Why are they plotting a coup?

[BlackLightning]

This is just weird.

Can someone help me understand when Daenerys Targaryen became so villainous that people seriously entertain the idea that she's worse than Cersei?

[darmody]

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

So it’s become extremely apparent that the Starks and Tyrion are plotting to declare Jon King. This is clearly the main twist.

Iam truly lost for words. Sansa and Arya were genuinely all for not marching south to fight Cersei. After Dany lost Jorah and most of her army helping the living? Scum. Absolute scum. It’s beyond contempt. To have no empathy for somebody who has helped you and whose only condition was that you do something you wanted to do anyway.

Why are they making a power play? They’ve won. Winterfell is theirs and they’ve avenged their family. Putting Jon on the throne is a risk. What if Dany finds out? What if she doesn’t drop her claim quietly? That risks another civil war. All because you just don’t like somebody? 

 

 

 

 

It's Varys, really. Sansa is stewing and wouldn't do anything more than sit in the North and not budge. Tyrion wouldn't act, either. But Varys is a snake. 

[StarkofWinterfell]

4 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

This is just weird.

Can someone help me understand when Daenerys Targaryen became so villainous that people seriously entertain the idea that she's worse than Cersei?

No clue. But some people *cough* seem to have a deep seated hatred for her

[sweetsunray]

While I agree that in actions Dany went full in to help fight for the survivors, and for that does not immediately deserve distrust, I cannot fully fault either Sansa or Arya of distrusting her because of her words before and her actions after.

It is not strategically sound to rush back south to KL to besiege it with low numbers. The Northern troops have fought for Robb, were slaughtered at the Red Wedding, slaughtered against Ramsay, slaughtered against tAotD. And if they rush south against Cersei, unprepared, the North is left completely undefended. Rhaegal could have used the rest and healing, and leaving for Dragonstone while there's a huge Euron fleet nearby just makes no strategic sense. So, Sansa's protestations and suggestion to "wait" were proven to be sound, and not only beneficial to the North but could have benefited Dany.

Sansa also noted that Dany rewarded a man who was Jon's man, who had chosen to be there for the Starks, and give him a castle and lordship, not truly to reward him, but to make him her man. Arya soon learned of it and thus lost someone of her pack. Sure, he wants to make her his family, but doing so would remove her from her pack and be something she ain't.

Dany thought she was smart and striking the iron while it was hot, but shot herself in the foot because of it. It isn't Dany's destiny to sit on the IT. She may feel she does, but it isn't. In fact, she had visions that told her the throne is out of reach for her, and Daario also told her she was a conquerer instead of a ruler. She's starting to sound like show-Stannis and Renly combined, for she knows that Jon has a better claim, and particularly wants to hide it, because she knows people will be drawn to him. Yes, Ned hid the secret while Jon wasn't of age yet, when it was a direct danger to his life. Dany wants to hide it, because she knows she won't get the support for the throne otherwise, nor is she willing to share the rule, and Jon does seem uncomfortabe about the fact she's his aunt.

Dany isn't squeaky clean here, nor taking the threat that Cersei & Euron alliance poses serious enough. And it puts Jon and the North in danger, and it's absolutely Sansa's right to speak up for it. As Sansa would put it, Dany doesn't know Cersei as well as she does. Yes, Tyrion knows her too, but as Sansa pointed out "has divided loyalties" (BTW I had the impression that Tyrion actually signalled Cersei to go ahead with the beheading after making his speech how she's not a monster) and because of that will never truly regard Cersei as the enemy. Sansa knows far better how ruthless Cersei can be and how she regards pretty much everyone as her enemy. Dany could have used her time better, learning from Sansa about Cersei.

On top of that, both Sansa and Arya have seen and experienced what Cersei does with Stark men who are honorable and naive. Can you blame them for wanting to look out for Jon?

Yes, Sansa causes shit by blabbing to Tyrion, but she also makes sure that neither Varys or Tyrion will regard Jon as an expendible commander, but as a highly needed asset they need to preserve. While Arya does the same thing in her own way - she intends to take out Cersei to protect Jon.

[darmody]

1 hour ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

I disagree. Dany is loved by her people

Her people don't amount to many at this point. Maybe if she brought more Easterners.

[BlackLightning]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

While I agree that in actions Dany went full in to help fight for the survivors, and for that does not immediately deserve distrust, I cannot fully fault either Sansa or Arya of distrusting her because of her words before and her actions after.

It is not strategically sound to rush back south to KL to besiege it with low numbers. The Northern troops have fought for Robb, were slaughtered at the Red Wedding, slaughtered against Ramsay, slaughtered against tAotD. And if they rush south against Cersei, unprepared, the North is left completely undefended. Rhaegal could have used the rest and healing, and leaving for Dragonstone while there's a huge Euron fleet nearby just makes no strategic sense. So, Sansa's protestations and suggestion to "wait" were proven to be sound, and not only beneficial to the North but could have benefited Dany.

