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Tyrion1991

Is Young Griffs invasion filler?

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I'd bet that Griff's invasion's purpose (narratively) is to spread Greyscale to King's Landing, after they conquer it.

So to hop on the Chekov's Gun parallel, imo Connington is the gun rather than Aegon. I don't even think we will find out if he was real or not.

Edited by MostlyMoody

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I love Young Griff’s arc and don’t consider it filler at all and when his identity was revealed I was beside myself with excitement. Rhaegar’s true born son actually alive and with an army to lay claim to the Iron Throne? That has potential for so much drama and intrigue. I was convinced he was going to die though by the end of ADWD, I think his last chapter ended with him saying he was going to lead the march on Storms End and really thought that was a precursor to him being iced off. 

I’ve not read any of the preview chapters for TWOW so no idea what happens but it’s one of the plot threads I’m most looking forward to.

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On 5/5/2019 at 5:24 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

Is Young Griffs invasion filler?

Sort of.

I think when GRRM wrote A Clash of Kings, he wanted to include some serious prophecy foretelling future events, but he also didn't want to do too much to spoil anything important, so the most obvious prophecies were centered around a "Bonny Prince Charlie" type of figure, his Mummer's Dragon. The lines of the prophecy that were really tough to interpret ("stone beast takes wing" and such) relate to the more important story, but because it's so vague we won't know it until we see it, so it spoils nothing. But fAegon's lines of the prophecy are fairly straightforward.

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The War of Five Kings wasn’t really filled though because it was a direct consequence of Roberts death in the first book. It was the story.

But, in the very first chapter of AFFC there is a noticeable shift in emphasis towards the Targaryens and specifically Danys return. Narratively it does make sense to do that and it is what GRRM is building up to. 

The story feels like it’s in anticipation of Dany arriving. Indeed many characters are basing their plans around this point by the end of ADWD. So the story is about something that isn’t going to happen for a long time. 

So in that sense I’d argue that Aegon coming with an army to invade Westeros is left field. Yes, he is connected to Danys storyline. But having a premature invasion feels like an excuse to have a war in the south rather than wait for Dany.

As an aside, I do feel that having another exiled Targaryen cross the narrow sea with a foreign army does spoil the moment when Dany crosses it. She’ll be following in another’s footsteps instead of a dramatic moment where she enters the main story. Sure, she’s going to have more stuff. But it won’t have the same impact as it might have.

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On 5/6/2019 at 12:10 AM, Centurion Piso said:

There it is.  We may never get another chapter from Jon's view.  

I think we will. I thought even before the show that the Red Woman would bring him back. She keeps saying that she searches her fires for azor ahai but all she sees is snow. I think he will come back.

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Dany's and Aegon's war is to be the second dance of dragons.

Now it would be ridiculous to think GRRM first thought up the original historic dance of dragons, and then later decided to make a second dance of dragons during his series. What a happy coincidence that would be. No, the original dance exists as backstory because he intended to make a contemporary dance.

And the historic dance is first mentioned near the start of AGOT, Bran II.

Quote

The twins Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk, who had died on one another's swords hundreds of years ago, when brother fought sister in the war the singers called the Dance of the Dragons.

GRRM would not have had Dany birth three dragons without knowing what he was going to do with them. In the dance Aegon is going to ride Rhaegal. Rhaegal exists for Aegon and is named after Rhaegar for Aegon's father because Aegon was always intended. At the time he wrote Illyrion giving Dany 3 eggs he would have known full well that one them was to become a dragon for Aegon to ride on during the dance.

Perhaps the most major theme of the series is that people need to put aside their petty differences and stop fighting each other and unite together to face the greater threat. To make that point Dany's dragons are going to die in battles for the throne before they can fight the Others. Aegon is key to this point, as Dany will kill him and his dragon Rhaegal fighting for the throne in the second dance.

Aegon makes sense of and brings to the fore Illyrio and Varys, two character that have been scheming in the background since AGOT.

The character arc Aegon plays to most is Dany's. It is a part of her apparent descent into madness. Aegon exists in contrast to Jon, Aegon is fake, Jon is real. Dany wars and kills fake Aegon, Westeros says she's a mad tyrant who wanted his throne, Dany says its because he was a fake. Enter real Jon, Dany must submit to him or prove all those who says she is mad for power correct. This arc is built upon Aerys's madness and the general Targs can be mad theme. Point being Aegon is intricately woven into one of the two biggest character arcs in the series and backstory that began the series.

