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Tyrion1991

Why are they plotting a coup?

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Dany spent 7 seasons talking about how legitimate she was and how the throne should be hers by birth right and now she is just gonna ignore a more legitimate heir to the throne, talk about hypocrisy.

She really has no honor, not that it surprise me though, she's the most self-entitled character in the show.

 

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2 minutes ago, PirateVergo said:

Dany spent 7 seasons talking about how legitimate she was and how the throne should be hers by birth right and now she is just gonna ignore a more legitimate heir to the throne, talk about hypocrisy.

She really has no honor, not that it surprise me though, she's the most self-entitled character in the show.

 

Super similar to her "break the wheel" concept which apparently involved ending the awful ways of the old ruling system with the shiny-new "bend the knee or die."

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5 minutes ago, PirateVergo said:

Dany spent 7 seasons talking about how legitimate she was and how the throne should be hers by birth right and now she is just gonna ignore a more legitimate heir to the throne, talk about hypocrisy.

She really has no honor, not that it surprise me though, she's the most self-entitled character in the show.

 

Of course she had a brother who came before her in the line of succession. He is airbrushed out of history now

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10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Sansa in the show is not a consistently written character. She never was about the independence of the North. Even her claim that the North fought hard to regain independence is nonsense, considering the Boltons were Northmen, too. They toppled Ramsay, alright, but he was one of them. A fellow Northman.

Sansa is never going to rule anything in her own right in the books, by the way. She is still a minor and female. She is not suddenly going to be aged up three years. Even if she were end up becoming Lady of Winterfell she could not possibly determine policy all by herself. Even if the North were to accept the rule of a woman - not likely considering there was never a Ruling Lady of Winterfell nor a Queen Regnant in the North - they would not likely give a damn about the input of 13-year-old. She would be in need of a regent/protector/guardian until she was sixteen years old.

That's my point in a nutshell.  In the books right now she isn't.  But when she returns to the North in the books, maybe she will be.  We don't know.

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Just now, Ser Gareth said:

That's my point in a nutshell.  In the books right now she isn't.  But when she returns to the North in the books, maybe she will be.  We don't know.

Even if she were - she would never have the political weight to influence political decisions on that grand a scale. She would still be a girl, not a woman grown. And she would certainly not represent the kind of strength the North needs in the thick of winter - strength to lead armies in battle, etc.

People would follow the male leader - Jon - and wherever he led. The idea that you can be used as political pawn against your will be scheming women doesn't carry very far in this world. And since there is literally no proof that Jon Snow is 'Aegon Targaryen' and no Targaryen loyalists in Winterfell, the idea that the truth about his parentage is suddenly going to force him to move against Dany against his will is ridiculous.

Especially since it is very obvious how Jon and Dany could prevent all of that - by marrying each other. Then they would have a united front. They rule together, make decisions together, and interact with their court only after they came to an understanding.

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I'm not sure for how many episodes we will discuss that no one is obliged to like Dany (in fact only for two more episodes at max). Sansa (and Arya too) is not obliged to like Dany, she probably sees through her mask and realizes that she just wants the Throne no matter the cost and it's understandable that Sansa doesn't want to give up North.

Dany doesn't "deserve" a throne just because her battle tactics sucked and she lost her army and a friend. Sansa lost her friend Theon and a big part of her army (the Vale - even in the latest Ep they acknowledged that Sansa de facto controls the Vale army). Shouldn't she be given a crown too?

Varys sees inside Dany's mind too and he is afraid that she will become a true mad queen, another tyrant who will destroy the people and the kingdom. Dany has been showing tendencies towards this from the very first season. She's always been very unpredictable and now she is in a very difficult position and there is no guarantee what she will do next. Dany could be a good ruler but she also could also sink into madness as she grows older. Jon on the other hand seems a like a great potential ruler. If I was Varys and I had the power to decided if Dany or Jon will be the ruler (not saying that Varys truly has this kind of power), I would definitely vote for Jon.

After Dany losing her dragon and Missandei last episode, I wouldn't be too surprised if she truly loses it.

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I feel like many people miss the key issue with Daenerys. The writing for the show certainly has issues, but I think this has always been the destination for Daenerys' story.

