Bittersweet Ending

[BlackLightning]

16 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

I think the bittersweet part is quite simple. Dany and Drogon die and Jon becomes King. So Westeros gets the rightful King it needs, but Jon ends up where he never wanted to be, sitting on the Iron Throne, alone & miserable.

Where's the sweet part in this?

What's so good about having a king who not only doesn't want to rule but has been broken by his losses? It sounds like another Robert Baratheon. And Jon becoming walking in the footsteps of Robert Baratheon is not a bittersweet ending; it is bitter.

[Rory Snow]

3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Where's the sweet part in this?

 

It's sweet for the realm. After a succession of horrible or inept rulers... Aerys, Robert, Joffrey, Tommen & Cersei... Westeros finally gets a wise and benevolent King in Jon

[Radish Knight]

It will be bittersweet in this travesty finally being over but knowing we may never find out GRRM's intended ending.

[BlackLightning]

8 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

It's sweet for the realm. After a succession of horrible or inept rulers... Aerys, Robert, Joffrey, Tommen & Cersei... Westeros finally gets a wise and benevolent King in Jon

Wise? Jon? Umm...right. I'm not touching that one.

Benevolent? Okay, benevolent people are benevolent because being benevolent and doing the right thing is a joyful thing for them. Benevolent people want to be benevolent. How can Jon be a benevolent king if he had to be literally forced to sit the Iron Throne and rule a broken nation. Every good act he will do as King will be forced; not because Jon is incapable of doing good for goodness sake as king but because Jon would rather be somewhere else with someone else doing something else.

How is that benevolent?

[Raksha 2014]

27 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

I think the bittersweet part is quite simple. Dany and Drogon die and Jon becomes King. So Westeros gets the rightful King it needs, but Jon ends up where he never wanted to be, sitting on the Iron Throne, alone & miserable.

I don't see either Jon or Dany ruling Westeros.  Dany might have a slightly better shot at it; since there are still Westerosi, including lords of whatever houses are left, who remember living under a Targaryen king as the norm; especially if Drogon stays alive as Dany's 'peacekeeper' policy.  But even that would be chancy unless Dany found a well-respected southern nobleman to be her consort.  If Dany dies and Jon sits on the throne; southern lords will be scratching their heads wondering why they should put up with a traitor's bastard/Night's Watch deserter, much less this gloomy Northerner.  Jon would have to wed a young lady from a well-liked and respected Southern family.  Both Dany and Jon, especially Jon, are to the South like Henry Tudor was to England after the Battle of Bosworth Field - unknown and not very charismatic, needing to marry a well-liked Southern noble (as Henry Tudor married Elizabeth of York).  Besides, Dany is unfamiliar, in practice, with many southern traditions as well as noble houses; and Jon might know them, but he doesn't have outstanding people skills outside of comradeship with fellow fighters battling against common enemies.

[Rory Snow]

2 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Wise? Jon? Umm...right. I'm not touching that one.

Benevolent? Okay, benevolent people are benevolent because being benevolent and doing the right thing is a joyful thing for them. Benevolent people want to be benevolent. How can Jon be a benevolent king if he had to be literally forced to sit the Iron Throne and rule a broken nation. Every good act he will do as King will be forced; not because Jon is incapable of doing good for goodness sake as king but because Jon would rather be somewhere else with someone else doing something else.

How is that benevolent?

In his brief stints as lord Commander of the Night's Watch and King in the North, he was wise and benevolent and he didn't want either of those jobs either, why should he be any different as King of the Seven Kingdoms?

[BlackLightning]

Just now, Rory Snow said:

In his brief stints as lord Commander of the Night's Watch and King in the North, he was wise and benevolent and he didn't want either of those jobs either, why should he be any different as King of the Seven Kingdoms?

Because he wasn't a particularly good Lord Commander. A truly wise leader would never send away all of his allies (thereby surrounding himself with enemies or people indifferent to him) and do nothing but agitate said enemies he surrounded himself with. A truly wise leader would have slowly implemented the changes that he made.

Nor was Jon particularly good as King in the North? Sansa did most of the work and the Northmen were sorely disappointed by both his acquiescence and his political weakness. The Glovers would have never broken flock if Jon was as good and strong as you thought he was. 

[Rory Snow]

1 minute ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Because he wasn't a particularly good Lord Commander. A truly wise leader would never send away all of his allies (thereby surrounding himself with enemies or people indifferent to him) and do nothing but agitate said enemies he surrounded himself with. A truly wise leader would have slowly implemented the changes that he made.

