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Tyrion1991

Why are they plotting a coup?

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1 minute ago, Kristoff said:

Unless you're suggesting Ned pressed the claims of an infant than the war was very much over.

You're not getting it.

This is the same exact problem that happened in this episode.

The problem was never going to be Ned trying to press his infant nephew's claim. The problem would have been other people -- Targaryen loyalists or otherwise -- trying to press his infant nephew's claim.

 

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7 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

That doesn't prevent an invasion by sea which Cersei's forces have proven themselves to be fully capable of.

White Harbor isn't that easily invaded, and the Iron Islanders only tried when Robb went south. There's a reason why Cersei advised Joffrey against sending an invading army North.

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2 minutes ago, Anthony Pirtle said:

That's why I don't think he'd be a great monarch without Dany. He lacks a quality that people seem to judge harshly in her but is absolutely necessary for such a ruler - ambition. However, he is more just and temperate, and I assume that's what people like Sansa and Varys, who seem principally concerned about the welfare of the people, see in him. Like I said, I think they'd do better as a power couple.

More temperate than Dany? Yes. More just? No.

But, on a more personal note, that's one thing I have noticed in real life. Ambition of any kind -- pure or selfish/corrupted -- makes people very uncomfortable. Most people would rather ride the wave and roll with the punches and turn away from things they'd rather not deal with. When they cross paths with innovators, revolutionaries and go-getters, they get a little...testy.

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3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Which is absurd considering that in Essos they call her mother and considered her a divine saviour. It’s too sharp a contrast and it’s not adequately explained. The idea that nobody, even after she fought the Night King, would support her seems an extreme stretch of logic. 

here's the problem, Essos is the land of straw men

the two greatest forces there were a group of rapist pillaging savages and and unrealistic slavers and dany looked like a divine saviour next to those people for sure. but in westeros were there is no slavery and and rape is looked down on she doesn't really standout all that much. danny has always done really horrible things but because she did them to horrible straw men we could rasonlize those actions as being okay.

another problem here is this is a book plot line shoved into the show

the show has been far kinder to Danny then the books will be as at the end of the last book dany is over being a good queen and all out for "fire and blood". in the books is unlikely that she'll leave the city in good standing when she heads to westeros. where her army of rapists will likely live up too that stereotype causing lots of mayhem where ever they go on top of how Dany act. so the book we give us a logical reason for why they don't trust dany to rule you just cut that out of the show.

 

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What I don't understand is how there has yet to be a single character in the show who has discussed the idea of marriage  with Jon and Danny.  Even though it has made all the rational sense  in the world for both of them ,from the second they  first met and all the way up to this point in the story. When they first met Jon needed  more military power(dragons) to fight the others. While he needs Danny less so now...  A lot of his people  still have a problem with him bending the knee. Marrying Danny would solve this problem for him and avoid potential future conflicts. While Danny from the start has had little to no support among the people of the seven kingdoms. She also has the issue of being liked by the people. Even now pretty much all the support she has from the people of Westeros is contingent on Job supporting her. Marrying Jon not only makes it easy for the people to accept her it eliminates the chances of the north, Vale and river lands turning on her. It makes all the sense in the world for both of them. All this talk about who is fit and unfit to rule. The fact that not one of Jon or Dannys advisors has yet to bring up the idea of marriage  to them, it seems to me we should be talking about how Jon and Danny have a bunch of unfit advisors.  Yes, Tyrion at least thinks about it. But he has yet to discuss with either Jon or Danny. Will they necessarily agree to it ? No, but you at least discuss it with them.