Sansa also noted that Dany rewarded a man who was Jon's man, who had chosen to be there for the Starks, and give him a castle and lordship, not truly to reward him, but to make him her man. Arya soon learned of it and thus lost someone of her pack. Sure, he wants to make her his family, but doing so would remove her from her pack and be something she ain't.

Dany thought she was smart and striking the iron while it was hot, but shot herself in the foot because of it. It isn't Dany's destiny to sit on the IT. She may feel she does, but it isn't. In fact, she had visions that told her the throne is out of reach for her, and Daario also told her she was a conquerer instead of a ruler. She's starting to sound like show-Stannis and Renly combined, for she knows that Jon has a better claim, and particularly wants to hide it, because she knows people will be drawn to him. Yes, Ned hid the secret while Jon wasn't of age yet, when it was a direct danger to his life. Dany wants to hide it, because she knows she won't get the support for the throne otherwise, nor is she willing to share the rule, and Jon does seem uncomfortabe about the fact she's his aunt.

Dany isn't squeaky clean here, nor taking the threat that Cersei & Euron alliance poses serious enough. And it puts Jon and the North in danger, and it's absolutely Sansa's right to speak up for it.

On top of that, both Sansa and Arya have seen and experienced what Cersei does with Stark men who are honorable and naive. Can you blame them for wanting to look out for Jon?

Yes, Sansa causes shit by blabbing to Tyrion, but she also makes sure that neither Varys or Tyrion will regard Jon as an expendible commander, but as a highly needed asset they need to preserve. While Arya does the same thing in her own way - she intends to take out Cersei to protect Jon.

What are they supposed to do? Sit and wait for Cersei to come for them? Because she will; it's better for them to go south and fight offensively with an option of a retreat than to fight defensively and have their backs up against a couple of broken walls.

There is nothing in the North that can prepare them from fresh, well-fed, well-equipped armies. So, the idea of gathering their strength is not a good one.

And when did Daenerys say she was unwilling to co-rule with Jon?

Ned kept the secret of Jon's parentage secret for a lot of different reasons. Only one of those reasons was to protect Jon.

How is undermining and plotting against Daenerys looking out for Jon?

[Nami]

13 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

No clue. But some people *cough* seem to have a deep seated hatred for her

Because they want dumb Snow on the throne.

[Nami]

5 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

 

How is undermining and plotting against Daenerys looking out for Jon?

Behind his back too. And Dany warned him this would happen: once people find out, they will change and it won't matter what he wants. But he's a fucking idiot.

[Quillon]

6 minutes ago, Nami said:

But he's a fucking idiot.

Well, the show runners have been trying to make him Ned Stark 2.0 for several seasons now.

[BlackLightning]

Things are spiraling out of control.

I watched this episode with my family and I told them right then and there that Daenerys was right and that not keeping this a secret is going to cause lots of problems. They told me that I was wrong and that he needs to tell them

Fast forward to the end of the episode with how Jon's attempt to level with Sansa and Arya ballooned into Varys plotting to assassinate Daenerys for something she didn't even do and a drunken Tyrion silently refusing to interfere with Varys' ill-conceived plans while continuing to enable Cersei.....my family agreed with me.

Ned was very wise for not telling anyone about Jon's parentage. Because things would have gotten very ugly if he so much as uttered a word to Catelyn, Luwin or, god forbid, Jon Arryn

[Tyrion1991]

34 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

While I agree that in actions Dany went full in to help fight for the survivors, and for that does not immediately deserve distrust, I cannot fully fault either Sansa or Arya of distrusting her because of her words before and her actions after.

It is not strategically sound to rush back south to KL to besiege it with low numbers. The Northern troops have fought for Robb, were slaughtered at the Red Wedding, slaughtered against Ramsay, slaughtered against tAotD. And if they rush south against Cersei, unprepared, the North is left completely undefended. Rhaegal could have used the rest and healing, and leaving for Dragonstone while there's a huge Euron fleet nearby just makes no strategic sense. So, Sansa's protestations and suggestion to "wait" were proven to be sound, and not only beneficial to the North but could have benefited Dany.

Sansa also noted that Dany rewarded a man who was Jon's man, who had chosen to be there for the Starks, and give him a castle and lordship, not truly to reward him, but to make him her man. Arya soon learned of it and thus lost someone of her pack. Sure, he wants to make her his family, but doing so would remove her from her pack and be something she ain't.

Dany thought she was smart and striking the iron while it was hot, but shot herself in the foot because of it. It isn't Dany's destiny to sit on the IT. She may feel she does, but it isn't. In fact, she had visions that told her the throne is out of reach for her, and Daario also told her she was a conquerer instead of a ruler. She's starting to sound like show-Stannis and Renly combined, for she knows that Jon has a better claim, and particularly wants to hide it, because she knows people will be drawn to him. Yes, Ned hid the secret while Jon wasn't of age yet, when it was a direct danger to his life. Dany wants to hide it, because she knows she won't get the support for the throne otherwise, nor is she willing to share the rule, and Jon does seem uncomfortabe about the fact she's his aunt.