Nor was Jon particularly good as King in the North? Sansa did most of the work and the Northmen were sorely disappointed by both his acquiescence and his political weakness. The Glovers would have never broken flock if Jon was as good and strong as you thought he was. 

Ok, so you just don't like Jon... got it.

[Rory Snow]

16 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

I don't see either Jon or Dany ruling Westeros.  Dany might have a slightly better shot at it; since there are still Westerosi, including lords of whatever houses are left, who remember living under a Targaryen king as the norm; especially if Drogon stays alive as Dany's 'peacekeeper' policy.  But even that would be chancy unless Dany found a well-respected southern nobleman to be her consort.  If Dany dies and Jon sits on the throne; southern lords will be scratching their heads wondering why they should put up with a traitor's bastard/Night's Watch deserter, much less this gloomy Northerner.  Jon would have to wed a young lady from a well-liked and respected Southern family.  Both Dany and Jon, especially Jon, are to the South like Henry Tudor was to England after the Battle of Bosworth Field - unknown and not very charismatic, needing to marry a well-liked Southern noble (as Henry Tudor married Elizabeth of York).  Besides, Dany is unfamiliar, in practice, with many southern traditions as well as noble houses; and Jon might know them, but he doesn't have outstanding people skills outside of comradeship with fellow fighters battling against common enemies.

Jon and/or Dany would walk into the job of King or Queen with the support of the North, Iron Islands, the Vale, the Stormlands and Dorne. Jon could likely also count on both Riverrun and the Tarleys as well. Of all the problems they might encounter i don't think lack of support will be one of them, certainly not at the beginning.

[Squall]

Dany and Jon don't have a lot of good odds. But I think at the end there will be peace. And like Varys says, the common folk don't care who's exactly on top. They just want food and a quiet life. That's the sweet part.

The bitter one is probably the "disappearance" of many major characters leaving or dying. And probably D&D mess up too, double bitter.

[BlackLightning]

6 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

Ok, so you just don't like Jon... got it.

I do like Jon.

The show version of Jon is just not the wise and benevolent person you think he is. Nobody with a shred of wisdom would have made the decisions he made during the Battle of the Bastards.

[Rory Snow]

2 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I do like Jon.

The show version of Jon is just not the wise and benevolent person you think he is. Nobody with a shred of wisdom would have made the decisions he made during the Battle of the Bastards.

He's not perfect and he's made mistakes but he is wise and has vision. He knew he would need the Wildlings before anyone else could recognize it and made it happen. He knew he would need Dany and her military strength and went against all advice to make it happen. Both those things paid huge dividends eventually. He sees what needs to be done before most others and he's willing to make unpopular choices and sacrifice himself for the greater good and do what he knows is right. Not sure what more one could want from a leader.

[Raksha 2014]

5 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

Jon and/or Dany would walk into the job of King or Queen with the support of the North, Iron Islands, the Vale, the Stormlands and Dorne. Jon could likely also count on both Riverrun and the Tarleys as well. Of all the problems they might encounter i don't think lack of support will be one of them, certainly not at the beginning.

At the moment the nominal king of the Iron Islands is Euron; he's got the fleet.  We don't know if Yara has been successful in Pyke.  Why would the Stormlands support Jon rather than Cersei, who is a Baratheon widow?  Daenerys' say-so doesn't make Gendry a Baratheon and lord of the Stormlands.  Riverrun, maybe; if Sansa writes to her uncle; that is, if Edmure has escaped the dungeon and reclaimed Riverrun yet.  Are there any Vale troops still alive after the battle of Winterfell? And will Robin support the Stark sisters or their supposed bastard brother/Targaryen half-brother after they executed his "Uncle Petyr"?  Who is running House Tarly - Sam, his mom?  I don't think they have any troops left either.  Would any other noble houses of the Reach want to put themselves between Cersei and the Dragon queen, or side with one or another - I'd think they'd want to try to stay neutral until one or the other side emerges victorious.

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

  We don't know if Yara has been successful in Pyke. 

Varys told Dany in epi 4 that Yara got the Iron Islands back for the queen, after mentioning the new Prince of Dorne supports Dany too.

[theladyinspring]

Jon would be a terrible king and his reign would be brief. Not because he's not kind and benevolent, and not because he wouldn't care for the people (unlike Robert). But because he is fundamentally incapable of not only playing the game of thrones, but even understanding that there is a game being played. He can't read people. Daenerys was right in her warning that "they" wouldn't let him have what he wanted and leave him alone if they knew who he really was. And now look how many people are actively plotting to put him on the throne, and even kill the woman he loves in order to do it! 