Daenerys' path to the Iron Throne has had many obstacles that have veiled her true intentions. She liberates the slaves in Meereen, sails to Westeros fights off the dead and now is at the gates of Kings Landing ready to get rid of Cersei. The thing is this though, What if Yunkai and Meereen weren't full of slaves? What if the dead weren't about to start an attack? What if it was a good ruler on the Iron Throne?

Daenerys goal from the beginning has been to invade and conquer Westeros. If Tommen was on the throne she'd start a war. Her justification for doing this is that she is the rightful Queen, but now that she knows that Jon is the true heir she isn't happy.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Sansa in the show is not a consistently written character. She never was about the independence of the North. Even her claim that the North fought hard to regain independence is nonsense, considering the Boltons were Northmen, too. They toppled Ramsay, alright, but he was one of them. A fellow Northman.

Sansa is never going to rule anything in her own right in the books, by the way. She is still a minor and female. She is not suddenly going to be aged up three years. Even if she were end up becoming Lady of Winterfell she could not possibly determine policy all by herself. Even if the North were to accept the rule of a woman - not likely considering there was never a Ruling Lady of Winterfell nor a Queen Regnant in the North - they would not likely give a damn about the input of 13-year-old. She would be in need of a regent/protector/guardian until she was sixteen years old.

Eh, Boltons were playing to the both sides, Roose openly acted against the Iron Throne by buying Sansa from Littlefinger but he still didn't call himself king in the north, he was still the ''warden of the north'' , Ramsay as well, if anything happens they would bend the knee to the South again, they didn't care about the independence of the North at all. They were the ''Warden'' and it means they were still not independent.

Even if Roose or Ramsay called themselves king, they were still not fit the rule the North anyway, Ramsay is a kinslayer and Roose is a kingslayer. They are traitorous as hell.

Edited by Erkan12

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2 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

Eh, Boltons were playing to the both sides, Roose openly acted against the Iron Throne by buying Sansa from Littlefinger but he still didn't call himself king in the north, he was still the ''warden of the north'' , Ramsay as well, if anything happens they would bend the knee to the South again, they didn't care about the independence of the North at all. They were the ''Warden'' and it means they were still not independent.

Even if Roose or Ramsay called themselves king, they were still not fit the rule the North anyway, Ramsay is a kinslayer and Roose is a kingslayer. They are traitorous as hell.

Sure, they are all traitors and stuff, but they still were Northmen, right? Thus the North was effectively ruled by Northmen since Robb got killed. No Lannister soldier accompanied or fought with Roose or Ramsay. And the war to destroy the Boltons was a fight for survival/revenge war, not an independence war.

Also, Sansa actually is Lady Bolton by marriage, a woman who willingly married Ramsay Bolton and thus didn't exactly care about 'Northern independence' back then, did she?

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4 minutes ago, A Dance with Davos said:

I feel like many people miss the key issue with Daenerys. The writing for the show certainly has issues, but I think this has always been the destination for Daenerys' story.

Daenerys' path to the Iron Throne has had many obstacles that have veiled her true intentions. She liberates the slaves in Meereen, sails to Westeros fights off the dead and now is at the gates of Kings Landing ready to get rid of Cersei. The thing is this though, What if Yunkai and Meereen weren't full of slaves? What if the dead weren't about to start an attack? What if it was a good ruler on the Iron Throne?

Daenerys goal from the beginning has been to invade and conquer Westeros. If Tommen was on the throne she'd start a war. Her justification for doing this is that she is the rightful Queen, but now that she knows that Jon is the true heir she isn't happy.

Even Robert (who apparently was not a mean person) had put assassins to kill her. Why and how could she rest assure that these people wouldn't hunt her down for the rest of her life?

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1 minute ago, Nightwish said:

Even Robert (who apparently was not a mean person) had put assassins to kill her. Why and how could she rest assure that these people wouldn't hunt her down for the rest of her life?

 

She can't, but the goal for her and Viserys was always to take the IT. It has never been about doing what is best for the people. As a whole Daenerys has been pretty ignorant of everything happening in Westeros whilst in Essos. So whether it was Joffrey or Tommen on the throne it makes no difference to her.

