Why are they plotting a coup?

[Hoo]

16 minutes ago, Petitephlox said:

Yes! I was saying this  - so much feels like fanfic right now. Ugh, even the Arya/Gendry scene “I’m no lady,” just fell flat. 

The reason is perhaps the sheer volume of characters which makes it difficult to keep track of what everyone is about.  

Arya is no lady.  She is ruthless killer.  The line fell flat in the midst of everything else going on, but the line stayed true to the character.

[Nami]

5 minutes ago, Hoo said:

The reason is perhaps the sheer volume of characters which makes it difficult to keep track of what everyone is about.  

Arya is no lady.  She is ruthless killer.  The line fell flat in the midst of everything else going on, but the line stayed true to the character.

Arya is broken. I think it made sense for her to not accept that proprosal.

[anjulibai]

I think Sansa is gunning for either Jon to be, or her to be queen. That's why she's doing what shes's doing. 

If she wants the throne herself, she's got quite a bit of backing. She's got the North, the Vale and the Riverlands in her pocket. Watch, she's going to try to marry Gendry (he'd be miserable with her, so I hope not), which gives her the Stormlands. The Reach and the Westerlands are leaderless now, so probably easy to get their minor lords behind her. All that's left is Dorne, which might be easy to negotiate a treaty with them.

[Erkan12]

Only reason why Dany think she deserves the IT;

1- She thinks she was the only Targaryen

2- She thinks her Dragons were powerful enough to take the IT

Both proven to be wrong.

Jon is better because;

1- Jon is a male Targaryen heir,

2- A proven fighter and a leader born and raised in Westeros,

3- He is the only one who can hold the North in the Seven Kingdom.

He is just better, it has nothing to do with hating Dany, it's totally logical, Varys has seen that as well, Tyrion also knows that but his honor is stopping him to betray Dany.

[House Cambodia]

13 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

So it’s become extremely apparent that the Starks and Tyrion are plotting to declare Jon King. This is clearly the main twist.

It's not apparent at all - not to Tyrion. However, the writing has telegraphed exactly how it's going to develop. The writers really over-egged Dany banging on about her rightful claim which is alienating everyone bar dopey Jon as she descends into megalomania, the apple of her father's eye.

And I thought Tyrion was laying it on too thick by sounding less and less convinced every time he repeated the same mantra about Dany being so wonderful. I wish they'd make it more ambiguous but yes of course Tyrion is going to switch sides and be a traitor to Dany, and she's going to burn KL with dragonfire until Jon stops her, terminally.

[House Cambodia]

7 minutes ago, Nami said:

Arya is broken. I think it made sense for her to not accept that proprosal.

Back in S01E01 she made it clear she was never wifey/mummy material even prior to becoming a faceless assassin.

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

I definitely feel Sansa is plotting for herself or Jon to become king.  Cersei will not see her coming because her focus is on Daenerys.   Just like Littlefinger planted the seeds of war (having Lysa poison Jon Arryn) ......Sansa is now setting chaos in motion. 

[House Cambodia]

13 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

I definitely feel Sansa is plotting for herself or Jon to become king.  Cersei will not see her coming because her focus is on Daenerys.   Just like Littlefinger planted the seeds of war (having Lysa poison Jon Arryn) ......Sansa is now setting chaos in motion. 

She's physically half a continent away. However, I'm sure she had a chat with Arya prior to the latter's departure, and I would be surprised if she's had a conflab with Varys too.

[RhaenysBee]

Because they swept the white walker threat off the table in one episode and they needed plot for the remaining three. 

[BlackLightning]

Why does it feel like I'm the only one who finds Jon's inability to withhold confidential information as a major political weakness? He's going to have to play the game if he becomes king. He has to be able to read people; he has to be able to know what to tell people, when to tell people and how to tell it.

What's worse is that those things are not Jon's only political weaknesses.

His lack of ambition, his blasé attitude towards the realities and the feelings of his bannerman and the fact that he continually allows people to do things he doesn't agree with behind his back are serious problems.

Ned and Robb had serious political weaknesses too but they weren't as numerous or as severe as Jon's weaknesses are.

I think this is how Jon dies. Someone in King's Landing is going to find out; there's absolutely no way that this information just stays between 8 people, 2 of which have either dubious loyalties or none at all.

[divica]

31 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

Only reason why Dany think she deserves the IT;

1- She thinks she was the only Targaryen

2- She thinks her Dragons were powerful enough to take the IT

Both proven to be wrong.

Jon is better because;

1- Jon is a male Targaryen heir,

2- A proven fighter and a leader born and raised in Westeros,

3- He is the only one who can hold the North in the Seven Kingdom.

He is just better, it has nothing to do with hating Dany, it's totally logical, Varys has seen that as well, Tyrion also knows that but his honor is stopping him to betray Dany.

If the choice was either one or the other jon does sound better.

But the biggest and most obvious question of this whole season

WHY DON T THEY GET MARRIED?

It would make everyone happy!

[Daemon of the Blacks]

34 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

Only reason why Dany think she deserves the IT;

1- She thinks she was the only Targaryen

2- She thinks her Dragons were powerful enough to take the IT

Both proven to be wrong.

Jon is better because;

1- Jon is a male Targaryen heir,

2- A proven fighter and a leader born and raised in Westeros,

3- He is the only one who can hold the North in the Seven Kingdom.

