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Risto

Discussing Sansa XXXVII: The Hound and The Little Bird

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8 hours ago, Risto said:

So, we FINALLY got the reunion between Sansa and Hound.

Yeah, nicely done this reunion. I liked it quite a lot.

 

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8 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Amen. 

I was hoping Sansa would thank him for the gesture anyway, but nope. She's a hard bitch now. People don't need to love her.

I think she was thanking him/acknowledging that he wanted to spare her the pain, when she put her hand over his.  

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9 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

I respect TV-Sansa much less now; she gave her word to Jon to keep his secret; and broke it.  That's not a Stark thing to do; it's a sly, Cersei-like maneuver; and not unlike the 11-year-old Sansa in the book.  I thought she'd learned better.  

Its a Sansa thing to do. Very first book Jon and Arya say 'Don't tell Sansa' because they know she can't keep anything to herself

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6 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Its a Sansa thing to do. Very first book Jon and Arya say 'Don't tell Sansa' because they know she can't keep anything to herself

Except this isn't the books, it's the show. And that was never mentioned in the show. And lets not pretend these two characters are some kind of paragons of virtue. Jon has broken plenty oaths/vows/promises over the course of this show, including in this episode when his Queen ordered him to keep his parentage a secret and he revealed it anyway. Sansa wouldn't have had any opportunity to break her promise without Jon breaking his first.

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16 hours ago, Pandean said:

FINALLY they meet again. Only took four episodes of them being in the same place.

One thing I didn't like was how Sansa and Sandor's conversation about what she'd been through could've been boiled down by "Abuse and rape made me strong."

I cringed so hard! "If I would have gone with you, we could have been killed or I could have been raped by a hundred of soldiers before even leaving the KL!" That was the only legit explaination there.

This scene left me confused. Is it SanSan we hoped for? Is it more to come? Or does it mean there is no comeback to the things that could have happened, when they both were bond? If the latter, why bringing them together again? Sansa and The Hound spent the whole S7 and a half of S8 without acknowledging each other existence.

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7 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Its a Sansa thing to do. Very first book Jon and Arya say 'Don't tell Sansa' because they know she can't keep anything to herself

While there is much stronger case for this in the books, here doesn't work so well.

The thing is, Sansa didn't say this because she is unable to hold a secret. Telling Tyrion was not unintentional or a mistake. She counted down all her options, measured what to do and made a decision about it. 

30 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

This scene left me confused. Is it SanSan we hoped for? Is it more to come? Or does it mean there is no comeback to the things that could have happened, when they both were bond? If the latter, why bringing them together again? Sansa and The Hound spent the whole S7 and a half of S8 without acknowledging each other existence.

Oh, I wish, but I doubt it. Honestly, I don't know what will happen to Sansa anymore. Or anyone else :D

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1 hour ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

¡Me encogí tan fuerte! "Si hubiera ido contigo, podríamos habernos matado o podría haber sido violada por un centenar de soldados incluso antes de dejar el KL". Esa fue la única explicación legítima allí.

Esta escena me dejó confundido. ¿Es SanSan lo que esperábamos? ¿Es más por venir? ¿O significa que no hay un retorno a las cosas que podrían haber sucedido, cuando ambos estaban en condiciones de servidumbre? Si esto último, ¿por qué reunirlos de nuevo? Sansa y The Hound gastaron todo el S7 y medio de S8 sin reconocerse mutuamente la existencia.

I doubt Sansan much, Sandor told Arya that he does not intend to return to Winterfell, and I do not think Sansa ends up living anywhere other than Winterfell.

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2 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

This scene left me confused. Is it SanSan we hoped for? Is it more to come? Or does it mean there is no comeback to the things that could have happened, when they both were bond? If the latter, why bringing them together again? Sansa and The Hound spent the whole S7 and a half of S8 without acknowledging each other existence.

I think that is as much as we'll get between the two of them.  I think they wanted to acknowledge that they were important to each others development as people. 

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I liked that this probably last SanSan conversation (in the show, anyway) revealed a mutual respect; and showed that Sansa was grateful to Sandor and that he was still fond of her.  Also, he was talking to her first as the somewhat angry Hound, but changed to the most coherent we've ever seen, as if we were seeing, for the first time, the man he could have been if his vicious older brother hadn't burned him, the Sandor Clegane who should have been...

I'm not too crazy about the idea that Sansa's being raped and abused was necessary to make her a mature and intelligent woman; but I guess I can understand why TV-Sansa believes it.

