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Rant & Rave Without Repercussion [book and show spoilers]

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I haven't posted in this forum in years (although I do come in and read) and I'm so fucking pissed off that I just have to say a few things. Dire Wolves... The stark sigil, they're on their shields, their banners, we've been brainwashed about the unbreakable bonding between each Stark and their wolf. Fuck it! It was a lie.

The Nights King and his army of the dead. Fuck them, they mean nothing. Just a fairy tale told by old Nan.

R'holler.. "The night is dark and full of terror" Yea, Ok, whatever.

Valonquar , Who?

Dragons... wimps

What is Jon Snow's purpose? Ditto for Bran, Night King, Araya, Dire Wolves, etc. 

Everyone is bashing the D's and rightly so. But lets not omit the worst butcher of them all... George RR Martin! It was you George who went for the big pay day and allowed these two fuck wads to totally destroy you books. It was you who didn't have a clause in the contract to nix their buffoonery writing. It was you who left your loyal readers waiting and waiting for years for you to finish the next book only to move on to a ton of other projects while we, the fans who have always been there for you, throwing our time and money to you with the expectation that you would continue writing and finish the next book get screwed. Fuck you George! Unfortunately you don't understand the contract you have with your fans/ex fans. Here's how it works. You write a book that attracts our interest and we buy it and patiently wait for the next book in the series. We wait for years for you to finish your work and don't complain because you have us hooked and your a fantastic writer and we understand that quality takes time. You put the second book out and we throw our money at you and eagerly await the next book in the series. You throw in other books like the Dunk and Egg short stories and the Princes and the Queen story and we throw more money and time at you because it's good writing and it's relevant to ASOIAF. But along the way your writing becomes so popular that you get an offer to sell out to HBO and finally get to cash in. We all said "good for George, he deserves to make some money from his years of work". But you then break the contract you have with your loyal fans and let two hacks destroy your story. You let two hacks run roughshod over your loyal fan base. You sold your story telling skills and abilities to corporate America and told your fans... the very people who supported you when you were just another run of the mill writer to FUCK OFF! Well George, Fuck you and your HBO millions, Fuck you and your Winds of Winter book that you have been promising us for years. I hope you fucking die and your lasting legacy is the hack job and destruction of your books that you allowed D&D to shove up our asses.

Fuck You George RR Martin! I won't be throwing anymore of my hard earned money or time your way.

What a fucking dick you turned out to be! 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, El Diego said:

Jamie is supposed to show the most growth as an ethical person. A big part of his identity is that he has never been independent. He was first born, a preternaturally gifted fighter, handsome, all of which meant that his father and the King used him as a pawn. Jamie was never able to develop his own identity or ethic, and his only source of closeness was his toxic relationship to his sister. Then, the one time he acted correctly is when he killed the King, which becomes the thing everyone hates him for so he continues to not care about doing the right thing. 

This isn't right, exactly. Jaime and Cersei's relationship is sick and contrary to the laws of gods and man, but it was his choice, I think. We're not to believe Cersei manipulated him into it. He also made a choice to join the Kingsguard, against the objections of his father. Aerys didn't have to take him, of course, and Jaime was used by those two powerful men to antagonize eachother. But it was Jaime's choice.

Becoming Kingslayer was a pivotal moment, when he chose the people of King's Landing and his father over his duty. It marked him for life. He was either too proud to justify himself or he didn't feel he could explain. But ever since it's been a source of frustration. He wanted to be a great knight and fill that book of deeds, but his great deed was a crime. His father told him not to care about public opinion, but that's what good people do.

Tywin was right when he said Jaime wants people to think he doesn't care. That was his persona. Kingslayer, great swordsman, glorified bodyguard, handsome son of the richest man in Westeros, yes. But above all Mr. Cool. Mr. Cage-rattler. The way he antagonized Ned immediately at the feast in the first episode. Ugh. That was because Jaime was too much his own man. Except around Robert back then, he's willful. Challenging people constantly. Getting his way. It's certainly not Tywin's idea for him to attack Ned at the brothel.

When Cersei worries about Bran recovering consciousness, Jaime is the one who gives that speech about killing everybody until they're the only two left in the world. Which Cersei later echoes, only she really means it and proves so by blowing up the Sept. Jaime's gradual redemption arc has centered around getting away from this selfish mindset. Meeting people who aren't Cersei, championing the causes of those weaker than he, not being a douche all the time. 

