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Tyrion1991

Why are they plotting a coup?

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So if you sack a city with an army armed with swords and thousands of innocents get slaughtered/raped, as happened during Robert's rebellion and would have happened if Stannis's army breached the walls/gate you are sane.  But if you do the same thing with an army and a dragon that means you cuckoo for cocoa puffs. Do I have this right?

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10 hours ago, Green Knight said:

I don’t think not wanting another a mad queen on the throne classifies them as such.  

There's zero evidence Daenerys would be a mad queen.

Yeah, she has enacted harsh justice a couple of times, but each time it actually was a form of justice: by the standards of her place and time, it wasn't actually even particularly harsh. She has said over and over she wants to make the world a better place, and has acted as if it is true. She dispensed justice to the best of her capabilities and even locked her own dragons up when they proved a danger to common folk.

The people who know her best love her and believe in her. It's people who have only just met her, and who arguably have selfish motives, who feel and act otherwise.

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2 hours ago, PirateVergo said:

Dany spent 7 seasons talking about how legitimate she was and how the throne should be hers by birth right and now she is just gonna ignore a more legitimate heir to the throne, talk about hypocrisy.

She really has no honor, not that it surprise me though, she's the most self-entitled character in the show.

 

Book Daenerys will ask for proof of Jon's claim, and if she sees it, she will accept it. Anything else would be utterly inconsistent with her character.

This TV show is still fun to watch, but plot-wise, character-wise and consistency-wise it has gone completely off the rails since it passed the books. I hope to god the books get finished so we can get the real story. I put little faith into the one we're watching as representing Martin's intent.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

So if you sack a city with an army armed with swords and thousands of innocents get slaughtered/raped, as happened during Robert's rebellion and would have happened if Stannis's army breached the walls/gate you are sane.  But if you do the same thing with an army and a dragon that means you cuckoo for cocoa puffs. Do I have this right?

Yes apparently, Dani should just camp outside the walls of kings landing  making a silent protest and beg Cersei to release the crowd. Meanwhile her army can be wiped out from the Golden Conpany and her dragon chased and killed by Euron. Then Varys would come and declare John king because he was the quietest boy of all while they played chess outside of Kings landing, thus being a better ruler. All this so Dany can escape the mad queen title which she is gonna get nevertheless after such crazy script. 

Edited by Nightwish

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I didn't really like the way it was set up tbh, really shoehorned in. Sansa could last long at all to spill it and the only way that makes sense if shes got eyes on the prize for herself. Did Jon use Bran telling them so he could get a childlike out of jail card with Dany by saying, I didn't tell them, Bran did?

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7 minutes ago, chatty83 said:

I didn't really like the way it was set up tbh, really shoehorned in. Sansa could last long at all to spill it and the only way that makes sense if shes got eyes on the prize for herself. Did Jon use Bran telling them so he could get a childlike out of jail card with Dany by saying, I didn't tell them, Bran did?

Bran can explain it better. He has the visions and they would believe it coming for him. 

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6 hours ago, House Of Wolves said:

What I don't understand is how there has yet to be a single character in the show who has discussed the idea of marriage  with Jon and Danny.  Even though it has made all the rational sense  in the world for both of them ,from the second they  first met and all the way up to this point in the story. When they first met Jon needed  more military power(dragons) to fight the others. While he needs Danny less so now...  A lot of his people  still have a problem with him bending the knee. Marrying Danny would solve this problem for him and avoid potential future conflicts. While Danny from the start has had little to no support among the people of the seven kingdoms. She also has the issue of being liked by the people. Even now pretty much all the support she has from the people of Westeros is contingent on Job supporting her. Marrying Jon not only makes it easy for the people to accept her it eliminates the chances of the north, Vale and river lands turning on her. It makes all the sense in the world for both of them. All this talk about who is fit and unfit to rule. The fact that not one of Jon or Dannys advisors has yet to bring up the idea of marriage  to them, it seems to me we should be talking about how Jon and Danny have a bunch of unfit advisors.  Yes, Tyrion at least thinks about it. But he has yet to discuss with either Jon or Danny. Will they necessarily agree to it ? No, but you at least discuss it with them.

