Why are they plotting a coup?

[Green Knight]

4 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

 

Uhm......did you both miss this conversation from S8E1?

Davos proposes a proposal between Dany & Jon...

And I'm pretty sure this is likely an extension of that same idea (the last thing Jorah says to her), which is why Dany goes to speak to Sansa immediately afterwards in S8E2.

Jorah advises Dany

Also, why would Jon be bothered Dany is his Aunt, when no one else in Westeros would care, and his own grandparents were first cousins, as are half the population? 

 

Isn’t that what I said? Why would it bother him? 

As far as the marriage thing they sure are taking their time and being awfully lackluster about it if that’s all the talk there is. And all Jorah did was to advise danaerys  to mend fences with Sansa. As a matter of fact they seem to be going the other way with it as though marriage would b a problem which is just piss poor writing. Shouldn't be a problem whatsoever. Matter of fact it would solve everything. 

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

10 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Well in season 7 most of that advice fell into “burn everything” and “oh please think of the children!”. This is a moral dilemma of ends justify the means, not a technical discussion is tactics.

Yes Daenerys played with the beggar children of Pentos whilst Jon beat up peasants who called him a bastard. It took quite a few good men clipping his ears for him to not be a jerk. Kind of.

That’s the problem. She needs to have a technical discussion of the tactics. She was specifically advised by Tyrion not to burn the Tarlys, and she ignored him and now it’s biting her in the ass with Sam. 

She was told not to crucify the Good Masters, and she did anyway.

Jorah flat out told her to cut her losses in Essos and sail for Westeros ASAP, and she insisted she knew what was best. 

She has to learn that she can’t govern in a vacuum. She’s told to burn everything because that’s what she wants to hear.  

[divica]

3 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

That’s the problem. She needs to have a technical discussion of the tactics. She was specifically advised by Tyrion not to burn the Tarlys, and she ignored him and now it’s biting her in the ass with Sam. 

She was told not to crucify the Good Masters, and she did anyway.

Jorah flat out told her to cut her losses in Essos and sail for Westeros ASAP, and she insisted she knew what was best. 

She has to learn that she can’t govern in a vacuum. She’s told to burn everything because that’s what she wants to hear.  

I think it will be interesting to see what will be her reaction after she conquers KL. If people don t want her there because she killed a bunch of innocents what will her do?

[Ser Lepus]

2 minutes ago, divica said:

I think it will be interesting to see what will be her reaction after she conquers KL. If people don t want her there because she killed a bunch of innocents what will her do?

Recite her titles and insist that the throne is hers? 

But its true that she has never been without many fanatically devoted supporters since she awoke the dragons... she will feel disoriented and lost if surrounded by people who either oppose her rule or will support her only in exchange for a reward...

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

Just now, divica said:

I think it will be interesting to see what will be her reaction after she conquers KL. If people don t want her there because she killed a bunch of innocents what will her do?

Burn them, I guess? That’s what she does. She has the capacity to be a good and just ruler but just doesn’t seem to be willing or able to look at the big picture. 

I think it’s telling that Tyrion is losing faith in her.

He’s not the kind of person who’s going to swing straight to treason without a good reason, regardless of what Varys says or how much of a snotball Sansa is being to her. 

[Tyrion1991]

13 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

That’s the problem. She needs to have a technical discussion of the tactics. She was specifically advised by Tyrion not to burn the Tarlys, and she ignored him and now it’s biting her in the ass with Sam. 

She was told not to crucify the Good Masters, and she did anyway.

Jorah flat out told her to cut her losses in Essos and sail for Westeros ASAP, and she insisted she knew what was best. 

She has to learn that she can’t govern in a vacuum. She’s told to burn everything because that’s what she wants to hear.  

 

You can’t say for certain what would happen if Tarly had been pardoned. He would likely have continued to fight and caused more death until he eventually he had the politeness to die in battle.

The Good Masters were criminals. Apart from Tyrion’s trial no other ruler has used anything approaching the rule of law. You are saying that Dany did not apply due process but there isn’t a due process; only her discretion as an absolute monarch. 

In the show her time in Mereen works out pretty well for her all things considered. Also in the books she, kind of, has a “You were right moment” with Jorah when she sees a vision of him in ADWD in her final chapter.

She took Tyrion’s advice not to destroy the cities of the slavers. She has took his advice and accepted his plans this entire time. Her instinct has been to go for the kill.