 

Hopefully this is the angle they are pulling with Sansa. As from this viewpoint Sansa doubting Daenerys is totally justified. She came to start a war, it just so happens there's a lot of bad people running around Westeros which distracted from this important fact about Daenerys.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, A Dance with Davos said:

 

She can't, but the goal for her and Viserys was always to take the IT. It has never been about doing what is best for the people. As a whole Daenerys has been pretty ignorant of everything happening in Westeros whilst in Essos. So whether it was Joffrey or Tommen on the throne it makes no difference to her.

 

Hopefully this is the angle they are pulling with Sansa. As from this viewpoint Sansa doubting Daenerys is totally justified. She came to start a war, it just so happens there's a lot of bad people running around Westeros which distracted from this important fact about Daenerys.

And what is wrong with her wanting to take the throne back especially from a family that hunted her down even in exile?

No, it's just not so happens... She doesn't attack a random family. She wants to deal with the people that hunted her and her brother down and tried to poisoned her while being pregnant. 

Edited by Nightwish

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They could be doing the same plot line Wheel of Time used for Rand where he comes close to using the Sword (forget the name sorry) to wipe out the Seanchan cities. But he relents. Dany could do the same here.

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52 minutes ago, Dragons dance with Wolves said:

Watch Dany’s facial expressions and listen to her tone when she pleads with Jon not to reveal his true identity to Sansa and Arya. She knows he really is Aegon, yet is jealous of the treatment he receives from the North the way she got the red carpet Essos. Her pleading starts off sincere and ends with a command and eye daggers. Dany has some crazy to her when she doesn’t get her way. Foolish not to rule jointly with Jon through marriage.

She’s so hellbent on this throne she marches/sails a depleted a tired army into a prepared force for the sake of trying to land a quick KO punch. Sansa’s suggestion on resting and recovering was sensible, and yet dismissed. They just beat the army of the dead, and she wants to run South for a chair that isn’t worth a darn.

Honestly this was the part for me that told me all I need to know about Daenerys. She's entitled and jealous and doesn't know how to handle it. She didn't give two shits about the fact that half of these troops have just been through 2 battles (Battle of the Bastards and the War of Dawn 2.0) and then proclaims to Varys that she's willing to kill innocents in Kings Landing because "My purpose in life is to remove Tyrants, no matter the cost"... Well the cost this time is her becoming a tyrant herself. Nobody in that war council said that they weren't willing to help her remove Cersei from power, but it made no sense to not rest at least a little while. Hell even Rhegal had holes in his wings and was barely flying straight. She is so hellbent that she's willing to drag everyone else down into a war that's quite possibly not winnable at this point. 

She repeatedly feels the need to remind everyone that she is the Queen. The scene with Gendry was awkward as hell. She starts by reminding him that it was his family who overthrew hers and tried to kill her (something obviously he had nothing to do with) and then turns it around and says "you should be the lord of Storms End"...Like what kind of backhanded compliment was that? How about just telling him she appreciates him and that she wants to legitimize him for doing good. Instead she has to make her proposal look better by downing his family first, so that everyone can see "what a gracious queen" she is. 

And lets think back to previous seasons of what she's done when someone she cared for died. When Selmy died she fed the masters to her dragons indiscriminately. No rhyme or reason (she says to find out who the harpies were, although Varys accomplishes this without bloodshed), just death becasue she was angry. What do you think she's going to do now that Jorah, Rhegal, and Missandei have all died all in such a short timespan? I'm not saying she's gone mad or is going mad - I'm saying she's always had this side to her and it's always been the reason I think she would make a terrible monarch. Now some of her advisors are starting to see it as well. 

Sansa and Arya had every right to question her. She's been nothing but pompous since arriving in Winterfel and only a food with blinders on can't see that. 

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2 minutes ago, Every Last Chicken said:

Honestly this was the part for me that told me all I need to know about Daenerys. She's entitled and jealous and doesn't know how to handle it. She didn't give two shits about the fact that half of these troops have just been through 2 battles (Battle of the Bastards and the War of Dawn 2.0) and then proclaims to Varys that she's willing to kill innocents in Kings Landing because "My purpose in life is to remove Tyrants, no matter the cost"... . 

