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Discussing Sansa XXXVII: The Hound and The Little Bird

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So, we FINALLY got the reunion between Sansa and Hound. And then Sansa made the ultimate move in this season's Game starting the chain of events that will be difficult to stop.

The Great War is over... Now, let's go back to killing each other. That's why we are all here :D

 

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I respect TV-Sansa much less now; she gave her word to Jon to keep his secret; and broke it.  That's not a Stark thing to do; it's a sly, Cersei-like maneuver; and not unlike the 11-year-old Sansa in the book.  I thought she'd learned better.  

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FINALLY they meet again. Only took four episodes of them being in the same place.

 

Re: Sansa's decision to tell. I think, if you're going by the whole playing the game part of everything, it was a good move. It furthered her goals and whether or not you agree with her goals, if we're judging it on whether or not it worked, it did. It was a calculated risk.

 

But it wasn't the honorable thing to do. But I think Sansa is past doing honorable things for honor's sake. She's Team The North and Team Jon Snow and in general I think she's willing to do what she thinks needs to be done in order for those things to happen. Even if they're dirty and not honorable.

 

 

One thing I didn't like was how Sansa and Sandor's conversation about what she'd been through could've been boiled down by "Abuse and rape made me strong."

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2 minutes ago, Pandean said:

One thing I didn't like was how Sansa and Sandor's conversation about what she'd been through could've been boiled down by "Abuse and rape made me strong."

Don't get me started. I almost smashed in my screen when that happened. I can't believe D&D couldn't resist one last time to pat themselves on the back for the clusterfuck that was the S5 storyline. That Sansa, or any woman really, needs to be raped and brutalized to become 'strong'...I just can't.

4 minutes ago, Pandean said:

But it wasn't the honorable thing to do. But I think Sansa is past doing honorable things for honor's sake. She's Team The North and Team Jon Snow and in general I think she's willing to do what she thinks needs to be done in order for those things to happen. Even if they're dirty and not honorable.

Screw honor. It's gotten no one in the Stark family anywhere. The honorable Stark men all died, including Jon. Only reason he is alive is Melisandre and since then a nuclear-resistant plot armor that made him survive all the other 'honorable' things he did. Sadly thousands don't have that plot armor and died for his 'honor'.

Sure Sansa is scheming but since that is usually intersecting with reminders of how she cares for her people, I'm not convinced we are supposed to see her schemes as a bad thing. But only time will tell I guess. With this show, you never know.

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i knows her brother would be better then dany and shes not going to let her family go under again. 

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4 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Don't get me started. I almost smashed in my screen when that happened. I can't believe D&D couldn't resist one last time to pat themselves on the back for the clusterfuck that was the S5 storyline. That Sansa, or any woman really, needs to be raped and brutalized to become 'strong'...I just can't.

Screw honor. It's gotten no one in the Stark family anywhere. The honorable Stark men all died, including Jon. Only reason he is alive is Melisandre and since then a nuclear-resistant plot armor that made him survive all the other 'honorable' things he did. Sadly thousands don't have that plot armor and died for his 'honor'.

Sure Sansa is scheming but since that is usually intersecting with reminders of how she cares for her people, I'm not convinced we are supposed to see her schemes as a bad thing. But only time will tell I guess. With this show, you never know.

I agree on all three points. 

Damn, okay I can get that Littlefinger and Cersei are part of the reason she plays the game and can do so well now but there was no fucking reason to mention Ramsay. I can see her crediting them even if they were horrible. But fucking Ramsay? Apparently being raped and abused in a tower is the new 'this is why i'm strong' now. Ugh.

 

I definitely agree. screw honor.

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18 minutes ago, Pandean said:

One thing I didn't like was how Sansa and Sandor's conversation about what she'd been through could've been boiled down by "Abuse and rape made me strong."

Amen. 

I was hoping Sansa would thank him for the gesture anyway, but nope. She's a hard bitch now. People don't need to love her.

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I used to like Sansa, after this episode I'm not so sure.  She really does seem like she has just become petty and cold.  Tyrion had the right of it when he called her out on just being determined to not like Dany.  Now she is an oathbreaker who doesn't respect the wishes of her own family because it furthers her political pursuits.

I might just need time to calm down, that episode made me pretty much against everyone whose name was not Dany.

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26 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

I respect TV-Sansa much less now; she gave her word to Jon to keep his secret; and broke it.  That's not a Stark thing to do; it's a sly, Cersei-like maneuver; and not unlike the 11-year-old Sansa in the book.  I thought she'd learned better.  

Got a bit of a Littlefinger vibe in that move.

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3 minutes ago, Bran the Shipper said:

I used to like Sansa, after this episode I'm not so sure.  She really does seem like she has just become petty and cold.  Tyrion had the right of it when he called her out on just being determined to not like Dany.  Now she is an oathbreaker who doesn't respect the wishes of her own family because it furthers her political pursuits.