She also took Jorahs advice to retain Tyrion as hand.

She also accepted Barristans counsel that her father was the Mad King.

She has accepted advice and does listen to others.

[Ser Lepus]

2 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

You can’t say for certain what would happen if Tarly had been pardoned. He would likely have continued to fight and caused more death until he eventually he had the politeness to die in battle.

The Good Masters were criminals. Apart from Tyrion’s trial no other ruler has used anything approaching the rule of law. You are saying that Dany did not apply due process but there isn’t a due process; only her discretion as an absolute monarch. 

In the show her time in Mereen works out pretty well for her all things considered.

She took Tyrion’s advice not to destroy the cities of the slavers. She has took his advice and accepted his plans this entire time. Her instinct has been to go for the kill.

She also took Jorahs advice to retain Tyrion as hand.

She also accepted Barristans counsel that her father was the Mad King.

She has accepted advice and does listen to others.

Ironically, if she had attacked KL and conquered it at once, using shock and awe tactics to make the city surrender, she would have shortened the war and minimized bloodshed... And if she had refused to send help to the North, her dragon wouldn't have become a zombie, the Wall would stand, and the Night King's army would remain at the other side forever...

Listening to her advisors had produced awful returns for her in Westeros...

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

1 minute ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

You can’t say for certain what would happen if Tarly had been pardoned. He would likely have continued to fight and caused more death until he eventually he had the politeness to die in battle.

The Good Masters were criminals. Apart from Tyrion’s trial no other ruler has used anything approaching the rule of law. You are saying that Dany did not apply due process but there isn’t a due process; only her discretion as an absolute monarch. 

In the show her time in Mereen works out pretty well for her all things considered.

She took Tyrion’s advice not to destroy the cities of the slavers. She has took his advice and accepted his plans this entire time. Her instinct has been to go for the kill.

She also took Jorahs advice to retain Tyrion as hand.

She also accepted Barristans counsel that her father was the Mad King.

She has accepted advice and does listen to others.

We’ll have to agree to disagree, I think.  Most rulers in the GOT universe arrest their criminals. She could have and possibly should have done that for the Tarlys. 

Meereen was a bit of a dumpster fire that was only contained by using her Unsullied as brute force to subdue the population, and ultimately cost her Barristan.  

She needs to learn to be a queen, not a conqueror.  

[Nightwish]

1 minute ago, Ser Lepus said:

Ironically, if she had attacked KL and conquered it at once, using shock and awe tactics to make the city surrender, she would have shortened the war and minimized bloodshed... And if she had refused to send help to the North, her dragon wouldn't have become a zombie, the Wall would stand, and the Night King's army would remain at the other side forever...

Listening to her advisors had produced awful returns for her in Westeros...

 Very true, despite this she listened to Jorah’s advice to be patient with Tyrion. Even in today’s workforce you get fired for far less mistakes.

[Gianna Dorenberg]

I'm more angry over how they've handled Dany as opposed to a coup.

And for the record, I have never been a fan of Dany. Always felt she had a dark side to her, that without her advisors and dragons she'd be nobody. BUT...for 8 seasons she has been many things, ignorant, impatient,  bad ruler etc. but she has always been inherently good as a person. The argument of her going mad queen cause she lost some people she cared about ? Come on. She lost more important people before. It's lazy writing. You can't have a character behave in such a way for 8 seasons then turn it all around in 1 episode. IT'S NOT EARNED. It's something you build...gradually. With a strong writing foundation. None of which is the case here.

THAT... is my biggest issue.

[MinscS2]

18 minutes ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

I'm more angry over how they've handled Dany as opposed to a coup.

And for the record, I have never been a fan of Dany. Always felt she had a dark side to her, that without her advisors and dragons she'd be nobody. BUT...for 8 seasons she has been many things, ignorant, impatient,  bad ruler etc. but she has always been inherently good as a person. The argument of her going mad queen cause she lost some people she cared about ? Come on. She lost more important people before. It's lazy writing. You can't have a character behave in such a way for 8 seasons then turn it all around in 1 episode. IT'S NOT EARNED. It's something you build...gradually. With a strong writing foundation. None of which is the case here.

THAT... is my biggest issue.

This.

