Why are they plotting a coup?

[ShadowKitteh]

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

What I don't understand is how there has yet to be a single character in the show who has discussed the idea of marriage  with Jon and Danny. 

 

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! 

This is where the show really goes off the rails. It’s a plot device. Nothing more and nothing less. It’s so obvious that their marriage is the solution that it it is painful to watch. And John being unwilling to marry her because she is his aunt? Really!? C’mon man. He’s willing to bed her ten ways from Sunday but marriage is where he draws the line? Please....

 

 

Uhm......did you both miss this conversation from S8E1?

Davos proposes a proposal between Dany & Jon...

And I'm pretty sure this is likely an extension of that same idea (the last thing Jorah says to her), which is why Dany goes to speak to Sansa immediately afterwards in S8E2.

Jorah advises Dany

Also, why would Jon be bothered Dany is his Aunt, when no one else in Westeros would care, and his own grandparents were first cousins, as are half the population? 

 

[Erkan12]

38 minutes ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

I actually don't really see why Jon would be better. I get Danny being a nutty brat could cause her to lose support but not why jon is supposed to be a better alternative other than being the main hero.

he's just not as good. Jon's tenure as Night Watch commander ended in failure, he only won the Battle of the Bastards because of Sansa and he turned out not to be the chosen one after all. Jon isn't even a particularly good leader of the North considering his subjects very quickly became very grumpy about him. Jon doesn't strike me as having the required political skills or even any political skills. 

Only few traitors stabbed him in the Night Watch, then they executed those traitors, and Jon was still the Lord Commander. Then he managed to convince the wildlings, which is something no one did before. Northern lords chose him as their leader because they believed in him even though he was a bastard with no name. Davos keeps following him for that reason as well.

Compare that to Dany;

She burned the masters alive so she gets the Unsullied.

She burned the Dothraki leaders so she gets the Dothraki.

Everyone followed her because of her Dragons and her ability to not burn. She is basically a witch who is using supernatural abilities to win and rule.

Jon is a natural born leader, everyone followed him because of that reason alone, not for anything else.

[Erkan12]

43 minutes ago, divica said:

If the choice was either one or the other jon does sound better.

But the biggest and most obvious question of this whole season

WHY DON T THEY GET MARRIED?

It would make everyone happy!

The answer is clear: She isn't listening what people say. As Varys says, she would bend Jon into her will, she even did that to Khal Drago, when she refused to listen Drago and caused a fight between mago and Drago, which is why Drago died due to that injury he took from mago, although a Witch poisoned Drago, Dany was still a fool enough to trust those people easily.

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

2 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

The answer is clear: She isn't listening what people say. As Varys says, she would bend Jon into her will, she even did that to Khal Drago, when she refused to listen Drago and caused a fight between mago and Drago, which is why Drago died due to that injury he took from mago, although a Witch poisoned Drago, Dany was still a fool enough to trust those people easily.

Yep. Dany’s whole arc is her unshakable belief that her right to rule is without question. 

She doesn’t care what her advisers tell her anymore. In her mind, anything short of taking the throne immediately is bad advice. 

There’s no way she’s going to be amenable go Jon playing in her sandbox as co-ruler, and any suggestion of it will be treasonous from her perspective.  

[Hodor's Dragon]

5 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

Only few traitors stabbed him in the Night Watch, then they executed those traitors, and Jon was still the Lord Commander.

This is a contentious summary to say the least. Most commanders don't get the chance to try again after getting murdered by their soldiers. Also, you left out the part that only a few guys holed up in a room and about to get killed BY THE NIGHT'S WATCH wanted to call that murder, and by the way you forgot to mention that those guys were about to get smoked before the wildlings kicked in the door and made the Watch surrender.

Then he managed to convince the wildlings, which is something no one did before.

That was a good move BUT it earned him a lot of political trouble, which is ongoing. The wildlings aren't accepted in the North

Northern lords chose him as their leader because they believed in him even though he was a bastard with no name.

And, as their leader, HE BENT THE KNEE. If he's really their leader, that's the end of the story.

Davos keeps following him for that reason as well.

Compare that to Dany;

She burned the masters, who damned well had it coming, alive so she gets the Unsullied. You forgot to mention that part about freeing the slaves. Not worth mentioning?

She burned the Dothraki leaders in self-defense so she gets the Dothraki. The Dothraki follow strength. It is known.