So lets look at the reason now they say why them getting married wont ever work.  Jon might not want to be king? Well if he isn't willing to be king what are we even talking about. He will be unwilling to marry his aunt? well its your job to make him understand that there are bigger things on the line then his morality. If he is unwilling to move past the morality issue  when its necessary for peace then he is isn't really king Material right? Also the idea that he  cant handle  a strong willed women like Danny. So he  is supposed to make a good king but he cant handle being married to a strong women? Give me a break.... Then there is Danny's side of if she will be willing to share power? Well, you explain to her why marrying Jon will not only help her secure the throne but allow her to keep it and bring the realm long term  stability and peace. If she is unwilling to share any power when it makes all the sense in the world to do so..... well then you have your answer on if she is fit to rule or not.  It just really baffles me that no one has at the very least discussed this with Jon or Danny. Although to be fair if either show Jon or Danny were really top quality king or queen material they would have came to the realization of a marriage themselves.

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Posted (edited)

All the signs point to Dany becoming the mad queen, and honestly I dont blame her. I have never been a fan of hers but she literally sacrificed everything to save Westeros and they are still ungrates. That scene in the dining hall I felt for her because she was truly alone in a foreign land - everyone else had their families and friends. Now shes lost another child and her best friend... 

 

Burn them all I say!

Edited by MoonKnight21

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I think Jon is being set up for the throne because of the whole power hungry thing Daenerys has. She has said before andI quote: I will take what's mine with fire & blood. Someone that hungry for power can easily be corrupted by it. The Mad King didn't start off as a mad king. It was a process, which I think is what we've been shown with Dany. Burning people who won't bend the knee etc. Jon on the other hand might not want the Iron Throne but for a while now, people tend to follow him. Chosen as Lord Commander. Then declared King in The North. He is more if a natural leader than any birthright can prove. Daenerys has done a lot of good, but she always expected praise and loyalty. I remember her even saying she wanted to win the hearts of people so they see her as their queen. Jon has never had to make people see him as their leader, the people have always decided he was because of what he did. And he did all that without needing dragons to scare people into submission. 

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7 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

So it’s become extremely apparent that the Starks and Tyrion are plotting to declare Jon King. This is clearly the main twist.

I don't think so. Sansa is plotting the coup and wants Jon as King and avoid Queen Daenerys by all means. That is objectively clear and true.

Arya might be in on the conspiracy or she might have her own agenda. I suppose the latter. Arya is going to kill Cersei for finish her revenge. Maybe Arya wants to kill the Mountain, too, or works and -in-hand with Sandor Clegane.

I don't really see Tyrion plotting against Daenerys. The dialogue with Varys was more like in-between. Tyrion somehow conspired with Sansa and Varys, but Tyrion is still on Daenerys' side while Varys has turned to Jon Snow already.

7 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Sansa and Arya were genuinely all for not marching south to fight Cersei.

Not really. Sansa wanted to wait and let her people recover. That makes a lot of sense. Healing and replenishing. Sansa does not like Daenerys, but she didn't really say no to a war against Cersei, she just wanted to wait.

On the other hand, it makes sense for Sansa as Lady of Winterfell to set priorities to protect the North and not to let any more Northerners die.

7 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Why are they making a power play? They’ve won. Winterfell is theirs and they’ve avenged their family.

Well, Sansa explained it in E2: The Northerners do not want to bend the knee to a southern king or queen. They want to be independent, they suffered more than enough by far-away emperors. Lyanna Mormont several times phrased this very straight-forwardly. The motivation of the North is to be independent and free. Very similar to the Wildlings.

 

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Posted (edited)

It's the hypocrisy of the characters criticising Dany that gets to me

 

Sansa who gleefully caused someone to be ripped to pieces by dogs and had to be stopped from executing her sister by Branbot and who's pointless petty hostilty towards Dany could have ruined the alliance Jon had created against the White Walkers

 

Mass murderer Arya who apparently slaughtered an entire family and make said family eat their relatives.

Tyrion- the person who had no problem burning thousands alive with wildfire to keep the vile Joffrey on the throne

Varys- the genius who wanted the totally sane and rational Viserys to invade Westoros with a Dothraki army ( the Dothraki he now hates)

If Dany has to go mad I hope she has the good grace of roasting the above 4 before she is taken down.