The whole Blackfyre plot probably wasn't thought up at the time of AGOT, but the Blackfyre stuff is just a fleshing out of Aegon's plot (and ties into Tyrion). The barebones that was always intended (since at least early AGOT) is the emergence of pretender Aegon who Dany fights with, on dragon-back, for the Iron Throne.

The idea that GRRM pulled Aegon out of nowhere is based on a poor understanding of the works.

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10 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

The War of Five Kings wasn’t really filled though because it was a direct consequence of Roberts death in the first book.

The fallout of Robert's death is a direct consequence of Varys's plotting, though. He let the twincest continue for decade and half, he was there when LF lied to Cat about the dagger, he faned Ned's suspicions of the Lannisters. No person with the 2 neurons to rub together could have  thought that  a destructive civil war culminating in Viserys claiming the throne with the help of the Dothraki(!) would be better for the realm than Robert's reign or that of any of his possible successors. Yes, even Joffrey.  It becomes increasingly clear that Varys may have been in great part responsible for the fall of Targaryens in the first place, as he was the one who blocked Rhaegar's tentative attempt to do something at Harrenhal by alerting Aerys.

The only thing that ever made sense to me concerning this plot - from the time I first read AGoT, mind you, was that Varys and Illyrio had a more reasonable pretender than Viserys up their sleeve the whole time. Otherwise they would have done more over the years to try to form Viserys into a person who could win and hold the throne. 

 

10 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

As an aside, I do feel that having another exiled Targaryen cross the narrow sea with a foreign army does spoil the moment when Dany crosses it. She’ll be following in another’s footsteps instead of a dramatic moment where she enters the main story. Sure, she’s going to have more stuff. But it won’t have the same impact as it might have.

IMHO, this was always the intended result.

 

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The whole Blackfyre plot probably wasn't thought up at the time of AGOT, but the Blackfyre stuff is just a fleshing out of Aegon's plot (and ties into Tyrion). The barebones that was always intended (since at least early AGOT) is the emergence of pretender Aegon who Dany fights with, on dragon-back, for the Iron Throne.

The Blackfyre plot wasn't, but in AGoT GRRM took great care to detail Aegon the Unlikely's accession to the throne and how 2 other claimants, his older brothers' children were passed over for him. IMHO, it is pretty clear that the original idea was that the pretender supported by Varys and Illyrio would have been a descendant of one of them - of Aerion's infant son, most likely.

 

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I don’t think GRRM would have intentionally tried to undermine the moment Dany crosses. He’s built that moment up across the whole series. 

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16 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I don’t think GRRM would have intentionally tried to undermine the moment Dany crosses. He’s built that moment up across the whole series. 

Since to me it has always been clear that supporting Viserys/Dany could have never been the real plan for Varys and Illyrio, yes, he absolutely would. Conveniently, this would also take the wind of the revelation of Jon's parentage, if it happens, and make it very difficult for Dany and other people to believe in it's veracity.

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57 minutes ago, Maia said:

Since to me it has always been clear that supporting Viserys/Dany could have never been the real plan for Varys and Illyrio, yes, he absolutely would. Conveniently, this would also take the wind of the revelation of Jon's parentage, if it happens, and make it very difficult for Dany and other people to believe in it's veracity.

 

Iam not sure I follow. Here I was talking about how the moment of Dany crossing the Narrow Sea as a reader would be undermined by having another character perform the same feat. It’s not really about whether the plot points of the characters tie together; it’s a question of whether it lessens the emotional impact of a future scene.

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2 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Iam not sure I follow. Here I was talking about how the moment of Dany crossing the Narrow Sea as a reader would be undermined by having another character perform the same feat. It’s not really about whether the plot points of the characters tie together; it’s a question of whether it lessens the emotional impact of a future scene.

I wouldn't be so sure that she crosses the Narrow See. Quaithe told her to go east. 

Quote

To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east. To go forward you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.[5]

Sounds more like crossing the Sunset Sea. Everybody says it's impossible, so somebody obviously will. Wouldn't be so sure she'll conquer Westeros either.