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

"heard they broke you in rough"

What a repulsive line from a repulsive character. Something Book!Sandor would say though. 

 

Marital rape is not a concept that would be readily believed or agreed on in Westeros.  Sandor would probably expect any virgin to be "broken in" on her wedding night, that it would probably not be all hearts and roses for a virgin bride; but that a decent bridegroom would at least try to be gentle.  Maybe he's even thinking that if he had been the "little bird"'s husband, he'd have tried to be gentle with her and at least would not have abused her - which might be self-deceit, since Sandor still seems to be a heavy drinker.  I don't think it's out of character for Sandor; his speech patterns can be uncouth; but I don't think he meant to insult Sansa, that's just the clumsy, uncouth way he expressed regret for her suffering (notice he said after that that she should have come with him during/after Blackwater, he would have kept her safe, no Littlefinger, no Ramsay).

 

Edited by Raksha 2014

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23 hours ago, Pandean said:

One thing I didn't like was how Sansa and Sandor's conversation about what she'd been through could've been boiled down by "Abuse and rape made me strong."

I did not interpret her statements like that. To me she was acknowledging that she has been through some terrible trauma, but despite (not because of) everything she endured, she stayed strong and survived. I also thought she was making a general statement about how our pasts (even the bad parts) shape who we become.

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Sansa was the only one to see Ned get beheaded and it was because he got caught up in secret/better heir issues. And Jon's in even hotter water than Ned being that secret/better heir himself. Sansa's spent too much time in KL to believe that would ever work out and she's seen the outcome at its worst. 

 

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I was not thrilled with the SanSan reunion. Yes, I'm a shipper, but she dismissed him (much like she gently but thoroughly dismissed Tyrion in the last episode, no hard feelings, etc,.) in a way that said she hadn't learned much after all.

 

I agree with everyone who pointed out how inaccurate and offensive it is that Sansa needed to be brutalized and raped to grow strong - well said when you took that down. Dealing with Cersie and Littlefinger did teach her the game, but Sansa maybe learned some very wrong lessons from them too. She's clearly bought into the "love makes you weak" mantra of her mentors. She'd be blind not to see that Sandor loves her and Arya. But Sansa dismissed him as something she didn't need to get her where she wants to be.  She thinks she doesn't need love, or doesn't need a man that can't tell a lie and doesn't bring anything other than himself to a fight to defend the North. You can play that game and still respect an honest man. I wish she had said that. If she was smart, she'd see that he was a man who needs a purpose in life and if she had asked him to stay as her guard or military commander (even with no hint of romantic intent) he'd have stayed instead of giving in to his desire to go on a suicide mission to kill his brother. 

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

"heard they broke you in rough"

What a repulsive line from a repulsive character. Something Book!Sandor would say though. 

My major question about all of these characters knowing what happened to Sansa: HOW???? Even Dany seems to know.

Did they all check Twitter and search for 'Sansa Stark' and stumbled across Ramsey's account that was filled with 'What I did to Sansa Stark last night...' entries? It makes no freaking sense. The only people who knew were Theon and Sansa and neither of them would say a word as to what happened to them except something vague like 'it was horrible'. The only one who might know is the Maester since that's the same one Ramsey had but I'm sure Sansa would have removed him if he were a gossip. Brienne sort of knows because she was there for the Sansa/LF confrontation but Brienne would never tell.

3 hours ago, Kicollette said:

But Sansa dismissed him as something she didn't need to get her where she wants to be.

Talk about blowing things out of proportion. Where did she dismiss him? She didn't. In fact he's the one who brought up that none of it would have happened if she had gone with him.

3 hours ago, Kicollette said:

You can play that game and still respect an honest man. I wish she had said that.

What makes you think she doesn't respect him? Seriously, what scene were you watching?

Edited by Mystical

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Kicollette said:

I was not thrilled with the SanSan reunion. Yes, I'm a shipper, but she dismissed him (much like she gently but thoroughly dismissed Tyrion in the last episode, no hard feelings, etc,.) in a way that said she hadn't learned much after all.

