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Tyrion1991

Is Young Griffs invasion filler?

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Young Griff is an agent of chaos. In this nicely ordered story where we are basically down to Stannis vs. the King's Landing contingent with Euron providing problems far to the Southwest, Westeros had calmed down significantly from the early days of the War of the Five Kings - so enter Young Griff and the Golden Company to throw things into further chaos.

I think with Dany still far from the main narrative, I see where you are coming from with saying he may be filler. While she figures things out, he provides a way for Dorne to enter the conflict and for the Stormlands to play a more significant role. He gives the Lannister/Tyrell alliance a second front to deal with. However, if you want to call him filler, you could as well call Robb and Renly filler. Littlefinger and whatever he does with the strength of the Vale might be filler. Fact is, this story is all filler while we wait on Dany and her dragons. It's damn fascinating filler though.

I don't think it's filler at all though. GRRM has always moved this story away from having a good vs. evil feel. Dany is too set up as a righteous heir to the Targaryen dynasty. As you say, Young Griff's claim definitely complicates things for Dany. If he's sitting in Storm's End and can bring Dorne's spears into his alliance, he's as powerful a player as we've got now in Westeros. When Dany finally makes her arrival, she's got a rival with a stronger Targaryen claim to the iron throne.

Whether he's sitting on it or not, it puts Dany in the conundrum of either supporting Aegon VI or acting herself as an invader and conqueror. She'll have to re-think how she sees herself, unless she can find someway to prove that he's not who he says he is which is certainly within the realm of possibility. However, as we've seen with Stannis's legitimate claims against Cersei's children, things don't always go your way just because truth is on your side. Whether Young Griff is really Rhaegar's Aegon or not, he has a few key people who are going to push this story on his behalf and he has the might of the Golden Company to prove his claim one way or another.

 

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Regardless of whether he's actually Aegon Targaryen or not, Young Griff would make a better ruler than Daenerys and anyone in Westeros who currently has a claim to the IT.

He has been raised to be King, and unless we are being heavily misled by GRRM in Varys' intentions, I do believe he would make a very good King.

And that's precisely why I could see his invasion being sort of "filler". GRRM isn't just gonna let this golden boy, perfect candidate to the IT just conquer Westeros and finally give the 7 Kingdoms a competent ruler, no I think he'll either die or lose everything, one way or another.

 

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1 hour ago, PirateVergo said:

Regardless of whether he's actually Aegon Targaryen or not, Young Griff would make a better ruler than Daenerys and anyone in Westeros who currently has a claim to the IT.

He has been raised to be King, and unless we are being heavily misled by GRRM in Varys' intentions, I do believe he would make a very good King.

And that's precisely why I could see his invasion being sort of "filler". GRRM isn't just gonna let this golden boy, perfect candidate to the IT just conquer Westeros and finally give the 7 Kingdoms a competent ruler, no I think he'll either die or lose everything, one way or another.

I think precisely because he has been basically bred and raised to be the perfect prince and ruler something has to go very wrong there. He could, of course, suddenly die, but that's not very likely not to mention a stupid way to kill someone like him. But being trained to rule and actually rule - and then under pressure and being beset from a couple of sides - are two different things entirely.

The Targaryen king Aegon has the strongest parallels to is the Young Dragon. George had Daeron I give essentially the same speech as Aegon did in ADwD - I am the only dragon you need. That does not bode well in the end. Daeron I had tremendous success at first but ultimately failed spectacularly, doing his Realm and people more harm than good. Aegon will do the same thing.

If you read ADwD we are very far away from the inner mind and feelings of 'the lad'. We get his looks and get some dialogue, the cyvasse game with Tyrion, his episode with the Golden Company, and then later some stuff with Connington at Griffin's Roost. We never get an good measure of his character as such. What does he want? What is he about?

And I think that's intentional. I think there are aspects of him we have yet to see, things that could really give the whole thing a new spin.

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9 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

 

If Varys has the ability to make either of these outcomes happen, why would he want more violence? He loves to talk about how he's a friend of the little people. If Aegon wants to show he is different and offering something worthwhile to the people lords of Westeros, using the same old playbook probably isn't the way to go. I agree that more supporters would be drawn to the fact he's not a Lannister than out of any loyalty to the Targaryans. 

As far as showing anyone anything, no-one will know Varys orchestrated or just helped along the Faith and Tyrell conflict, and Aegon will appear a peacemaker and friend of the Faith. As to Varys's conscience, Varys intended(s) to bring over a horde of dothraki to put his boy on the throne. He wants a just and competent ruler and he's prepared to accept the damage bill that comes with bringing it about as he considers that the lesser evil.