"If we tell the truth everything will be okay and love conquers all" is just wrong, wrong, wrong when you're playing the game of thrones. It's life or death. Now of course, Jon wouldn't want to play the game just as he doesn't want to be king (the two go hand in hand). But he's critically lacking in awareness, even worse than Ned. Jon wouldn't last a year with all the game-playing and machinations going on if he were king. They're already starting!

Sansa said it again this episode, Stark men don't belong south. 

[sweetsunray]

For the show I'm going with horrific tragic ending

[Rory Snow]

18 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

At the moment the nominal king of the Iron Islands is Euron; he's got the fleet.  We don't know if Yara has been successful in Pyke.  Why would the Stormlands support Jon rather than Cersei, who is a Baratheon widow?  Daenerys' say-so doesn't make Gendry a Baratheon and lord of the Stormlands.  Riverrun, maybe; if Sansa writes to her uncle; that is, if Edmure has escaped the dungeon and reclaimed Riverrun yet.  Are there any Vale troops still alive after the battle of Winterfell? And will Robin support the Stark sisters or their supposed bastard brother/Targaryen half-brother after they executed his "Uncle Petyr"?  Who is running House Tarly - Sam, his mom?  I don't think they have any troops left either.  Would any other noble houses of the Reach want to put themselves between Cersei and the Dragon queen, or side with one or another - I'd think they'd want to try to stay neutral until one or the other side emerges victorious.

At the moment is immaterial. We were talking about Jon or Dany ruling from the Iron Throne. Obviously that doesn't happen unless they already defeated Cersei. 

As for support... Yara already has the Iron Islands and Euron would be dead. Edmure presumably got released at the death of the male Freys and would lead the Riverlands. King Jon or Queen Dany would legitimize Gendry as a Baratheon so Storm's End is handled. Sam, Jon's best friend would be the leader of House Tarley. Warden of the North Sansa would be with Jon obviously and the Vale goes with her. Dorne has already declared. Initial support for their rule is the least of their worries

[Astrotherapist]

3 hours ago, Quillon said:

After episode 4 its clear either Dany or Jon rules in the end but not together and one of them is definitely gonna die. If Dany dies, Jon will rule for better or worse, if Jon dies Dany will become a mad queen after all the trauma of losing the ones closest to her, paranoia of another living Targ with better claim who declined her affections and possibly burning thousands of Kinglanders. It seems to me former is bittersweet, latter is sad as endings go. The third option is Cercei defeating them both but that's a horrific ending...or a forth option: doom comes to Westeros and everyone dies  So If it will really be a bittersweet ending... yeah. 

I don't think that's clear.  The sudden legitimacy of Gendry by Queen Daenerys' decree may prove to be quite significant later after Jon & Dany die, or Jon goes into self-imposed exile in the far North.   Gendry's uncanny survival throughout a series which loves to kill off characters has always made him a dark horse in the running who is now catching up! 

[robasp2]

You know what the bitter sweet ending is?

Cercei remains the ruler of the seven kingdoms. And though heroes have tried to end her, "the world doesn't always be good".

The End.

Horrible, but with two episodes, a few unsullied, dragons falling like mosquitoes, and the odds heavily in favor of Cercei, this is the only ending I can see.

[Rory Snow]

11 minutes ago, theladyinspring said:

Jon would be a terrible king and his reign would be brief. Not because he's not kind and benevolent, and not because he wouldn't care for the people (unlike Robert). But because he is fundamentally incapable of not only playing the game of thrones, but even understanding that there is a game being played. He can't read people. Daenerys was right in her warning that "they" wouldn't let him have what he wanted and leave him alone if they knew who he really was. And now look how many people are actively plotting to put him on the throne, and even kill the woman he loves in order to do it! 

"If we tell the truth everything will be okay and love conquers all" is just wrong, wrong, wrong when you're playing the game of thrones. It's life or death. Now of course, Jon wouldn't want to play the game just as he doesn't want to be king (the two go hand in hand). But he's critically lacking in awareness, even worse than Ned. Jon wouldn't last a year with all the game-playing and machinations going on if he were king. They're already starting!

Sansa said it again this episode, Stark men don't belong south. 

I don't think he'd be a terrible King but I agree he'd be a terrible player of the game and likely wouldn't last very long. But if surrounded by Tyrion, Varys & Davos perhaps those 3 schemers could keep him alive.