Everyone followed her because of her Dragons and her ability to not burn.

This is false. She's a legend all over Essos primarily because she freed the slaves

She is basically a witch who is using supernatural abilities to win and rule.

Don't know what you mean by "witch," but I don't think anybody in the books or show calls her that. And for sure her dragons are important now, but she basically freed the slaves using her mind and her leadership skills. Nothing supernatural about it.

Jon is a natural born leader, everyone followed him because of that reason alone, not for anything else.

Whatever. If you want to be taken seriously, try a little bit harder to look from both sides.

 

[ShadowKitteh]

1 hour ago, Erkan12 said:

Only reason why Dany think she deserves the IT;

1- She thinks she was the only Targaryen

2- She thinks her Dragons were powerful enough to take the IT

Both proven to be wrong.

Jon is better because;

1- Jon is a male Targaryen heir,

2- A proven fighter and a leader born and raised in Westeros,

3- He is the only one who can hold the North in the Seven Kingdom.

He is just better, it has nothing to do with hating Dany, it's totally logical, Varys has seen that as well, Tyrion also knows that but his honor is stopping him to betray Dany.

Totally agree.

As for #1: Male or not, he's next in line before Dany. Period. Dany is Rhaegar's sister. Any offspring of Rhaegar, and their offspring after that, are in line ahead of Dany.

Dany is the equivalent of Prince Andrew. If anything happens to Prince Charles, William, Charles's eldest son, is next in line to the English throne when QEII passes on (longer may she reign.) After William, are all of Wills & Kate's children... after that is Prince Harry, then his and Meghan's new baby boy. Andrew gets farther from the throne with each birth.

It kills me Dany wants Jon, of all people, to live a lie, when he's unknowingly done that his entire life, while having been all about honor the entire time. The first thing he says to Sam, after being told who his parents are, is, "My father was the most honorable man I ever met. You're saying he lied to me all my life?"

And how disappointing for Jon, knowing she's okay with that. Sansa nails that one when she said, "Men do stupid things for women..." (and straight to Dany's face, before it happens...)

I'm hoping Dany wakes up before becoming Aerys 2.1, since Cersei is already Aerys 2.0. 

After all this time of having empowering female characters, no matter their original station, the two who reach the pinnacle of power both go crazy? As if females can't handle it? 

I call BS on that! 

And I agree with you on the rest. It's also sad that Dany doesn't seem to be able to see the obvious: Jon not only makes her FAMILY claim stronger, it would unite the North, and likely everyone else who isn't on Team Cersei™.

Why turn Dany into such a narcissist? I'm super disappointed in that. Her hubris cost her Rhaegal, and Missandei. 

[House Cambodia]

Just now, ShadowKitteh said:

After all this time of having empowering female characters, no matter their original station, the two who reach the pinnacle of power both go crazy? As if females can't handle it? 

I call BS on that! 

Yeah, Elizabeth Warren was a bit premature with her praise there. Mind you, I'm happy that the writers aren't being all PC with their portrayal of women. Not so happy with their portrayal of colour though - they've just killed off the only non-white named woman in the show, who was acquired by super-white Daenerys when she took on the white woman's burden in Slavers Bay.

[White Walker King]

13 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

Haven’t seen that explicitly stated by anyone. It’s been spelled out pretty clearly that the writers are TRYING to paint Dany in a bad light when she’s done nothing wrong and has been a good ruler for 7 seasons prior. 

 In fact, it’s more that people are racist and didn’t like seeing the Dothraki and Unsullied that were of different skin color than them.

 

12 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

No clue. But some people *cough* seem to have a deep seated hatred for her

I hardly even noticed that the Dothraki and Unsullied are of a different race. And although Grey Worm is, we haven't seen the faces of enough of the other Unsullied to know. (then again, I don't hate Dany, I'm fairly neutral on her)

[Erkan12]

11 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Totally agree.

As for #1: Male or not, he's next in line before Dany. Period. Dany is Rhaegar's sister. Any offspring of Rhaegar, and their offspring after that, are in line ahead of Dany.

Dany is the equivalent of Prince Andrew. If anything happens to Prince Charles, William, Charles's eldest son, is next in line to the English throne when QEII passes on (longer may she reign.) After William, are all of Wills & Kate's children... after that is Prince Harry, then his and Meghan's new baby boy. Andrew gets farther from the throne with each birth.