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No, Aegon is not filler. He is the antagonist to Daenerys in the saga's second main conflict. 

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Aegon is needed to make sense out of Varys and Illyrio's plotting: 

If he'd be missing the overall plot would have a gaping hole and those two chars (who we know are Aegon supporters) would stand around nonsensically doing basically nothing. I guess everybody has seen what I mean though I am not allowed to cite the example here.

So: no, he is not filler. Up until now he has been a necessary element of the story. As for the future books I hope he is there to make the end-game more complex and interesting.

Personally I came to appreciate Aegon's storyline (which at first had seemed like an unnecessary complication) more and more during rereads.

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19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei and Euron will hook up in the books eventually and they might become a really great threat late in the game, but they are never going to become an enemy at KL Dany has to deal with when she arrives. This will be Aegon.

On Aegon and his people Dany can likely eventually count during the war against the Others (assuming she doesn't crush them before that starts). There might be bad blood between them but they should be able to work together for the common good (i.e. defeating the Others). But Euron and Cersei will never see beyond their own petty needs. They could become a real issue sort of in the wake of the Others, building up their strength while everybody else focuses on the Others. 

I agree. I also think that Cersei and Euron will be married and join their forces together. It's going to be a bit frightening when they do. Cersei is the filthy rich cutthroat patron of mad scientists and assassins everywhere and Euron is a damn good pirate-king and a sorcerer in the making.

I think that the two of them are going to destroy Aegon while Dany, Jon, the Starks, Mel and maybe Theon are off saving the world from the Others. It shouldn't be hard. I can see King's Landing being ground zero for both a greyscale epidemic and a famine so there won't be many healthy people there to defend it. Aegon would send all his healthy men north with Dany and Jon.

In any case, I would hate to be Aegon. Or Arianne if she is still there.

It's going to be a horrifically bloody end. The Red Keep will earn its name.

Yeah there's no way Aegon is filler.

His purpose is clearly outlined in Clash. He's supposed to give the characters -- good or evil -- something to fight. It doesn't make him a villain but he is supposed to be an antagonist in a lot of people's stories. While we are going to get to know Aegon better, we won't truly understand Aegon and the purpose of his story until we find out exactly what is up with Varys. I don't know if it's going to happen in a Tyrion chapter, an Arya chapter, a Sansa chapter, a Arianne chapter or a Daenerys chapter (Arya is my first choice) but it's coming.

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No, I don't think so. I believe Aegon is important and he is not a filler, I have grand plans for Aegon. 

- Aegon can bring back Edric Storm to Westeros. Last time he was sent to Essos by Davos but now Stannis needs sell swords + Daenerys making Gendry a legitimate Baratheon and giving him Storm's End can happen in the books too. Aegon can easily give Edric Storm title of Lord. 

- Aegon can shed some light on Summerhall and why Rhaegar visited there. Aegon seem more interested in avenging his mother and sister and doesn't seem to understand why he is everything. It is possible for Jon Connington to know about Rhaegar's interest and Griff's to visit Summerhall. 

- Aegon can travel to Riverlands. According to Varys Aegon knows kingship is his duty, knows how to be hunted, to be afraid, Aegon ending the bloodshed at the Riverlands since the attacks of Gregor can gather him much needed support. 

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On 5/6/2019 at 2:49 PM, Lord Varys said:

The deciding factor will be the Tyrell army fighting against the Golden Company

I doubt that Tyrells will oppose fAegon. They will do the same thing, as during Robert's Rebellion - absolutely nothing. They may pretent, that they are keeping Storm's End and fAegon under siege, but then it will turn out, that they are fAegon's allies, and that Golden Company is already approaching King's Landing.

It seems that Varys and Illyrio has agreement with at least Redwynes, and thru them with Olenna Tyrell. My guess, is that they were planning for a long time, to offer fAegon marriage with Margaery Tyrell, and to marry Viserys to Arianne Martell, to gain for them support of the Reach and Dorne. Though later Viserys proved to be unreliable, so they orchestrated his death. And Littlefinger's intervention into Varys' original plan, him marrying Margaery first to Renly, and then to Joffrey and Tommen, made Margaery a more benefitial match than Arianne. Thru her marriage with Renly, Margaery is the Lady of Stormlands, and after Tommen's death, she will be dowager-Queen. So thru marriage with her, fAegon will gain additional leverage to his conquest of Stormlands and his claim over Iron Throne. To counter Varys' offer, Littlefinger will propose fAegon to marry with Sansa. So it's fairly possible, that fAegon will marry with both of them, or maybe even with three brides - Margaery, Sansa, and Arianne.