I might just need time to calm down, that episode made me pretty much against everyone whose name was not Dany.

Or maybe it's that Sansa was right. 'Men do stupid things for women.' Sansa said the men needed rest instead of going off to fight another war right then. And she was right IMO. Jon immediately sided with Dany against Sansa. Jon has no freaking spine when it comes to Dany. She burns people alive and it's fine with him because 'we need allies, she is my queen'. Dany threatens Sansa to his face and he doesn't even blink. Now the few people from the North that are left should get time to rest a bit because they freaking deserve it. But the company (Tyrion/Dany/Jon) that brought the wall down all agrees they get no time out and best follow their Queen down south so more of them can die.

Jon, the guy who supposedly did all the things he did for the North, seems to care very little for it because he's completely Dany whipped.

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5 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Or maybe it's that Sansa was right. 'Men do stupid things for women.' Sansa said the men needed rest instead of going off to fight another war right then. And she was right IMO. Jon immediately sided with Dany against Sansa. Jon has no freaking spine when it comes to Dany. She burns people alive and it's fine with him because 'we need allies, she is my queen'. Dany threatens Sansa to his face and he doesn't even blink. Now the few people from the North that are left should get time to rest a bit because they freaking deserve it. But the company (Tyrion/Dany/Jon) that brought the wall down all agrees they get no time out and best follow their Queen down south so more of them can die.

Jon, the guy who supposedly did all the things he did for the North, seems to care very little for it because he's completely Dany whipped.

 

The only way I can excuse Sansa's breaking her word to Jon, who is supposedly her family; is that she fears for her life as well as the North if Dany takes the Iron Throne:  Sansa was raised on stories of the Mad King's vicious killings of her grandfather and uncle; and now Aerys' daughter has come to the North to claim it, and makes a veiled threat against any opposition; also will not consider an independent North and she has apparently got Sansa's brother, the Warden of the North, as her yes-man.  But I'm still displeased by Sansa's sneaking around and telling on Jon to Tyrion...

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52 minutes ago, LadyBlackwater said:

Got a bit of a Littlefinger vibe in that move.

She's totally the new Littlefinger now.  He taught her well.

Pretty ridiculous that she broke her promise to Jon in what....like 3 minutes?

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1 hour ago, Raksha 2014 said:

The only way I can excuse Sansa's breaking her word to Jon, who is supposedly her family; is that she fears for her life as well as the North if Dany takes the Iron Throne:  Sansa was raised on stories of the Mad King's vicious killings of her grandfather and uncle; and now Aerys' daughter has come to the North to claim it, and makes a veiled threat against any opposition; also will not consider an independent North and she has apparently got Sansa's brother, the Warden of the North, as her yes-man.  But I'm still displeased by Sansa's sneaking around and telling on Jon to Tyrion...

What is there to excuse? Jon made them promise before he told them what that promise was for. If your brother asks you to promise not to tell, you swear and then he tells you he's going to murder someone the next day...will you keep that to yourself just because you promised to before you knew what you were promising them? Granted it's an extreme example but it applies.

And frankly, I'm so sick of Jon being a dick to Sansa while she constantly reaffirms his Starkness (which he doesn't give two shits about anymore), that she believes in him and that she fears for his life. All 3 of those things we had in this episode and Jon treated her like shit in return. Just before Sansa tells Tyrion, Sansa pointed out how badly the men in her family do in the South. And the fact that Tyrion fears Dany didn't escape Sansa either.

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49 minutes ago, Mystical said:

What is there to excuse? Jon made them promise before he told them what that promise was for. If your brother asks you to promise not to tell, you swear and then he tells you he's going to murder someone the next day...will you keep that to yourself just because you promised to before you knew what you were promising them? Granted it's an extreme example but it applies.

And frankly, I'm so sick of Jon being a dick to Sansa while she constantly reaffirms his Starkness (which he doesn't give two shits about anymore), that she believes in him and that she fears for his life. All 3 of those things we had in this episode and Jon treated her like shit in return. Just before Sansa tells Tyrion, Sansa pointed out how badly the men in her family do in the South. And the fact that Tyrion fears Dany didn't escape Sansa either.

I like the way you have read that scene. It was more or less the way I was reading it too, but I wish they had made it a little more obvious Sansa was grateful for what Dany had done, but still doesn't trust her.  And honestly she doesn't have to trust her.

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7 minutes ago, north of the wall said:

I like the way you have read that scene. It was more or less the way I was reading it too, but I wish they had made it a little more obvious Sansa was grateful for what Dany had done, but still doesn't trust her.  And honestly she doesn't have to trust her.

Sansa apologized to Dany in epiode 2 and told her she should have said 'thank you' the moment Dany arrived in WF. And I don't see Sansa as a snitch for revealing Jon's parentage to Tyrion. It's not like she planned it. She didn't say anything until after she realized Tyrion was afraid of Dany. So Sansa knows Stark men don't do well in KL and Tyrion is afraid of Dany. If Tyrion is afraid of her that doesn't bode well for Westeros so Jon would be the better option in her eyes. And seeing for herself how gung ho Dany is for the throne, that puts Jon's and everyone else's life in danger should Day decide to do something drastic.