It kills me Dany wants Jon, of all people, to live a lie, when he's unknowingly done that his entire life, while having been all about honor the entire time. The first thing he says to Sam, after being told who his parents are, is, "My father was the most honorable man I ever met. You're saying he lied to me all my life?"

And how disappointing for Jon, knowing she's okay with that. Sansa nails that one when she said, "Men do stupid things for women..." (and straight to Dany's face, before it happens...)

I'm hoping Dany wakes up before becoming Aerys 2.1, since Cersei is already Aerys 2.0. 

After all this time of having empowering female characters, no matter their original station, the two who reach the pinnacle of power both go crazy? As if females can't handle it? 

I call BS on that! 

And I agree with you on the rest. It's also sad that Dany doesn't seem to be able to see the obvious: Jon not only makes her FAMILY claim stronger, it would unite the North, and likely everyone else who isn't on Team Cersei™.

Why turn Dany into such a narcissist? I'm super disappointed in that. Her hubris cost her Rhaegal, and Missandei. 

Being raised in Westeros is also important. Lords don't like Dany not because she is a woman she has also never been in Westeros before, she is a ''foreigner'' to them. While Jon has been raised by Eddard Stark, a high lord that everyone respects.

[ShadowKitteh]

Just now, House Cambodia said:

Yeah, Elizabeth Warren was a bit premature with her praise there. Mind you, I'm happy that the writers aren't being all PC with their portrayal of women. Not so happy with their portrayal of colour though - they've just killed off the only non-white named woman in the show, who was acquired by super-white Daenerys when she took on the white woman's burden in Slavers Bay.

All I could think of when they were riding into Winterfell in S8E1 and again in S8E2 when Missandei says hello to someone only to have them silently reject her, then she and Grey Worm have their - let's go live on beach somewhere after we save the world.... was, #WInterfellSoWhite.

[ShadowKitteh]

2 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

Being raised in Westeros is also important, lords doesn't like Dany not because she is a woman she is also never been in Westeros before, she is a ''foreigner'' to them. While Jon was raised by Eddard Stark, a high lord that everyone respects.

Shame Lyanna Mormont is gone. She might have been the best of all of them. 

[Sigella]

15 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

So it’s become extremely apparent that the Starks and Tyrion are plotting to declare Jon King. This is clearly the main twist.

Iam truly lost for words. Sansa and Arya were genuinely all for not marching south to fight Cersei. After Dany lost Jorah and most of her army helping the living? Scum. Absolute scum. It’s beyond contempt. To have no empathy for somebody who has helped you and whose only condition was that you do something you wanted to do anyway.

Why are they making a power play? They’ve won. Winterfell is theirs and they’ve avenged their family. Putting Jon on the throne is a risk. What if Dany finds out? What if she doesn’t drop her claim quietly? That risks another civil war. All because you just don’t like somebody? 

 

 

 

 

In this season every single thing seems to be either a tie-back or completely out of character. Dany burning a eunuch alive for plotting ticks both boxes, so naturally it will happen.

[House Cambodia]

1 minute ago, Erkan12 said:

Why turn Dany into such a narcissist? I'm super disappointed in that. Her hubris cost her Rhaegal, and Missandei. 

Sorry, some posters just don't get the fundamentals of the whole story. The Targaryans see themselves as born to rule. Viserys was overt in his belief, and Dany soon took on board that she was born to rule Westeros very early on. Look how the Targaryens are portrayed physically, white beyond white, eyes so blue they're purple! They are Aryans. They keep the bloodline so pure they have children with their siblings rather than pollute their blood.

A poster above never even noticed the Dothraki are coloured savages, moulded on Genghis Khan's Mongol hordes (known as the Golden Horde) with a bit of savage red injun thrown in. The Unsullied are clones from the same ethnicity - all brown skinned. The coloured races are savages and slaves. The Aryan goddess believes herself their maternal natural ruler.

The writers didn't 'turn' Dany into a narcissist - it's a fundamental aspect of her character based on centuries of genetics.

[Saturno]

Well, I don't think a marriage can solve the problem because the North does not want to be a part of the 7K even with Jon as King. The only solution IMHO is to grant independence to the North.

[King Perkis]

13 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

 

In fact, it’s more that people are racist and didn’t like seeing the Dothraki and Unsullied that were of different skin color than them.

Or it could be that the North literally do not like outsiders, which has been repeated in every book written on Westeros.  Has very little to do with racism.