Edited by Amaretto

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16 minutes ago, Amaretto said:

It's the hypocrisy of the characters criticising Dany that gets to me

 

Sansa who gleefully caused someone be ripped to pieces by dogs and had to be stopped from executing her sister by Branbot and who's pointless petty hostilty towards Dany could have ruined the alliance Jon had created against the White Walkers

 

Mass murderer Arya who apparently slaughtered an entire family and make said family eat their relatives.

Tyrion- the person who had no problem burning thousands alive with wildfire to keep the vile Joffrey on the throne

Varys- the genius who wanted the totally sane and rational Viserys to invade Westoros with a Dothraki army ( the Dothraki he now hates)

If Dany has to go mad I hope she has the good grace of roasting the above 4 before she is taken down.

Yeah, basically all that shows that this is *never* going to be the plot in the books.

Yes, there will be a war between Daenerys Targaryen and an 'Aegon Targaryen', but it is going to be a different Aegon, no?

And in the case of Aegon vs. Dany we will be seeing how mistrust, ambition, insufficient information, imagined or real issues, etc. will drive them all to war. But any of the people who fought together against the Others will *never* descend into distrust, schemes, and conspiracies. This just doesn't make any sense in a realistic scenario where the characters behave like real people.

If there is going to be some sort of cleanup mission after the War for the Dawn it won't involve infighting and scheming but rather dealing with the worst of the worst.

And all that we are getting here is basically a variation of the Second Dance between Dany and Aegon, with Cersei playing the role of Aegon in part, and Sansa effectively the role of Arianne Martell (who is likely going to play a major role in putting Aegon against Daenerys).

The idea that anybody among the saviors of mankind - i.e. the people fighting the Others - is going to be obsessed with petty things like claims and thrones thereafter is, quite frankly, absolutely nonsensical. Prior to that, yes, some such priorities might exist, and certainly: if the Others are defeated in a broad coalition of people some of which really hate each other not everything will be everybody's best friend thereafter.

But since there will likely be a clear chain of command and a hierarchical leadership among the people defeating the Others we will have a person in charge there. And that means the majority of the people there will be able to work with each other. Especially those closest to each other - Jon and Dany.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This just doesn't make any sense in a realistic scenario where the characters behave like real people.

Mistrust makes no sense? Greed for power or independence? 

Well, it does make a lot of sense. Contrary, it makes no sense to assume everyone loves each other just because they fought against a common enemy. Sansa wants an independent North, Daenerys wants to be Queen of everything. Of course there are tensions.

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7 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Yes it’s honourable to plot a coup against your ally who is the only reason you are still alive and sacrificed far more than any of your scum family. That is a betrayal of the worst magnitude. They are clearly in the wrong. Do you believe Barristan, Jorah and Missandei misjudged Dany?

I hope all the Starks die. It won’t happen. But I hope they do. I have lost any and all respect for them as characters. 

 

Just with a word; they are traitors. 

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5 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Mistrust makes no sense? Greed for power or independence? 

Well, it does make a lot of sense. Contrary, it makes no sense to assume everyone loves each other just because they fought against a common enemy. Sansa wants an independent North, Daenerys wants to be Queen of everything. Of course there are tensions.

But there is no reason that either character wants that so much, is there? It simply makes no sense.

Aegon Targaryen would be the rightful king of the North, too. There is going to be no independence for the North if he sits the Iron Throne, is there?

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon Targaryen would be the rightful king of the North, too. There is going to be no independence for the North if he sits the Iron Throne, is there?

A Northern King ruling the North is of course fine for the North.

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5 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

A Northern King ruling the North is of course fine for the North.

But it wouldn't be an independent North, would it?

This is all silly nonsense. Sansa has no reason to dislike or mistrust Dany, and if she were to accept Jon as ruler of all the Seven Kingdoms, the North included, then she should have literally no issues if Jon, who loves Dany, would sit at her side and represent the Northern interests there.

Sansa was never that petty. And she was never about the North. Her entire life she wanted to live at a splendid southern court and sit as queen beside a king. Her half-brother/cousin accomplishing that, ruling the Seven Kingdoms as prince or king consort at Dany's side, most definitely should fit that. In fact, she might even envy him for that, not fretting about basically nothing the entire time.