That was interrupted from season 5 to the end of season Seven, when he decisively split from Cersei to fight the dead. Now I hope he is going to kill Cersei instead of falling back into that hole of selfishness. 

Edited by darmody

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7 hours ago, divica said:

I find that rating completly astonishing.

Was this ep so much worse than the other eps this season? or even season 7?

And I am not saying that the rating should be higher. I am saying that a lot of episodes should have lower ratings.

This episode is taking the blame for the previous episode, in part. 

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Woot! I've been ranting to myself all week. Here comes some catharsis...

Gendry and his proposal? He knows her better than that. Felt fan service-y.

The Jaimie/Brienne situation; They hook up, fine. But then Jamie initially decides to stay at Winterfell because of her, which seems like an odd choice for someone who has so many personal stakes attached to the outcome of the KL showdown. But ok, maybe he's tired of fighting and really wants to prove he's a better person by staying with Brienne. That would be a continuation of sorts in his character arc. Aaaannd then, he changes his mind. He, sort of callously, tells her he's not a good man and his sister is (in one way or another) the most important person in his life. Then he bounces. It was a pretty quick 180 degree turn from a character who has been progressively improving as a sympathetic/trustworthy person over the last several seasons, in no small part to his relationship with Brienne. If they wanted us to shift our perception of Jaime back towards an earlier version of him that would've been fine and keeping with the theme of living in the grey area between tropes of right and wrong. But to do it so late in the game doesn't seem worth it and makes me feel like if Jaime dies without doing something amazing a great character will go out on a sour note.

Last thing; Euron Greyjoy. This guy just shows up out of nowhere over and over to destroy some shit. You're telling me a fleet of 20 ships or so (I forget how many they actually showed in the episode) can go undetected by another fleet and two flying dragons until they're so close you could almost throw a peach pit from Tyrion's ship to one of Euron's? I think the writers of the show never really knew what to do with Euron's character, but liked the idea of having a crazy pirate in the mix. He's underdeveloped and used almost exclusively as a way to slow the plot down when action starts moving towards the next episode.

That's all! Otherwise I really enjoyed the episode ;) I feel better all ready.

 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, divica said:

I find that rating completly astonishing.

Was this ep so much worse than the other eps this season? or even season 7?

And I am not saying that the rating should be higher. I am saying that a lot of episodes should have lower ratings.

 

9 hours ago, Dragons 7th Eye said:

I think many people loved the show so much that they were willing to forgive a lot of stupid stuff for a single loot train scene. Now that their favourite characters (everyone's pretty much) are not as much killed as ruined, they are becoming disillusioned.

I've already made a post about my thoughts on the episode here but I'm willing to elaborate.
Now, I can only speak for myself, but given that I'm part of the (increasingly) large group of people who's rated this episode a "1" (first time ever for me), I'm probably not entirely alone in thinking this. The gist of the matter is this: Are you believing what the show is telling you or not?

Rant incoming in 3....2.....1....

First thing's first: Questionable writing, lack of logic, glaring plotholes and characters that aren't always behaving as they should is nothing new to this show. 
With that said however, I have always been able to look past these issues, because ultimately, there has always been the tiniest spark of logic, or hint of a possibility, a maybe, or viable excuse, or ultimately because of good ol' suspension of disbelief. Basically I've always been able to believe what the story is telling me, even if I sometimes have to convince myself first, no matter how stupid, contrived or illogical it seems at first.

Case and point:
- Arya waltzing around in Braavos like she owned the place before getting stabbed in the gut multiple times by the Waif and ultimately surviving the whole ordeal. 
OK, so this was rough. I remember this all too well, most of us where convinced that there was a twist, but ultimately nope, it was just Arya being an idiot and ending up lucky. Ultimately, I can believe what I see here, even if I don't really like it. Maybe Arya is waltzing around in Braavos because she doesn't expect the Waif to find her, it's a big city after all. Maybe the adrenaline kept her going after she fled, and evidently Lady Crane managed to patch her up with her previously unknown healing-skills. Unlikely, but seemingly not impossible, because Arya did survive. Or you know, R'hllor because Nightking...
Ultimately, it's stupid, but I can still believe it. 