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1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I don’t think GRRM would have intentionally tried to undermine the moment Dany crosses. He’s built that moment up across the whole series. 

What do you mean he wouldn't intentionally do it? Do you think he accidentally wrote Aegon?

The emotional impact of such a scene, if Aegon even dampens it, falls by the wayside when set against character arc and theme such as Aegon serves.

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35 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

What do you mean he wouldn't intentionally do it? Do you think he accidentally wrote Aegon?

The emotional impact of such a scene, if Aegon even dampens it, falls by the wayside when set against character arc and theme such as Aegon serves.

 

Yes it’s arguably as important as the wall coming down. 

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14 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

The War of Five Kings wasn’t really filled though because it was a direct consequence of Roberts death in the first book. It was the story.

But, in the very first chapter of AFFC there is a noticeable shift in emphasis towards the Targaryens and specifically Danys return. Narratively it does make sense to do that and it is what GRRM is building up to. 

The story feels like it’s in anticipation of Dany arriving. Indeed many characters are basing their plans around this point by the end of ADWD. So the story is about something that isn’t going to happen for a long time. 

So in that sense I’d argue that Aegon coming with an army to invade Westeros is left field. Yes, he is connected to Danys storyline. But having a premature invasion feels like an excuse to have a war in the south rather than wait for Dany.

As an aside, I do feel that having another exiled Targaryen cross the narrow sea with a foreign army does spoil the moment when Dany crosses it. She’ll be following in another’s footsteps instead of a dramatic moment where she enters the main story. Sure, she’s going to have more stuff. But it won’t have the same impact as it might have.

I don't believe Daenerys will cross with her armies.  Well perhaps some of the Unsullied.  Most of her troops will need to stay in Essos to keep the slavers from mischief.  She will not stay in Westeros for long.  Long enough to help clean up the wights and settle the issue of who will rule the snow-covered continent is all.  The introduction of Aegon (real or not) solves the problem of a Targaryen coming back to Westeros to reclaim the iron throne; which will have rusted by then.  I don't know for sure who Aegon is but he is carrying around a lie.  The lie will be slain, per the prophecy, but that can just mean the revelation of the truth.  Daenerys may be satisfied if Aegon can prove himself related to her family.  A Blackfyre is related to a Targaryen after all even if their blood is not as pure.  

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13 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Dany's and Aegon's war is to be the second dance of dragons.

Now it would be ridiculous to think GRRM first thought up the original historic dance of dragons, and then later decided to make a second dance of dragons during his series. What a happy coincidence that would be. No, the original dance exists as backstory because he intended to make a contemporary dance.

And the historic dance is first mentioned near the start of AGOT, Bran II.

GRRM would not have had Dany birth three dragons without knowing what he was going to do with them. In the dance Aegon is going to ride Rhaegal. Rhaegal exists for Aegon and is named after Rhaegar for Aegon's father because Aegon was always intended. At the time he wrote Illyrion giving Dany 3 eggs he would have known full well that one them was to become a dragon for Aegon to ride on during the dance.

Perhaps the most major theme of the series is that people need to put aside their petty differences and stop fighting each other and unite together to face the greater threat. To make that point Dany's dragons are going to die in battles for the throne before they can fight the Others. Aegon is key to this point, as Dany will kill him and his dragon Rhaegal fighting for the throne in the second dance.

Aegon makes sense of and brings to the fore Illyrio and Varys, two character that have been scheming in the background since AGOT.

The character arc Aegon plays to most is Dany's. It is a part of her apparent descent into madness. Aegon exists in contrast to Jon, Aegon is fake, Jon is real. Dany wars and kills fake Aegon, Westeros says she's a mad tyrant who wanted his throne, Dany says its because he was a fake. Enter real Jon, Dany must submit to him or prove all those who says she is mad for power correct. This arc is built upon Aerys's madness and the general Targs can be mad theme. Point being Aegon is intricately woven into one of the two biggest character arcs in the series and backstory that began the series.

The whole Blackfyre plot probably wasn't thought up at the time of AGOT, but the Blackfyre stuff is just a fleshing out of Aegon's plot (and ties into Tyrion). The barebones that was always intended (since at least early AGOT) is the emergence of pretender Aegon who Dany fights with, on dragon-back, for the Iron Throne.