 

[Erkan12]

34 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Sorry, some posters just don't get the fundamentals of the whole story. The Targaryans see themselves as born to rule. Viserys was overt in his belief, and Dany soon took on board that she was born to rule Westeros very early on. Look how the Targaryens are portrayed physically, white beyond white, eyes so blue they're purple! They are Aryans. They keep the bloodline so pure they have children with their siblings rather than pollute their blood.

A poster above never even noticed the Dothraki are coloured savages, moulded on Genghis Khan's Mongol hordes (known as the Golden Horde) with a bit of savage red injun thrown in. The Unsullied are clones from the same ethnicity - all brown skinned. The coloured races are savages and slaves. The Aryan goddess believes herself their maternal natural ruler.

The writers didn't 'turn' Dany into a narcissist - it's a fundamental aspect of her character based on centuries of genetics.

I didn't say that LOL, you take the wrong quote.

[Ser Lepus]

16 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

So it’s become extremely apparent that the Starks and Tyrion are plotting to declare Jon King. This is clearly the main twist.

Iam truly lost for words. Sansa and Arya were genuinely all for not marching south to fight Cersei. After Dany lost Jorah and most of her army helping the living? Scum. Absolute scum. It’s beyond contempt. To have no empathy for somebody who has helped you and whose only condition was that you do something you wanted to do anyway.

Why are they making a power play? They’ve won. Winterfell is theirs and they’ve avenged their family. Putting Jon on the throne is a risk. What if Dany finds out? What if she doesn’t drop her claim quietly? That risks another civil war. All because you just don’t like somebody? 

 

 

 

 

Sansa is a disciple of Littlefinger, and Arya a Faceless Woman... they don't care much for honor nowadays....

As ruthless pragmatist politicians, they would be justified into refusing to pay back for Dany's help, if they could get away with it, but... could they get away with it...?

What if they refuse to help Dany? Do they really think Dany will go away peacefully? She has two freaking dragons right there? She can burn Winterfell to cinders!

And even if she did, what do they think will happen afterwards? Do they think that the winner of the war for the Iron Throne will leave them alone?

As for putting Jon on the Iron Throne, forget about it. Nobody will ever believe he is a secret Targayren (except they will do because plot, but logically speaking, people shouldn't believe it...).

 

 

[Tyrion1991]

1 hour ago, King Perkis said:

What more did she sacrifice?  The episode showed everyone (North, Eryie, Wildlings, Unsullied Dothraki) losing half their forces in the fight?

Well, let’s ignore the previous 6 seasons. Her half at the Battle of Winterfell was much larger than anyone else’s. She also lost Jorah. Plus her dragons were vital to holding off the dead. Jon even tells Sansa, at least twice that they would have lost without Dany and even Arya (who killed the NK) agreed that they wouldn’t have won without Danys army. So they’re admitting she has sacrificed more than anyone else, they just inexplicably don’t like her for some increasingly bizarre reason.

Danys statement that people this side of the narrow sea have never looked at her the way used to in Essos is incredibly telling. You are claiming that you can save the world and that doesn’t earn you any goodwill? I can’t believe that. There is nothing else Dany can do to win Westeros over. She has sacrificed more than anyone else and has done more than anyone to ensure victory against the Night King. If those don’t endear the people of Westeros then clearly there nothing else for it.

 

[King Jon Snow Stark]

3 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

As for putting Jon on the Iron Throne, forget about it. Nobody will ever believe he is a secret Targayren (except they will do because plot, but logically speaking, people shouldn't believe it...).

That is the most annoying part about the episode. Arya and Sansa believing is fine. But Tyrion and Varys should not. 

[Tyrion1991]

7 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

Sansa is a disciple of Littlefinger, and Arya a Faceless Woman... they don't care much for honor nowadays....

As ruthless pragmatist politicians, they would be justified into refusing to pay back for Dany's help, if they could get aways with it, but... could they get away with it...?

What if they refuse to help Dany? Do they really thing Dany will go away peacefully? She has two freaking dragons right there? She can burn Winterfell to cinders!

And even if she did, what do they think will happen afterwards? Do they think that the winner of the war for the Iron Throne will leave them alone?

As for putting Jon on the Iron Throne, forget about it. Nobody will ever believe he is a secret Targayren (except they will do because plot, but logically speaking, people shouldn't believe it...).

 

 

 

It’s been depicted as if everyone will believe it without question.