- Euron fleet finding Yaras fleet  and then appearing at Casterly Rock shortly after.
Euron seemingly has a radar and a cloaking device, further proven by the latest episode, but back in S7, while unlikely, I didn't find it entirely impossible for him to find Yara and assault them in the middle of the night. Maybe he really expected them to sail to Dorne and maybe he had scouted out her position. It's not entirely impossible, I'm willing to buy it for the sake of suspense. 
The fact that he later shows up to ambush Daenerys fleet at Casterly Rock seems unlikely, but it's not impossible. We don't much time has passed, and maybe his fleet sailed faster than whatever fleet was carrying the Unsullied to Casterly Rock. They are ironborn after all, sailing is what they do.
Again, this doesn't all make total sense, but there's enough "maybe's" in there for me to accept and believe what the show is telling me.

- Arya being the one to deal the killing blow to the Nightking.
This has already been proven to be a classic case of subverting the expected just for the sake of it, but while it ultimately is a big "fuck you" to the whole AA-prophecy and removes a big part of Jon's story-arc, having Arya kill the Nightking is, to all intents and purposes, fully possible. She's a trained assassin, evidently is good at sneaking, had the right tool for the job, and there was plenty of hints in advance that she might end up being the one to do the deed. Now I didn't necessarily like it, but I was willing to believe it when I saw it. At least they didn't have Hotpie waltzing out of the Godswood and stab the NK, that would've been impossible for me to buy.

- The ditch around Winterfell disappearing between episodes 3 and 4 this season.
Yeah this is just a lazy continuity error, but ultimately, this is something that I can easily ignore due to suspension of disbelief. It's not a major part of the story, just something that came across as dumb.

Now, this is where it get's troublesome. 
What happens if the show tells or show you something that you simply can't believe. A plothole so big, or a character behaving so out of character, that no matter how hard to you try to justify what the show just told you, no matter how hard you try to convince yourself of what happened made any sort of sense, by grabbing at every maybe, what if, possibility, or spark of logic but still coming up short handed, and when not even suspension of disbelief is enough to convince you of what you just saw?
Then there is only one excuse for what's happening left: because the script said so / because the plot demanded it.
When this is the only thing that's left to convince you of what's happening, then it's time to tap out. It's game over. 

Which brings me to Season 8, Episode 4: "The Last of the Starks"...
Several times this episode, I found myself thinking "wait...what?", after seeing either a glaringly large plothole and/or a character acting so out of character that the character essentially get's ruined, and ultimately, these times, for the first time ever, I couldn't justify and convince myself of what the show tried to tell me. I just couldn't.

Case and point:
- Bronn's appearance and scene with Tyrion and Jamie.
OK, what was that? We've heard Bronn continuously smacktalk Cersei during the last season. At the very last episode last season, we see Bronn having a moment with Jamie while preparing the defenses of KL against Daenerys army, and later he has a tender moment with Tyrion. Cut to this episode (which quite frankly, isn't supposed to occur that long after S7E7, like what, a month?), and all of a sudden he's punching Tyrion in the face and making death threats to the Lannister-brothers. Let's just ignore the fact that the brothers have no reason to not send someone to hunt him down at this point. Bronn's always been a self-centered sellsword who's in it for the money, but ultimately very likable and he's clearly had an interest in the Lannister-brothers which wasn't merely centered around gold. Suddenly he's a dislikable twat. I remember feeling nervous about the prospect of Drogon burning him to cinders last season, but after this scene I couldn't care less about his ultimate fate. Way to ruin a character in a single, short scene. The only reason for this scene seems to be to set up Bronn as some sort of hero, or to simply make us care less about his upcoming demise, and that means this scene simply serves as a plot-device, because it sure doesn't make sense. 

- Euron ambushing Daenerys and the magic ballistas.
I'm not gonna delve too much on this scene, but this is probably the biggest plothole in the entire series.
OK, so I can buy that Euron for some reason expected Daenerys and her fleet to sail to Dragonstone, and has been waiting to ambush her for a couple of days now. It's what he'd do, I can buy that.
What I can't buy however, is that how Daenerys and her dragons, on a clear day, didn't see Euron's fleet. And I don't buy the writers excuse about her "having forgot about" the fleet for a single second, because that would mean that everyone else in her team, had also forgotten about it. This is writing at it's worst, this is them defending their own bad writing, and instead turning it into a plothole.
I also will never be able to believe the idea of those ballistas being nearly as accurate and powerful as modern guns. 
They are mounted on boats who are rocking in the water, shooting at an airborne target several hundred meters away, and they...instantly hit 3 out of 3 shots, and reload in a couple of seconds. 
Rhaegal's death was a plotdevice, pure and simple, meant to cause shock in the audience and further anger in Daenerys. The entire scene is utterly unbelievable from a narrative standpoint, and it only ever occurred because the plot demanded it.
And Qyburn has singlehandedly redefined warfare on both ground- and sea-level in Westeros for all time to come.
Someone give this man a medal and put him on the throne already, he's smarter than Tyrion, Davos, Varys and Cersei combined. 