The idea that GRRM pulled Aegon out of nowhere is based on a poor understanding of the works.

Absolutely. I suspect the George originally planned on a descendant of Aerion. 

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3 hours ago, Maia said:

The fallout of Robert's death is a direct consequence of Varys's plotting, though. He let the twincest continue for decade and half, he was there when LF lied to Cat about the dagger, he faned Ned's suspicions of the Lannisters. No person with the 2 neurons to rub together could have  thought that  a destructive civil war culminating in Viserys claiming the throne with the help of the Dothraki(!) would be better for the realm than Robert's reign or that of any of his possible successors. Yes, even Joffrey.  It becomes increasingly clear that Varys may have been in great part responsible for the fall of Targaryens in the first place, as he was the one who blocked Rhaegar's tentative attempt to do something at Harrenhal by alerting Aerys.

The only thing that ever made sense to me concerning this plot - from the time I first read AGoT, mind you, was that Varys and Illyrio had a more reasonable pretender than Viserys up their sleeve the whole time. Otherwise they would have done more over the years to try to form Viserys into a person who could win and hold the throne. 

 

IMHO, this was always the intended result.

 

The Blackfyre plot wasn't, but in AGoT GRRM took great care to detail Aegon the Unlikely's accession to the throne and how 2 other claimants, his older brothers' children were passed over for him. IMHO, it is pretty clear that the original idea was that the pretender supported by Varys and Illyrio would have been a descendant of one of them - of Aerion's infant son, most likely.

 

Yeap. 

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On 5/8/2019 at 6:23 AM, Lord Vance II said:

An increasingly Mad Targ bringing with her savage dragons, eunuch legions, Greyjoy pirates and Dothraki screamers - basically a who's who of terror for Westeros.

If Aegon has been raised to believe the Targaryens are rightful rulers, is he really going to regard dragons as a "savage" menace, or important symbols of the legitimate ruling family? There's a common belief that the "second dance of the dragons" is going to be between him & Dany, and while I don't see an obvious way of him obtaining a dragon for himself, I think he would definitely regard that as his optimal outcome.

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On 5/10/2019 at 2:49 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

[snip]

So in that sense I’d argue that Aegon coming with an army to invade Westeros is left field. Yes, he is connected to Danys storyline. But having a premature invasion feels like an excuse to have a war in the south rather than wait for Dany.

[snip]

Thank you for this post! Now you have been making me think:

- Who's advice was it that started Young Griff's premature invasion and the war in the south? Tyrion's.

- Who benefits from splitting the pro-Targaryen forces into two camps and thus allows for potential defeat in detail? Cersei.

Suddenly it jumps out at me that this is a parallel to a certain thing happening in something that must not be named here.

I don't think Tyrion and Cersei are knowingly cooperating in the books. It is clear that Tyrion really hates her. Also there is no opportunity for him to communicate with her. But he does help her by splitting the Targaryen camp in two. Interesting, interesting.

 

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On 5/9/2019 at 6:13 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

I've never really liked Varys that much and I have only grown more suspicious of him. I think his "for the realm" shtick is pure garbage and that there's a lot more to Varys that meets the eye. 

Did anybody believe his "for the realm besides the show? Varys is one of the most selfish and mysterious characters

 

On 5/9/2019 at 6:13 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

it's only a matter of time before Littlefinger -- if he makes that long -- takes an interest in his downfall.

Littlefinger meets Aegon. This is going to be interesting. Littlefinger will not be against him in the beginning: Aegon has a to high chance of winning and LF tries to keep himself all options. But Varys will definatly play Aegon against him.

 

20 hours ago, Maia said:

The only thing that ever made sense to me concerning this plot - from the time I first read AGoT, mind you, was that Varys and Illyrio had a more reasonable pretender than Viserys up their sleeve the whole time. Otherwise they would have done more over the years to try to form Viserys into a person who could win and hold the throne. 

I'm supporting this theory about Varys &  Illyrio pushing Viserys:

Viserys conquers Westeros and becomes Viserys III. He will be as mad and cruel as his father. Suddenly the young, beutiful and likeable son of the beloved Rhaegar appears.

If you are a peasant who would you fight for: A mad usurper and his forgein wildlings or the rightful heir and a army with Westerosi roots?

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