So lets look at the reason now they say why them getting married wont ever work.  Jon might not want to be king? Well if he isn't willing to be king what are we even talking about. He will be unwilling to marry his aunt? well its your job to make him understand that there are bigger things on the line then his morality. If he is unwilling to move past the morality issue  when its necessary for peace then he is isn't really king Material right? Also the idea that he  cant handle  a strong willed women like Danny. So he  is supposed to make a good king but he cant handle being married to a strong women? Give me a break.... Then there is Danny's side of if she will be willing to share power? Well, you explain to her why marrying Jon will not only help her secure the throne but allow her to keep it and bring the realm long term  stability and peace. If she is unwilling to share any power when it makes all the sense in the world to do so..... well then you have your answer on if she is fit to rule or not.  It just really baffles me that no one has at the very least discussed this with Jon or Danny. Although to be fair if either show Jon or Danny were really top quality king or queen material they would have came to the realization of a marriage themselves.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! 

This is where the show really goes off the rails. It’s a plot device. Nothing more and nothing less. It’s so obvious that their marriage is the solution that it it is painful to watch. And John being unwilling to marry her because she is his aunt? Really!? C’mon man. He’s willing to bed her ten ways from Sunday but marriage is where he draws the line? Please....

 

 

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44 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

So if you sack a city with an army armed with swords and thousands of innocents get slaughtered/raped, as happened during Robert's rebellion and would have happened if Stannis's army breached the walls/gate you are sane.  But if you do the same thing with an army and a dragon that means you cuckoo for cocoa puffs. Do I have this right?

She is not mad for wanting to torch the red keep and all of kings landing at this point, its' understandable realy, she is mad for that chair though. She was practicaly begging Jon not to tell anyone of his heritage, that scene was very disturbing, she said she loves him, found a member of her family when she thought she is the only one left, didn't propose marriage, no, she only thought about that damned chair, and with such mad passion...

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I don't think she's going mad, she is getting mightily pissed off though, shes just lost another one of her dragons and her a close advisor and friend, who wouldn't want to depose torture and kill Cersei and Euron at that point?.

She was foolish not letting the armies rest though and does seem obsessed with getting that chair without anymore delay, shes waited this long for it, what's a little bit longer.

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11 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Iam sorry. Iam sorry. You think Dany doesn’t have cause to be angry at Cersei right now?  Being angry when somebody cuts your best friends head off does not make you insane.

How is Arya not insane? She put a man in a pie and fed that to his father! Sansa fed a man to his dogs. These are two great hypocrites to point at Dany doing nasty things like burning Lannister soldiers...

I’ve run out of “likes” today but wanted to like this! Piss poor writing on the show’s part to make Dany the “Mad Queen” because she’s upset and full of rage. And to take other great female characters and write them so shallow (perhaps not Arya, more Sansa) that we think she’s being bitter and short-sighted? Weren’t we just rooting for Dany in the war for Winterfell?!

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I also do not think Dany is going crazy. She's angry, grieving, and ready for some serious revenge, but not crazy. In fact she's probably thinking she was crazy for not torching KL like she wanted to in the first place, last season. She's been listening to her advisers' level-headed advice and it has gotten her nowhere, and now she's probably regretting not following Olenna Tyrell's advice to "be a dragon."

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2 hours ago, Every Last Chicken said:

Honestly this was the part for me that told me all I need to know about Daenerys. She's entitled and jealous and doesn't know how to handle it. She didn't give two shits about the fact that half of these troops have just been through 2 battles (Battle of the Bastards and the War of Dawn 2.0) and then proclaims to Varys that she's willing to kill innocents in Kings Landing because "My purpose in life is to remove Tyrants, no matter the cost"... Well the cost this time is her becoming a tyrant herself. Nobody in that war council said that they weren't willing to help her remove Cersei from power, but it made no sense to not rest at least a little while. Hell even Rhegal had holes in his wings and was barely flying straight. She is so hellbent that she's willing to drag everyone else down into a war that's quite possibly not winnable at this point. 