Dany isn't squeaky clean here, nor taking the threat that Cersei & Euron alliance poses serious enough. And it puts Jon and the North in danger, and it's absolutely Sansa's right to speak up for it.

On top of that, both Sansa and Arya have seen and experienced what Cersei does with Stark men who are honorable and naive. Can you blame them for wanting to look out for Jon?

Yes, Sansa causes shit by blabbing to Tyrion, but she also makes sure that neither Varys or Tyrion will regard Jon as an expendible commander, but as a highly needed asset they need to preserve. While Arya does the same thing in her own way - she intends to take out Cersei to protect Jon.

 

I don’t believe Sansa was sincere at all. Both her and Arya were all but winking at each other over the table. They wanted to delay and procrastinate because they knew Dany would rush on without them. That is them reneging on their end of the deal. A very one sided deal at that.

 

[Anthony Pirtle]

43 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

This is just weird.

Can someone help me understand when Daenerys Targaryen became so villainous that people seriously entertain the idea that she's worse than Cersei?

I don't think anyone on the show thinks she's worse than Cersei. The question they're asking themselves and each other is whether or not she's the best option available. Personally I don't think Jon or Dany would make for particularly successful monarchs on their own. They'd do better together, but with their friends and advisers now taking up sides, I doubt that's going to happen.

[Quillon]

4 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Ned was very wise for not telling anyone about Jon's parentage. Because things would have gotten very ugly if he so much as uttered a word to Catelyn, Luwin or, god forbid, Jon Arryn

Well circumstances have changed, Ned kept the secret in peace time & didn't want to overthrow his friend neither and had no love for Targs to want them back on the throne.

Now they are already at war & in danger, revealing the secret ain't that insane compared to doing it in peace time out of the blue.

[Forlong the Fat]

47 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

This is just weird.

Can someone help me understand when Daenerys Targaryen became so villainous that people seriously entertain the idea that she's worse than Cersei?

Who said she’s worse than Cersei?

[BlackLightning]

14 minutes ago, Anthony Pirtle said:

I don't think anyone on the show thinks she's worse than Cersei. The question they're asking themselves and each other is whether or not she's the best option available. Personally I don't think Jon or Dany would make for particularly successful monarchs on their own. They'd do better together, but with their friends and advisers now taking up sides, I doubt that's going to happen.

And to them Jon is the best option? How can someone who clearly does not want the job be the best candidate to perform said job.

That's crazy.

That's like trying to hire someone for a position that they never applied for, that they never interviewed for and that they repeatedly told you that they weren't interested in.

It's one thing to not particularly like/want a job and do it anyways because of duty, honor or something. But when you don't want something, you don't want it. Even if you are cajoled or forced into doing it, you do everything you can not to do it.

If you're lucky, you'll turn out to be a Robert Baratheon.

 

[sweetsunray]

39 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

What are they supposed to do? Sit and wait for Cersei to come for them? Because she will; it's better for them to go south and fight offensively with an option of a retreat than to fight defensively and have their backs up against a couple of broken walls.

There is nothing in the North that can prepare them from fresh, well-fed, well-equipped armies. So, the idea of gathering their strength is not a good one.

And when did Daenerys say she was unwilling to co-rule with Jon?

Ned kept the secret of Jon's parentage secret for a lot of different reasons. Only one of those reasons was to protect Jon.

How is undermining and plotting against Daenerys looking out for Jon?

Well strictly speaking you can defend the North easily from Moat Cailin if need be. They have enough forces for that.

[BlackLightning]

10 minutes ago, Quillon said:

Well circumstances have changed, Ned kept the secret in peace time & didn't want to overthrow his friend neither and had no love for Targs to want them back on the throne.

Now they are already at war & in danger, revealing the secret ain't that insane compared to doing it in peace time out of the blue.

Actually the war wasn't over yet.

[BlackLightning]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

Well strictly speaking you can defend the North easily from Moat Cailin if need be. They have enough forces for that.

That doesn't prevent an invasion by sea which Cersei's forces have proven themselves to be fully capable of.

[Kristoff]

Just now, Jabar of House Titan said:

Actually the war wasn't over yet.

Unless you're suggesting Ned pressed the claims of an infant than the war was very much over.

[Anthony Pirtle]

7 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

And to them Jon is the best option? How can someone who clearly does not want the job be the best candidate to perform said job.

That's crazy.

That's like trying to hire someone for a position that they never applied for, that they never interviewed for and that they repeatedly told you that they weren't interested in.

It's one thing to not particularly like/want a job and do it anyways because of duty, honor or something. But when you don't want something, you don't want it. Even if you are cajoled or forced into doing it, you do everything you can not to do it.

If you're lucky, you'll turn out to be a Robert Baratheon.

That's why I don't think he'd be a great monarch without Dany. He lacks a quality that people seem to judge harshly in her but is absolutely necessary for such a ruler - ambition. However, he is more just and temperate, and I assume that's what Sansa and Varys, who seem principally concerned about the welfare of the people, see in him. Like I said, I think they'd do better as a power couple.