viserys was made the heir and that all that is concrete in regards to that are Aerys' councilors suggestions. But it is clear that Aerys would still, in fact, listened to certain councilors. He ended up humiliating, torturing, killing or banishing many of them but he listened. Who is to say that Aerys didn't do it: he listened to Varys and Pycelle to his detriment.

But the rumors about Jon's birthplace being in Dorne have been clear since the first book. And notice how a good handful of few people (correctly) including Catelyn would find it strange that Ned Stark (!!!) would father a bastard in Dorne (!!!) when he was clearly in the Eyrie as a ward of Jon Arryn....and for that baby to still be roughly the same age as his trueborn son Robb.

And it is also rumored 

This rumor is enough to counter the rumor of a secret wedding, I'd say. While this is all very complicated, all that DnD would have to do is not have Dany's closest advisers play a points game when they learned about Jon. They pledged to her, she has dragons (or a dragon as noted above, but she is the mother of three dragons), yet a rumor about Jon makes them do some mental calculus that throws their loyalty into question. I hope Dany burns them all--Jon first.

Back in the early 00's when I finished Storm, this series was all I could think about. It stuck in my brain. Every sad song I heard on the radio, I thought of the Red Wedding! This show (really since about the first episode) has ruined that for me. If Martin finished the books, I couldn't read them. I'd be reminded too much of the hokey nonsense on screen. I don't think I could read the Red Wedding again without thinking of the absurd screen rendition. Well, at least I still have Dune. I swear, if the Ds get anywhere near Dune, I'm breaking all my electronics and never watching anything again.

Edited by Simon Steele

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Nothing is done organically in this show. Everything is contrived.

Dialogue is for exposition or telling the audience what we should think about characters, which is often at odds with the way they have been written or portrayed.

Storytelling is about skipping the actual story elements for the sake of "shock and awe", at the expense of good build-up.

Character arcs are all over the place, always malleable so the shock moments are as surprising as possible.

It's sort of like how I imagine two penny dreadful writers would do trying to adapt War And Peace.

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8 hours ago, Frances Bean Corbray said:

the fucking Starbucks cup, man.

Seriously.

the fucking Starbucks cup.

Dude, that's Season 8 in a nutshell.

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