She repeatedly feels the need to remind everyone that she is the Queen. The scene with Gendry was awkward as hell. She starts by reminding him that it was his family who overthrew hers and tried to kill her (something obviously he had nothing to do with) and then turns it around and says "you should be the lord of Storms End"...Like what kind of backhanded compliment was that? How about just telling him she appreciates him and that she wants to legitimize him for doing good. Instead she has to make her proposal look better by downing his family first, so that everyone can see "what a gracious queen" she is. 

And lets think back to previous seasons of what she's done when someone she cared for died. When Selmy died she fed the masters to her dragons indiscriminately. No rhyme or reason (she says to find out who the harpies were, although Varys accomplishes this without bloodshed), just death becasue she was angry. What do you think she's going to do now that Jorah, Rhegal, and Missandei have all died all in such a short timespan? I'm not saying she's gone mad or is going mad - I'm saying she's always had this side to her and it's always been the reason I think she would make a terrible monarch. Now some of her advisors are starting to see it as well. 

Sansa and Arya had every right to question her. She's been nothing but pompous since arriving in Winterfel and only a food with blinders on can't see that. 

I wish I could give you a thousand trophies for that post...

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I'd just like to point out that Asha wanted to hit Kings Landing with everything they had including the dragons yet I do not recall one person on the show questioning her sanity. I am pretty sure Olenna was board with that plan as well.

So yes this whole Dany going "mad" thing is contrived and stupid.

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33 minutes ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

I' m loving the fact that Dany is going batshit, just because all of the fanboys caliming for years that there is no indication for it whatsoever :D

This^ :agree:

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Book Daenerys will ask for proof of Jon's claim, and if she sees it, she will accept it. Anything else would be utterly inconsistent with her character.

This TV show is still fun to watch, but plot-wise, character-wise and consistency-wise it has gone completely off the rails since it passed the books. I hope to god the books get finished so we can get the real story. I put little faith into the one we're watching as representing Martin's intent.

We are watching a very expensive fanfic. I have felt this way since Littlefinger led Sansa to Winterfell. In earlier seasons they could tinker with the story but at worst it was just annoying to book readers. The essence of the tale was still there but the Stark kids and Dany are such a fundamental core of the story that you really shouldn't change them much, let alone as drastically as D&D have done. This is fanfic.

Edited by Gogossos

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11 minutes ago, Gogossos said:

We are watching a very expensive fanfic. I have felt this way since Littlefinger led Sansa to Winterfell. In earlier seasons they could tinker with the story but at worst it was just annoying to book readers. The essence of the tale was still there but the Stark kids and Dany are such a fundamental core of the story that you really shouldn't change them much, let alone as drastically as D&D have done. This is fanfic.

Yes! I was saying this  - so much feels like fanfic right now. Ugh, even the Arya/Gendry scene “I’m no lady,” just fell flat. 

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11 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

Haven’t seen that explicitly stated by anyone. It’s been spelled out pretty clearly that the writers are TRYING to paint Dany in a bad light when she’s done nothing wrong and has been a good ruler for 7 seasons prior. 

In fact, it’s more that people are racist and didn’t like seeing the Dothraki and Unsullied that were of different skin color than them.

Yes!! The only thing I can see on the show is that the Northerners seem nationalistic and distrustful - and some whiffs of racism, and that we’re supposed to believe Dany seems tyrannical. 

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

I'd just like to point out that Asha wanted to hit Kings Landing with everything they had including the dragons yet I do not recall one person on the show questioning her sanity. I am pretty sure Olenna was board with that plan as well.

So yes this whole Dany going "mad" thing is contrived and stupid.

Exactly. But Dany haters have just been waiting for this moment so their theory of "the mad queen" could be validated with this nonsensical plot.

It's so weird because we've seen supposedly good characters doing even worse but Dany is reacting to Cersei's attacks on her, yet she is the one turning mad?

As Olenna said to her: "how do you propose to take the throne? by asking nicely?"

Edited by Nami

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I was rewatching the episode. Danny says: "They look at you in a way they looked at me on the other side of the sea".

What if, in the end, with all her dragons dead and nobody on her side, she goes back to Mereen to rule there? - sorry if it's been said already, hard to follow all the topics :))

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