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29 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Sansa apologized to Dany in epiode 2 and told her she should have said 'thank you' the moment Dany arrived in WF. And I don't see Sansa as a snitch for revealing Jon's parentage to Tyrion. It's not like she planned it. She didn't say anything until after she realized Tyrion was afraid of Dany. So Sansa knows Stark men don't do well in KL and Tyrion is afraid of Dany. If Tyrion is afraid of her that doesn't bode well for Westeros so Jon would be the better option in her eyes. And seeing for herself how gung ho Dany is for the throne, that puts Jon's and everyone else's life in danger should Day decide to do something drastic.

Right. And so now, Dany's life is in danger. And she has done nothing wrong, nothing to deserve death...

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1 minute ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Right. And so now, Dany's life is in danger. And she has done nothing wrong, nothing to deserve death...

What does that have to do with Sansa? Was Sansa the one who wanted to rush down to KL and take on Cersei with a battle exhausted army? Was Sansa the one who rode up to Dragonstone during the day when Dany left it completely undefended so no one has any idea what awaits them there? Because guess what, if Dany had listened to Sansa, Rheagal and Missandei would still be alive. And there were probably also lots of Northmen on Dany's ships, Sansa's people. Dany is perfectly capable of getting everyone killed, including herself. She doesn't need an assist from Sansa with that one.

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1 hour ago, north of the wall said:

I like the way you have read that scene. It was more or less the way I was reading it too, but I wish they had made it a little more obvious Sansa was grateful for what Dany had done, but still doesn't trust her.  And honestly she doesn't have to trust her.

 

28 minutes ago, Mystical said:

What does that have to do with Sansa? Was Sansa the one who wanted to rush down to KL and take on Cersei with a battle exhausted army? Was Sansa the one who rode up to Dragonstone during the day when Dany left it completely undefended so no one has any idea what awaits them there? Because guess what, if Dany had listened to Sansa, Rheagal and Missandei would still be alive. And there were probably also lots of Northmen on Dany's ships, Sansa's people. Dany is perfectly capable of getting everyone killed, including herself. She doesn't need an assist from Sansa with that one.

I agree with everything you said...

But Sansa saying she should have said thank you in ep2 doesn't really help now we are in ep4. There is so much Sansa hate I just feel like D&D don't want the audience to trust her. Which is a shame because it looks like she is spot on at judging a person now. She has definitely learned from past mistakes of trusting. 

Also would it kill D&D to make her a little more light hearted at times? I know after everything she has been through she is mistrusting and serious, but I can understand why people find her hard to like or relate to if she never makes them feel happy (I'm referring to the audience not characters) Sansa has changed a lot so far in the books and I expect her to change a lot more still by the time we reach this point in the books, but I still feel she has some light hearted and levity, she doesn't always seem to be  the one tone Sansa we see in show. (Although that is probably true for all the characters now on the show, they all seem to stay in one mood all the time, unless there are getting a love scene.)

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I pretty much agree with everything being said about Sansa's storyarc.

1. The Little Bird

Yes, it was infuriating to see Ramsay being mentioned as some sort of tool of empowerment. Sansa would probably see it that way personally, but this goes beyond that. This becomes a narrative of the TV show. You simply don't grow up without taking hits. And since this series, or at least the books are, is about growing up, one has to wonder what message they are sending. That we all need to be raped.

2. He would do the right thing

Ned was, indeed, one in a million. In the great debate of honor v love, Ned, per Jon's words would do the right thing. We see the same question in front of Sansa. She didn't betray Jon out of ambition, the conversation with Tyrion proves it. She sees Mad Queen in making and she understands that by deposing Cersei, you get another, this time, far stronger tyrant. So, telling Tyrion was, fascinatingly, in line what Ned would do. Because, at the end of day, Jon is the right thing for Starks, the right thing for North, the right thing for Westeros.

3. Sane argument, lack of proper communication

This season Sansa makes all the sane arguments - food shortage, North's future and in this episode, exhausted army. But... Her inability to communicate that is simply crazy. And it comes to the point where you simply don't understand the motives. The war council scene was just another example. Sansa made a sane argument but her attitude is simply leading her nowhere. Luckily, Arya intercepted Jon so they could have a family moment. And mediated between the two of them. Go, girl!!!

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7 hours ago, Pandean said:

One thing I didn't like was how Sansa and Sandor's conversation about what she'd been through could've been boiled down by "Abuse and rape made me strong."

But it's true - and it's a parallel to Sandors life: The abuse of his brother has made him what he is - a man who is able to defend himself!
It's a lesson how life works: pain is a better teacher than love! Sad, but true!

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