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10 hours ago, Amris said:

Aegon is needed to make sense out of Varys and Illyrio's plotting: 

If he'd be missing the overall plot would have a gaping hole and those two chars (who we know are Aegon supporters) would stand around nonsensically doing basically nothing. I guess everybody has seen what I mean though I am not allowed to cite the example here.

So: no, he is not filler. Up until now he has been a necessary element of the story. As for the future books I hope he is there to make the end-game more complex and interesting.

Personally I came to appreciate Aegon's storyline (which at first had seemed like an unnecessary complication) more and more during rereads.

Absolutely. The story was crying out for Aegon, and it was set up from the very beginning for us, and the charachers in-story, to wonder whether he is who he believes he is. 

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On 5/6/2019 at 5:14 AM, Lord Vance II said:

I 100% agree that Aegon will change his mind about paving the way for Dany and resist her. I think tales of her Targ Madness (which I think will fully manifest before long) will reach Westeros and he's going to look around and realize he rather likes being king.

Aegon's claim to the throne is that he's a Targaryen. Would he really be deterred by "tales of Targ Madness"? And wasn't the plan for him to marry Dany, making them king & queen?

On 5/6/2019 at 10:27 AM, LyaTarg said:

You reckon Jon's death was permanent? So what of his parentage? It'll be unanswered forever? 

Cat was killed and then revived by R'hlloric magic. She hasn't had a POV chapter since. Nor has anyone who died and then came back from the dead. The closest would be that Varamyr Sixskins loses his human body near the end of his chapter, winding up with his consciousness in the body of a wolf.

11 hours ago, Amris said:

Aegon is needed to make sense out of Varys and Illyrio's plotting: 

If he'd be missing the overall plot would have a gaping hole and those two chars (who we know are Aegon supporters) would stand around nonsensically doing basically nothing. I guess everybody has seen what I mean though I am not allowed to cite the example here.

Were people claiming there was a gaping plot hole with them prior to the publication of ADWD?

7 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

His purpose is clearly outlined in Clash. He's supposed to give the characters -- good or evil -- something to fight. It doesn't make him a villain but he is supposed to be an antagonist in a lot of people's stories. While we are going to get to know Aegon better, we won't truly understand Aegon and the purpose of his story until we find out exactly what is up with Varys. I don't know if it's going to happen in a Tyrion chapter, an Arya chapter, a Sansa chapter, a Arianne chapter or a Daenerys chapter (Arya is my first choice) but it's coming.

Why Arya? She's in Braavos, with no reason to go to Storm's End and nothing that would bring her to Varys either.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/7/2019 at 12:21 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Why Arya? She's in Braavos, with no reason to go to Storm's End and nothing that would bring her to Varys either.

GRRM has already told us that the answer to the enigma of Aegon and the mysteries of Varys won't come until A Dream of Spring.

By that time, Aegon will be in King's Landing and Arya will be back from Braavos. I would like to find out these truths in an Arya POV chapter because Arya was the first POV to catch wind of the fact that Varys is up to no good, willing to manipulate the Starks and the Lannisters into a bitter war so that the Targaryens to swoop in and steamroll them both. What she heard scared her and she tried to tell her father but she failed and he died.

Arya has not forgotten it. She would surely add their names to her list if she knew who they were. Interestingly enough, she perceived Varys to be a wizard.

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

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18 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Aegon's claim to the throne is that he's a Targaryen. Would he really be deterred by "tales of Targ Madness"? And wasn't the plan for him to marry Dany, making them king & queen?

Sure it was the plan. How many plans actually pan out in this story though?

If things go how we think it will, with Aegon taking Storms End and possibly gaining the support of Dorne and "friends in the Reach," he's going to figure out real fast that he doesn't need Dany. 

And if he's seated on the Iron Throne (or at least controls much of Westeros), hell yeah he would take heed of tales of the Dragon Queen. An increasingly Mad Targ bringing with her savage dragons, eunuch legions, Greyjoy pirates and Dothraki screamers - basically a who's who of terror for Westeros. Personally I think when (if) she starts headed West, shes going to go overland to the Narrow Sea (that long of an ocean voyage is too dangerous, the Iron Fleet showed us that). Plenty of opportunities for her to get some bad press. 

His claim is better, he (likely) will have ousted the Lannisters and become a hero to the smallfolk, and he has a dick. Why would he work his ass off just to split power with a stranger? She's also showed no desire to share a damned thing and likely will think him a fake like more than half the forum. 