- Jamie's redemption arc blown to pieces because of...reasons.
I don't care if Jamie is ultimately going back to King's Landing so that he can kill Cersei, that's not the point.
The point is that the redemption arc he's been on for several years is all but destroyed the moment he admits to himself (and Brienne) that he is hateful. His entire arc the last couple of seasons has been centered about him trying to become a better, more honorable man, and doing the right thing for the betterment of the realm. Suddenly, all that, everything he has suffered and fought for, is blown out the window the instant he hears that Cersei is in danger? Jamie going back "a hateful man" to Cersei at this point makes no god damn sense and ruins his entire redemption arc. It's a cheap way for the writers to have him head back to KL for no apparent reason, which means it fits in the "he goes back because the script said so/we didn't know what else to do "-category.

- Daenerys becoming Viserys in a single scene.
Oh Khaleesi, not like this...
I'm gonna admit that Daenerys is one of my favorites, but that I would've had no issues with her slowly turning into Viserys and then ultimately the "mad queen" and ending as a tragic hero (or villain) - if there had been any real buildup towards this and if the writing had been good. 
Sadly it isn't, and there isn't really any buildup to all of this. Daenerys has always had a vibe of "will she wont she" around her, but ultimately she's been shown to do more good than bad, with her intentions always being good, but not always logical.
On occasion ruthless and callous, but never evil or insane. 
Season 7 in particular, painted her in a good light, where her arc basically revolved around putting her obsession with the IT on hold, in order to go and do the right thing and fight the war that "actually" matters, alongside her lover/nephew. By the end of S7, it seemed that the mad part of her had finally succumbed to the compassionate part. Yay?
Not so much, S8 rolls up and suddenly she's all "but muh throne" again, despite it having only been mere weeks since season 7 ended.
Why? Because.
Then having her suddenly ditch the one common thread she's had in 7 seasons (protector of the downtrodden/mhysa), and basically do a turn that is so sharp it's immersion breaking, where she decides to throw all of her morals and values out the window during the course of a single episode comes across as contrived, forced, and illogical. 
I'm genuinely not buying it, everything about Daenerys arc this episode screams "the script caused it to happen/made her do it, because we need her to become a villain before the end."
The mere notion that she, the mother of dragons, the savior of winterfell, the last Targaryen (and a great beauty to boot), would somehow become isolated and lonely during the great victory feast is silly beyond words.
Is no one in WF interested in her at all? Of course not, because the script says so...

This episode is the first one ever, where the show tried to sell me something that I ultimately couldn't buy.
And it did it several times in one single episode! That's why I, and presumably so many others, gave this episode a rating of 1, and why it's currently by far, the most disliked episode of GoT ever. 


Rant over, thanks for reading. :commie:

Edited by MinscS2

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1 hour ago, darmody said:

That was interrupted from season 5 to the end of season Seven, when he decisively split from Cersei to fight the dead. Now I hope he is going to kill Cersei instead of falling back into that hole of selfishness. 

I am 100% sure that Jaime is going back to King's Landing to kill Cersei.  Isn't there a prophecy from a witch that Cersei will be killed by her brother (which she always incorrectly assumes to be Tyrion)?  D&D are just making it seem like Jaime is going back to reunite with Cersei because they want the moment to be "shocking" when Jaime kills her.

Dragon Seed, I share your frustration with GRRM, but I wouldn't go that far.  I certainly hope that we get the final two books as I do not believe they will be anything like what we are currently seeing on the show.  Apparently George recently said that "the writing is going well" for the Winds of Winter, so that is encouraging.  I think we will definitely get the Winds of Winter, although I am not so sure about a Dream of Spring.  At this point though I am mainly just interested in how the Stannis story wraps up, which should be dealt with in the Winds of Winter.  That is good enough for me.