 

Varys and Tyrion's plan is to starve Kings Landing until Cersei submits (like she give a damn if the citizen starve to death)

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Every Last Chicken said:

Honestly this was the part for me that told me all I need to know about Daenerys. She's entitled and jealous and doesn't know how to handle it. She didn't give two shits about the fact that half of these troops have just been through 2 battles (Battle of the Bastards and the War of Dawn 2.0) and then proclaims to Varys that she's willing to kill innocents in Kings Landing because "My purpose in life is to remove Tyrants, no matter the cost"... Well the cost this time is her becoming a tyrant herself. Nobody in that war council said that they weren't willing to help her remove Cersei from power, but it made no sense to not rest at least a little while. Hell even Rhegal had holes in his wings and was barely flying straight. She is so hellbent that she's willing to drag everyone else down into a war that's quite possibly not winnable at this point. 

She repeatedly feels the need to remind everyone that she is the Queen. The scene with Gendry was awkward as hell. She starts by reminding him that it was his family who overthrew hers and tried to kill her (something obviously he had nothing to do with) and then turns it around and says "you should be the lord of Storms End"...Like what kind of backhanded compliment was that? How about just telling him she appreciates him and that she wants to legitimize him for doing good. Instead she has to make her proposal look better by downing his family first, so that everyone can see "what a gracious queen" she is. 

And lets think back to previous seasons of what she's done when someone she cared for died. When Selmy died she fed the masters to her dragons indiscriminately. No rhyme or reason (she says to find out who the harpies were, although Varys accomplishes this without bloodshed), just death becasue she was angry. What do you think she's going to do now that Jorah, Rhegal, and Missandei have all died all in such a short timespan? I'm not saying she's gone mad or is going mad - I'm saying she's always had this side to her and it's always been the reason I think she would make a terrible monarch. Now some of her advisors are starting to see it as well. 

Sansa and Arya had every right to question her. She's been nothing but pompous since arriving in Winterfel and only a food with blinders on can't see that. 

 

Cersei gathers everyone inside so she can burn them all and put the blame on Dany. Varys hasn't told us a better plan to take Kings Landing without innocents to pay the price. Either this would be fire or starvation. And he can't because Cersei is implicating innocents making it impossible for another way around it.  

 

Edited by Nightwish

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12 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

Varys and Tyrion's plan is to starve Kings Landing until Cersei submits (like she give a damn if the citizen starve to death)

They're going off of previous riots and knowledge of how fickle the citizens can be. Starving the people might sound cruel but hungry people take action to not be hungry anymore. Jon even said to wait for them to get there and they could set up a blockade and wait them out and make Cersei's army come out of the capital. Cersei may not care about the people but a starving mob is going to be hard for her to handle with her army outside the capital. Unfortunately I feel Daenerys is letting her temper cloud her judgement and is going to allow it to take the lives of not only her own soldiers but lots of innocents. 

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20 minutes ago, Every Last Chicken said:

They're going off of previous riots and knowledge of how fickle the citizens can be. Starving the people might sound cruel but hungry people take action to not be hungry anymore. Jon even said to wait for them to get there and they could set up a blockade and wait them out and make Cersei's army come out of the capital. Cersei may not care about the people but a starving mob is going to be hard for her to handle with her army outside the capital. Unfortunately I feel Daenerys is letting her temper cloud her judgement and is going to allow it to take the lives of not only her own soldiers but lots of innocents. 

Too bad they didn't do this when Dany first arrived in Westeros and still had Highgarden, Dorne, Yara's navy, Unsullied, Dothraki and 3 live dragons.  It would  have been over in a fortnight.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, they are all traitors and stuff, but they still were Northmen, right? Thus the North was effectively ruled by Northmen since Robb got killed. No Lannister soldier accompanied or fought with Roose or Ramsay. And the war to destroy the Boltons was a fight for survival/revenge war, not an independence war.

Also, Sansa actually is Lady Bolton by marriage, a woman who willingly married Ramsay Bolton and thus didn't exactly care about 'Northern independence' back then, did she?

First things first,

They had to beat Boltons first.

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