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Watch Dany’s facial expressions and listen to her tone when she pleads with Jon not to reveal his true identity to Sansa and Arya. She knows he really is Aegon, yet is jealous of the treatment he receives from the North the way she got the red carpet Essos. Her pleading starts off sincere and ends with a command and eye daggers. Dany has some crazy to her when she doesn’t get her way. Foolish not to rule jointly with Jon through marriage.

She’s so hellbent on this throne she marches/sails a depleted a tired army into a prepared force for the sake of trying to land a quick KO punch. Sansa’s suggestion on resting and recovering was sensible, and yet dismissed. They just beat the army of the dead, and she wants to run South for a chair that isn’t worth a darn.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But it wouldn't be an independent North, would it?

This is all silly nonsense. Sansa has no reason to dislike or mistrust Dany, and if she were to accept Jon as ruler of all the Seven Kingdoms, the North included, then she should have literally no issues if Jon, who loves Dany, would sit at her side and represent the Northern interests there.

Sansa was never that petty. And she was never about the North. Her entire life she wanted to live at a splendid southern court and sit as queen beside a king. Her half-brother/cousin accomplishing that, ruling the Seven Kingdoms as prince or king consort at Dany's side, most definitely should fit that. In fact, she might even envy him for that, not fretting about basically nothing the entire time.

Ugh, yes she has always been petty!!

And the Sansa we are seeing in the show is well advanced compared to the books.  At the identical stage between books and show she was very similar to the books still.  Comparing current show Sansa to current book Sansa is wrong IMO.

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5 minutes ago, Dragons dance with Wolves said:

Watch Dany’s facial expressions and listen to her tone when she pleads with Jon not to reveal his true identity to Sansa and Arya. She knows he really is Aegon, yet is jealous of the treatment he receives from the North the way she got the red carpet Essos. Her pleading starts off sincere and ends with a command and eye daggers. Dany has some crazy to her when she doesn’t get her way. Foolish not to rule jointly with Jon through marriage.

She’s so hellbent on this throne she marches/sails a depleted a tired army into a prepared force for the sake of trying to land a quick KO punch. Sansa’s suggestion on resting and recovering was sensible, and yet dismissed. They just beat the army of the dead, and she wants to run South for a chair that isn’t worth a darn.

Dany is obsessed and entitled.  I think the show has made that clear for a while now.  Her actions are in line with the personality they have created for her.

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22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

And all that we are getting here is basically a variation of the Second Dance between Dany and Aegon, with Cersei playing the role of Aegon in part, and Sansa effectively the role of Arianne Martell (who is likely going to play a major role in putting Aegon against Daenerys).

Finally someone who gets it... the title of the last book, the targ histories... It is all set up for the conflict between Jon and Dany for who has the better claim. It destroyed the families and the strength and number of dragons, but was ultimately resolved by marrying the greens and blacks together. 

They can't set up a believable reason for our main characters to split their alliances without the events of this episode.

This also feels like the split will ultimately be book canon.... whenever we get there.

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3 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Ugh, yes she has always been petty!!

And the Sansa we are seeing in the show is well advanced compared to the books.  At the identical stage between books and show she was very similar to the books still.  Comparing current show Sansa to current book Sansa is wrong IMO.

The Sansa in the show is not a consistently written character. She never was about the independence of the North. Even her claim that the North fought hard to regain independence is nonsense, considering the Boltons were Northmen, too. They toppled Ramsay, alright, but he was one of them. A fellow Northman.

Sansa is never going to rule anything in her own right in the books, by the way. She is still a minor and female. She is not suddenly going to be aged up three years. Even if she were end up becoming Lady of Winterfell she could not possibly determine policy all by herself. Even if the North were to accept the rule of a woman - not likely considering there was never a Ruling Lady of Winterfell nor a Queen Regnant in the North - they would not likely give a damn about the input of 13-year-old. She would be in need of a regent/protector/guardian until she was sixteen years old.

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