Believe it or not, George isn't the only author having difficulty writing.  There is another fantasy series from Patrick Rothfuss called the Kingkiller Chronicles, where it has also been 8 years since the last book has been released.  In the mean time I am just trying to read other fantasy series.  I noticed that Elio and Linda have some Robin Hobbs books on their bookshelf in their videos, so I decided to look into books by that author.  I recently started reading the series with "The Assassin's Apprentice" and "The Royal Assassin", which are both great books.  

Anyhow, I haven't had a chance to rant and rave without repercussion, so I will end this post by saying "the show really, really sucks".

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45 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Rant incoming in 3....2.....1....

[several excellent observations]

The mere notion that [Daenerys], the mother of dragons, the savior of winterfell, the last Targaryen (and a great beauty to boot), would somehow become isolated and lonely during the great victory feast is silly beyond words.

Is no one in WF interested in her at all? Of course not, because the script says so...

This episode is the first one ever, where the show tried to sell me something that I ultimately couldn't buy.
And it did it several times in one single episode! That's why I, and presumably so many others, gave this episode a rating of 1, and why it's currently by far, the most disliked episode of GoT ever. 


Rant over, thanks for reading. :commie:

I can buy Northerners as xenophobic, parochial assholes, but a total lack of curiosity? About a young, charismatic, attractive woman arriving in their midst with creatures out of myth and legend? The fact that her forebears committed vile acts against House Stark should, if anything, be an incentive to scope her out from top to bottom, see what she's made of, convince themselves that she is, after all, Only Human, and a slip of a lass at that. No red-blooded Northman ought to back off from such a challenge for fear a Northwoman might give him the stink-eye. It's not fitting.

Buuuuutt... two episodes remain, and the wave function is collapsing (which: I'm not entirely certain what that entails, but it seems like a good metaphor). Minor characters and every shred of magic are being flung aside for a low-stakes final battle and a hollow victory.

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4 minutes ago, Gendelsdottir said:

I can buy Northerners as xenophobic, parochial assholes, but a total lack of curiosity? About a young, charismatic, attractive woman arriving in their midst with creatures out of myth and legend? The fact that her forebears committed vile acts against House Stark should, if anything, be an incentive to scope her out from top to bottom, see what she's made of, convince themselves that she is, after all, Only Human, and a slip of a lass at that. No red-blooded Northman ought to back off from such a challenge for fear a Northwoman might give him the stink-eye. It's not fitting.

Buuuuutt... two episodes remain, and the wave function is collapsing (which: I'm not entirely certain what that entails, but it seems like a good metaphor). Minor characters and every shred of magic are being flung aside for a low-stakes final battle and a hollow victory.

I think the logical reasons for the North to not trust/disregard Dany are simple; They rebelled against her family and "ended" the Targ dynasty already. Why now give the throne back to them via her? Also, the North has spent the majority of its history as a separate kingdom and just got back to that way of thinking after a 300 year hiatus. They've always had it in them to distrust rulers not of the North and be rebellious, so this situation seems to be keeping with the nature of things with regard to the Northern mindset.

That being said, the show did a hasty job of portraying this. It always made sense, but without the benefit of more time to develop that plot line I can see how it would come off as unnatural. Alas, there is no time these days...

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17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I just read EWwwww’s review of the last episode. I’ve been sort of avoiding it, because I was pretty sure it was going to be endless praise as usual from Hibberd. And yes, it is. His review is as spineless as the Ds writing/plots. Either that, or I want me some of whatever it is he was on when watching/writing the review. :rolleyes:

Honestly, it can't be JUST all the previous access that Hibberd was given for these continual ass kissing reviews.  It;s either the cold hard cash or he's bogarting the good stuff.  One or the other. 

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I'm contemplating a rewatch, having only watched the horrendous episode once.  It's almost like I have an appointment for a root canal and just don't feel like it today, ya know?  I could cancel til I'm in the mood, right?  Just don't wait TOO LONG, as it is a necessity.  But, the show is not, and it's official, I'm now certain a rewatch of this show can be worse than a root canal, and certainly.........nowhere near as beneficiary. 

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3 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I'm contemplating a rewatch, having only watched the horrendous episode once.  It's almost like I have an appointment for a root canal and just don't feel like it today, ya know?  I could cancel til I'm in the mood, right?  Just don't wait TOO LONG, as it is a necessity.  But, the show is not, and it's official, I'm now certain a rewatch of this show can be worse than a root canal, and certainly.........nowhere near as beneficiary. 

I know how you feel.
Rewatching a new episode of GoT once, maybe twice or even three times (and rewatching favorite scenes from said episode several times) before the next one airs is something I've done and enjoyed ever since I began watching this show.