For all her faults and mistakes, caring about the downtrodden has always been her common thread, ever since S1.
Seeing her going from having hints of madness to go all out "I don't care about innocents" in 5 minutes is simply put bad writing that makes no sense for the character. It would be like Jon suddenly starting to act dishonorable and use guile to get what he wants. It screams "plot device" and it ruins the character, not to mention the immersion. 

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

17 minutes ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

I'm more angry over how they've handled Dany as opposed to a coup.

And for the record, I have never been a fan of Dany. Always felt she had a dark side to her, that without her advisors and dragons she'd be nobody. BUT...for 8 seasons she has been many things, ignorant, impatient,  bad ruler etc. but she has always been inherently good as a person. The argument of her going mad queen cause she lost some people she cared about ? Come on. She lost more important people before. It's lazy writing. You can't have a character behave in such a way for 8 seasons then turn it all around in 1 episode. IT'S NOT EARNED. It's something you build...gradually. With a strong writing foundation. None of which is the case here.

THAT... is my biggest issue.

They’ve completely botched the whole Dany/Sansa/Jon narrative. Even if they’re setting up for some giant twist, there’s just been no reason for the way it’s been written.  

There were so many good opportunities for them to resolve the tension and instead they’ve ruined all three characters.  

[Little Bird of the North]

15 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

This.

For all her faults and mistakes, caring about the downtrodden has always been her common thread, ever since S1.
Seeing her going from having hints of madness to go all out "I don't care about innocents" in 5 minutes is simply put bad writing that makes no sense for the character. It would be like Jon suddenly starting to act dishonorable and use guile to get what he wants. It screams "plot device" and it ruins the character, not to mention the immersion. 

 

As much as I haven't been a fan of show Dany for a long, long while, and also feel that the way in which she talks about the white walker threat is very self-absorbed, I'm inclined to agree with most of this. This season in general has felt like such a sharp turn around for Dany's character and it comes across as really jarring; none of these sudden changes are earned or make sense, they've clearly just been written in at the last minute for plot convenience. It's really lazy. I know the show isn't the books, but considering George said the major points of the ending would be similar, I'm really hoping he does the Daenerys mad queen turn in a more gradual and sensible manner. At the moment though, I just can't see myself being a fan of the plot point at all no matter how it's handled. I quite like book Daenerys and I feel like having her go mad by the end is just a betrayal to a lot of the things her character has stood for and accomplished throughout the story. Mind you, this goes for some of her characterisation in the show as well, but it would hurt me less to watch it than read it, just because I don't care about the show's portrayal of her character nearly as much.

[starklover]

they would not trust dany at all. i

[starklover]

44 minutes ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

I'm more angry over how they've handled Dany as opposed to a coup.

And for the record, I have never been a fan of Dany. Always felt she had a dark side to her, that without her advisors and dragons she'd be nobody. BUT...for 8 seasons she has been many things, ignorant, impatient,  bad ruler etc. but she has always been inherently good as a person. The argument of her going mad queen cause she lost some people she cared about ? Come on. She lost more important people before. It's lazy writing. You can't have a character behave in such a way for 8 seasons then turn it all around in 1 episode. IT'S NOT EARNED. It's something you build...gradually. With a strong writing foundation. None of which is the case here.

THAT... is my biggest issue.

i doubt she would go full on mad queen. they want use to believe she will. tyrion and varys have a right to be worried but i dont think it will happen.

[starklover]

if i was sansa i will be telling everyone to get my brother on throne. 

[Gianna Dorenberg]

4 minutes ago, starklover said:

i doubt she would go full on mad queen. they want use to believe she will. tyrion and varys have a right to be worried but i dont think it will happen.

Have you seen the leaked spoiler that's going around ? If it's true, it's going to happen, sadly.

[Gianna Dorenberg]

1 minute ago, starklover said:

if i was sansa i will be telling everyone to get my brother on throne. 

Didn't Sansa already imply that ? When she told Tyrion ''What if there's someone better''. Implying she was proposing that Jon should be put on the Throne. Now that she knows the secret.

[starklover]

Just now, Gianna Dorenberg said:

Didn't Sansa already imply that ? When she told Tyrion ''What if there's someone better''. Implying she was proposing that Jon should be put on the Throne. Now that she knows the secret.

it seems that way. 

[starklover]

2 minutes ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

Have you seen the leaked spoiler that's going around ? If it's true, it's going to happen, sadly.

what leaked spoiler?