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Count me in for those who think that Prince Aegon is a filler. Its most likely to explain why the Iron Throne hasn't consolidated, under whoever holds the Iron Throne, when Danaerys finally arrives. Now I am sure it can and will be an interesting filler and a great read, but at the end of it, it looks like a filler to me with Aegon being introduced into the story so late.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lion of the West said:

Count me in for those who think that Prince Aegon is a filler. Its most likely to explain why the Iron Throne hasn't consolidated, under whoever holds the Iron Throne, when Danaerys finally arrives. Now I am sure it can and will be an interesting filler and a great read, but at the end of it, it looks like a filler to me with Aegon being introduced into the story so late.

He's only been introduced in the middle of the story.

He has been talked about since the beginning of the story.

Aegon is basically Chekov's Gun in a character. The gun is in the background and barely noticeable in the first act. Towards the end of the second act as tensions flare, the gun gets more attention, likely from the characters who have already been established. And in the third and final act, the gun gets used...for better or for worse.

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

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Posted (edited)

I don't see F!Aegon getting beyond the Stormlands. We should be able to detect that he's a red herring. Characters who are referred to as "Young" are bound to die young. Young Dragon; died at the age of 18. Young Wolf; died at the age of 17. Young Falcon; we all know he will die very soon - most likely by the Mountain Clans. So the Young Griff will also die quickly.

Edited by The Snow Queen

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7 minutes ago, The Snow Queen said:

I don't see F!Aegon getting beyond the Stormlands. We should be able to detect that he's a red herring. Characters who are referred to as "Young" are bound to die young. Young Dragon; died at the age of 18. Young Wolf; died at the age of 17. Young Falcon; we all know he will die very soon - most likely by the Mountain Clans. So the Young Griff will also die quickly.

Dying quickly doesn't mean that he won't reach King's Landing and sit the Iron Throne.

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On 5/6/2019 at 12:06 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Aegon is not filler. I think he is the real deal to begin with. And I know people are set on this fight between him and Dany, but I don't see it. If he was so hellbent on dragons, he would not have been as easily swayed to go to Westeros.

GRRM has written Tyrion has being the person who has met Jon Snow, has met Aegon and now he is outside the walls of Meereen and the time will come when he meets Dany as well. He will be the only person alive (as far as we know) who will have met the two boys who are allegedly Rhaegar's sons and the girl who is his sister. 

That's something that seems to be wholly disregarded/dismissed for some reason, that the writer has placed Tyrion in a position where he will be able to start connecting all these dots. And he will have the right people around to be able to that.

I'm fairly certain Aegon dies, but I think he dies fighting during the Long Night.  

I think he had plans for Aegon very early on. Varys even hints at it in Tyrion's first clash chapter when he talks about the comet. 

"In the streets, they call it the Red Messenger," Varys said. "They say it comes as a herald before a king, to warn of fire and blood to follow." (Tyrion I, ACoK 3)

Aegon will get swept when the ice winds blow and the Whitewalkers arrive.  He will probably survive.  Jon on the show is Aegon in the real story.  He survives long enough to father blonde haired babies with Dany and a bastard with Arrianne.  

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17 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

He's only been introduced in the middle of the story.

He has been talked about since the beginning of the story.

Aegon is basically Chekov's Gun in a character. The gun is in the background and barely noticeable in the first act. Towards the end of the second act as tensions flare, the gun gets more attention, likely from the characters who have already been established. And in the third and final act, the gun gets used...for better or for worse.

It could naturally be thus. But to take the example you provided I feel that Aegon is more likely to be a gun; essentially a plot device to be used by one characters against another character in the final parts of the fight between characters who have been with us for longer in the story.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

It could naturally be thus. But to take the example you provided I feel that Aegon is more likely to be a gun; essentially a plot device to be used by one characters against another character in the final parts of the fight between characters who have been with us for longer in the story.

True. I don't see anything wrong with Aegon being the Chekov gun or the Chekov gunslinger. Either one fits.

But you might be right. If so, I think Aegon will be used (against his will) for evil.

I've never really liked Varys that much and I have only grown more suspicious of him. I think his "for the realm" shtick is pure garbage and that there's a lot more to Varys that meets the eye. On top of that, Cersei is likely going to survive The Winds of Winter (her children won't) and she is not going to let Aegon slide. Euron is also not going to suffer Aegon for long and it's only a matter of time before Littlefinger -- if he makes that long -- takes an interest in his downfall. Arianne is a good person but she seems to make decisions and act on bad/outdated/incomplete information so she would basically be akin to the kid who thinks that his parent's gun is a toys.

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

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