 

I agree with everyone who pointed out how inaccurate and offensive it is that Sansa needed to be brutalized and raped to grow strong - well said when you took that down. Dealing with Cersie and Littlefinger did teach her the game, but Sansa maybe learned some very wrong lessons from them too. She's clearly bought into the "love makes you weak" mantra of her mentors. She'd be blind not to see that Sandor loves her and Arya. But Sansa dismissed him as something she didn't need to get her where she wants to be.  She thinks she doesn't need love, or doesn't need a man that can't tell a lie and doesn't bring anything other than himself to a fight to defend the North. You can play that game and still respect an honest man. I wish she had said that. If she was smart, she'd see that he was a man who needs a purpose in life and if she had asked him to stay as her guard or military commander (even with no hint of romantic intent) he'd have stayed instead of giving in to his desire to go on a suicide mission to kill his brother. 

I didn't interpret the scene the way you did.  I think she showed Sandor more tenderness than she has basically anyone else besides her siblings and Theon.  She wasn't saying she didn't need him in a dismissive sense.  I think Sansa has a lot of contempt for the fragile, naive little bird self she used to be.  Wanting to marry Joffrey, believing her father could be saved, etc.  So to her, through all the horrible things she went through, she shed that old self and has emerged hard and strong and smart and won't ever be taken for a fool ever again (this is her perspective, not necessarily mine!).  Her hand on his, and the gentle tone she used, said that she apparently has no desire to go back to being the little bird she once was, even if she could have avoided all the pain in between (and Sandor was saying, I could have spared you all that pain and I wish you would have let me protect you...Sansa is saying, I would take the pain if it means shedding the foolish girl I was and not needing to be protected anymore).  

I'm not saying her perspective isn't kinda tragic and messed up.  But I don't think she was trying to be dismissive at ALL.  She was gently correcting his perception that perhaps she wishes she could go back to being the innocent little bird. 

EDIT - and aside from all that, not everyone likes looking back and thinking "if only that could have been different or I had made a different choice."  Things are as they are, what happened, happened.  I don't think its super unusual for people to look at horrible life circumstances/experiences and to try to rationalize how something beneficial came out of it.  It doesn't mean they are happy it happened, but they can't change it, so...

Edited by Red Dragon10

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On 5/6/2019 at 9:44 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Right. And so now, Dany's life is in danger. And she has done nothing wrong, nothing to deserve death...

"She has done nothing wrong" . By the old gods and the new, are you serious?

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

"Abuse and rape made me strong."

This is not what she says.

She says: "Without Ramsey and Littlefinger I would still be the Little Bird". Period.

Looking back to Season 3, when the Lannisters force her to marry Tyrion, she calls herself "Stupid, stupid girl who never learns". This is the Little Bird.

She doesn't say she has become stronger, or a better person. People read what they want to read. If Sansa could answer the question: "What are you now?" She'd probably say "A survivor", because this is what she is. This is what she said Arya back in Season 7 ("You wouldn't have survived what I have").

It's Arya who thinks she is the "smartest person I know". Smart, not strong.

And Sansa thinks of Arya, she's "The strongest person I know".

She's not proud of what she has become, she's not grateful either. It's a matter-of-fact statement meant to reconcile with The Hound.

I do not see Ned Stark in Sansa, she's her mother's child through and through, who, let's not forget, released the Kingslayer (=betrayed her son Robb) to free her daughters: Family. Duty. Honor. In that order.

Edited by Ranger Kragin

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Posted (edited)

I don't find it all that unusual that everyone knows what to her. Its not like Ramsay was trying to keep any of it secret. Many of these characters spent time with Theon.  The general population in and around Winterfel had to know....

Edited by Larger than Average Finger

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2 hours ago, Ranger Kragin said:

I do not see Ned Stark in Sansa, she's her mother's child through and through, who, let's not forget, released the Kingslayer (=betrayed her son Robb) to free her daughters: Family. Duty. Honor. In that order.

Catelyn was always practical and when the time came, wild in nature. The way she defended Bran from the cutthroat or how she turned into Lady Stoneheart, screams Arya in many ways and is so far from reserved Sansa. Sansa is far more idealistic at the beginning like Ned. Just compare Sansa's relationship with Joffrey and Ned's with Robert. Sansa does excel in social situations but overall she is insecure, frightful and far less confident than one would imagine. We see her chapters in KL and how introvert she actually is. All of that is Ned. Ned believed in rules, rights, even human decency and all of that is something we see Sansa believes. 

Family came before honor for Ned numerous times. He hid Jon for years, he admitted treason for Sansa's life. Family for Ned was always more important than his honor. And Sansa is like that. 

Beside the hair and eyes, Catelyn and Sansa share little. Catelyn was fierce and wild when necessary, stubborn and cold. If she and Brandon ever had a child, it would be Arya. So, no, most definitely, Sansa is not her mother's daughter. At all.

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