I have yet to rewatch episode 4 and ...I just can't bear myself to do it.
It would feel like some sort of self-flagellation...

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12 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I'm contemplating a rewatch, having only watched the horrendous episode once.  It's almost like I have an appointment for a root canal and just don't feel like it today, ya know?  I could cancel til I'm in the mood, right?  Just don't wait TOO LONG, as it is a necessity.  But, the show is not, and it's official, I'm now certain a rewatch of this show can be worse than a root canal, and certainly.........nowhere near as beneficiary. 

When I was 4, i only had a few adult teeth.  I did have a bunch of loose baby teeth, though.  And I fell on my face onto the wood floor, as a 4 year old boy is wont to do, and thought my loose fang (bicuspid) popped out....it was the bottom corner (about 20% total) of my front (central incisor) which was one of my only, and biggest adult teeth.  

I immediately needed a root canal.  Since it had been a few hours and I wasn't complaining of pain (and maybe for other dentist reasons) they chose not to give me anything for the pain...

Right before I graduated college the inside of that same tooth, obv sans root, became infected and I had another root canal which basically re-filled the area where the root/nerve once was.  

So I've had 2 root canals, 1 with zero novacaine, and neither was actually as bad as last week's episode.

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14 hours ago, darmody said:

This isn't right, exactly. Jaime and Cersei's relationship is sick and contrary to the laws of gods and man, but it was his choice, I think. We're not to believe Cersei manipulated him into it. He also made a choice to join the Kingsguard, against the objections of his father. Aerys didn't have to take him, of course, and Jaime was used by those two powerful men to antagonize eachother. But it was Jaime's choice.

Becoming Kingslayer was a pivotal moment, when he chose the people of King's Landing and his father over his duty. It marked him for life. He was either too proud to justify himself or he didn't feel he could explain. But ever since it's been a source of frustration. He wanted to be a great knight and fill that book of deeds, but his great deed was a crime. His father told him not to care about public opinion, but that's what good people do.

Tywin was right when he said Jaime wants people to think he doesn't care. That was his persona. Kingslayer, great swordsman, glorified bodyguard, handsome son of the richest man in Westeros, yes. But above all Mr. Cool. Mr. Cage-rattler. The way he antagonized Ned immediately at the feast in the first episode. Ugh. That was because Jaime was too much his own man. Except around Robert back then, he's willful. Challenging people constantly. Getting his way. It's certainly not Tywin's idea for him to attack Ned at the brothel.

When Cersei worries about Bran recovering consciousness, Jaime is the one who gives that speech about killing everybody until they're the only two left in the world. Which Cersei later echoes, only she really means it and proves so by blowing up the Sept. Jaime's gradual redemption arc has centered around getting away from this selfish mindset. Meeting people who aren't Cersei, championing the causes of those weaker than he, not being a douche all the time. 

That was interrupted from season 5 to the end of season Seven, when he decisively split from Cersei to fight the dead. Now I hope he is going to kill Cersei instead of falling back into that hole of selfishness. 

I don't disagree with any of this. Jamie made a lot of bad, even evil, decisions. I remember thinking that this Jamie character is irredeemable (before he even started any sort of redemption arc). But I do think that he was set on a path by others, he's not a sociopath that doesn't feel.

I'm not trying to excuse Jamie's actions or say he had zero agency. I'm just trying to explain him, and explain why he has the personal capacity to be a good person.

In fact, I even felt sympathy for Cersei when we got her POV even though it seemed like everyone just found her even more psycho. She certainly got jerked around by Tywin, to put it mildly. I think that although the twins seem to have everything one would want (status, power, talent, beauty) we are supposed to see that it was always going to be difficult for them to develop into virtuous people based on how they were raised and used.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Dragon Seed said:

 

Everyone is bashing the D's and rightly so. But lets not omit the worst butcher of them all... George RR Martin! It was you George who went for the big pay day and allowed these two fuck wads to totally destroy you books. It was you who didn't have a clause in the contract to nix their buffoonery writing.

I have to agree on that, he should have negotiated some kind of terms to filter their material. These kind of things are negotiable in contracts but I guess he went as you said for the big money. 

I can't really blame him, he made a choice but this totally ruined his story. It doesn't feel even his story anymore. Producers, writers, even fans have stepped all over it. All theories are basically explored. How to even write? Doesn't all of these block the story he had wanted to say? 

Nevermind, personally I am not interested even in the books anymore. If these are the major point plots the end is so depressing that I can't waist my time reading his long books just to see him taking another road.

I am sure he is going to lose many fans this way. 

Edited by Nightwish

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

I have to agree on that, he should have negotiated some kind of terms to filter their material, not allowing them to land aliens on Kings Landings. These kind of things in contracts are negotiable but I guess he went as you said for the big money. 

I can't really blame him, he made a choice but this totally ruined his story. It doesn't feel even his story anymore. Producers, writers, even fans have stepped all over it. All theories are basically explored. How to even write? Doesn't all of these block the story he had wanted to say? 

Nevermind, personally I am not interested even in the books anymore. If these are the major point plots the end is so depressing that I can't waist my time reading his long books just to see him taking another road.

I am sure he is going to lose many fans this way. 

He simply shouldn't have allowed it to be adapted yet. Maybe a year after Winds of Winter came out and he knew Dream of Spring wouldn't  be long.

Edited by Ghostlydragon

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1 minute ago, Ghostlydragon said:

He simply shouldn't have allowed it to be adapted yet. Maybe a year after Winds of Winter came out and he knew Dream of Spring wouldn't  be long.

Now the damage is done.  He ruined his own chance as an author to tell the story he had wanted to say as clear as possible without external influences. 

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4 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

I have to agree on that, he should have negotiated some kind of terms to filter their material. These kind of things are negotiable in contracts but I guess he went as you said for the big money. 

I can't really blame him, he made a choice but this totally ruined his story. It doesn't feel even his story anymore. Producers, writers, even fans have stepped all over it. All theories are basically explored. How to even write? Doesn't all of these block the story he had wanted to say? 

Nevermind, personally I am not interested even in the books anymore. If these are the major point plots the end is so depressing that I can't waist my time reading his long books just to see him taking another road.

I am sure he is going to lose many fans this way. 

I agree that this whole saga has change the nature of the books dramatically. But I certainly don't blame GRRM. I think he honestly thought he'd finish the series before the show ended. Even so, my desire to read the finished story is as strong as ever. I'm looking forward to reading a more layered and nuanced version of events as a palate cleanser from the sloppiness of the show. If he ever actually finishes them that is...

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6 minutes ago, Joey Crows said:

I think he honestly thought he'd finish the series before the show ended.

This might be the only explanation. I keep blaming D&Der for their bad writing  although I know they’re nowhere near as talented writers as Martin and therefore unable to make up for the missing text so I knew he’s the one to blame but I couldn’t understand what was he thinking when he agreed to this knowing that, once started, the HBO panzer wouldn’t brake for anyone. 

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Just now, hewman said:

This might be the only explanation. I keep blaming D&Der for their bad writing  although I know they’re nowhere near as talented writers as Martin and therefore unable to make up for the missing text so I knew he’s the one to blame but I couldn’t understand what was he thinking when he agreed to this knowing that, once started, the HBO panzer wouldn’t brake for anyone. 

The showrunners are hacks and are rightly criticized for their atrocious plot holes and awful dialogue.  GRRM had been years off in his predictions for almost a decade when they inked the deal, so while he surely had fooled himself he would stay ahead of the show, that doesn't excuse him from not writing in more oversight for himself into the contract or for what I assume is a failure on his part to give the showrunners enough details that they could cobble together even a half way believable ending.  It's unfortunate all the way around.

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24 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

The showrunners are hacks and are rightly criticized for their atrocious plot holes and awful dialogue.  GRRM had been years off in his predictions for almost a decade when they inked the deal, so while he surely had fooled himself he would stay ahead of the show, that doesn't excuse him from not writing in more oversight for himself into the contract or for what I assume is a failure on his part to give the showrunners enough details that they could cobble together even a half way believable ending.  It's unfortunate all the way around.

I think grrm never thought he wouldn t have finished winds before the show caught up.

And if you remembre the interviews of the first years of the show Grrm liked D&D and their work. I think he was convinced that their vision for the series was similar to his. That they would do a good work.

He never expected that they would be so bad at writing original material or the political views that got introduced in the show like all the feminism for exemple… 

I mean, have you seen the topics about the racism of killing all the dothriaki, having the only black woman in the show in chains and killed or how danny going mad is related to women not being good enough to rule westeros for some reason? D&D also let themselves be too much influenced by these kind of things...

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