He is just better, it has nothing to do with hating Dany, it's totally logical, Varys has seen that as well, Tyrion also knows that but his honor is stopping him to betray Dany.

I actually don't really see why Jon would be better. I get Danny being a nutty brat could cause her to lose support but not why jon is supposed to be a better alternative other than being the main hero.

he's just not as good. Jon's tenure as Night Watch commander ended in failure, he only won the Battle of the Bastards because of Sansa and he turned out not to be the chosen one after all. Jon isn't even a particularly good leader of the North considering his subjects very quickly became very grumpy about him. Jon doesn't strike me as having the required political skills or even any political skills. 

[divica]

2 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Why does it feel like I'm the only one who finds Jon's inability to withhold confidential information as a major political weakness? He's going to have to play the game if he becomes king. He has to be able to read people; he has to be able to know what to tell people, when to tell people and how to tell it.

What's worse is that those things are not Jon's only political weaknesses.

His lack of ambition, his blasé attitude towards the realities and the feelings of his bannerman and the fact that he continually allows people to do things he doesn't agree with behind his back are serious problems.

Ned and Robb had serious political weaknesses too but they weren't as numerous or as severe as Jon's weaknesses are.

I think this is how Jon dies. Someone in King's Landing is going to find out; there's absolutely no way that this information just stays between 8 people, 2 of which have either dubious loyalties or none at all.

Jon needed to tell his sisters he isn t their brother. That is just who he is… We are talking about a guy that didn t lie to cersei and didn t make a vow he knew he couldn t keep even if it gave him cersei's help.

There is a diference between keeping confidencial information secret and keeping familly secrets from your familly. I think here the fault lies completly with sansa that betrayed him and the stupidity of tyrion fearing danny… In a normal world sansa would have lost any support she had from jon. You just don t do that...

[Coffeewiththegods]

Dany fans are really not happy right now. If my theory is correct, I think Cersei is going to trick dany into burning the red keep with the commoners in it. I think Varys will try to win the golden company to Jon’s side...probably going to get a whole lot worse for dany before this is over.

[divica]

1 minute ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

I actually don't really see why Jon would be better. I get Danny being a nutty brat could cause her to lose support but not why jon is supposed to be a better alternative other than being the main hero.

he's just not as good. Jon's tenure as Night Watch commander ended in failure, he only won the Battle of the Bastards because of Sansa and he turned out not to be the chosen one after all. Jon isn't even a particularly good leader of the North considering his subjects very quickly became very grumpy about him. Jon doesn't strike me as having the required political skills or even any political skills. 

I think it comes down to his character and ability to make decisions based on what his better no matter his personal preference.

We have seen jon forguiving enemies and being ready to give them a chance several times in the story. He is more interested in people welfare than his personal status. He is more open minded and seems more disposed to listen to advice than danny… And he understands westerosi nobles much better.

In general it makes sense that people think westeros needs a ruller with jon's personality to get over all this war and division… I won t talk about their political abilities that are close to 0 for both of them (burn or kneel/can t you see I am right)

[divica]

1 minute ago, Coffeewiththegods said:

Dany fans are really not happy right now. If my theory is correct, I think Cersei is going to trick dany into burning the red keep with the commoners in it. I think Varys will try to win the golden company to Jon’s side...probably going to get a whole lot worse for dany before this is over.

The problem with the mad queen danny is that it should take much more time for people to realize it and it doesn t make sense if her and jon are in a relationship.

 

[BlackLightning]

15 minutes ago, divica said:

Jon needed to tell his sisters he isn t their brother. That is just who he is… We are talking about a guy that didn't lie to cersei and didn't make a vow he knew he couldn't keep even if it gave him cersei's help.

That's EXACTLY what I am talking about.

Should Harry Truman have told the Japanese that he was not planning to offer terms of surrender because he though that dropping two atomic bombs on them was the better, safer idea?

Does Barack Obama keep the fact that he has Osama bin Laden in his crosshairs a secret until after Osama bin Laden has been killed? Or does he share that information with multiple allies in the Middle East and then swear all involved to secrecy before killing Osama bin Laden?

Is it right for Abraham Lincoln to not attempt to pacify the southern states with promises of not ending slavery because he feels like neither he nor his successors can guarantee that promise?

There are many things in life that people are better off not knowing until after the fact.

There is a diference between keeping confidencial information secret and keeping familly secrets from your familly. I think here the fault lies completly with sansa that betrayed him and the stupidity of tyrion fearing danny… In a normal world sansa would have lost any support she had from jon. You just don t do that...

I agree.

Also, in a normal world (or even in a normal story), Tyrion would have been fired.

[Ser Gareth]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Even if she were - she would never have the political weight to influence political decisions on that grand a scale. She would still be a girl, not a woman grown. And she would certainly not represent the kind of strength the North needs in the thick of winter - strength to lead armies in battle, etc.

People would follow the male leader - Jon - and wherever he led. The idea that you can be used as political pawn against your will be scheming women doesn't carry very far in this world. And since there is literally no proof that Jon Snow is 'Aegon Targaryen' and no Targaryen loyalists in Winterfell, the idea that the truth about his parentage is suddenly going to force him to move against Dany against his will is ridiculous.

Especially since it is very obvious how Jon and Dany could prevent all of that - by marrying each other. Then they would have a united front. They rule together, make decisions together, and interact with their court only after they came to an understanding.

She's flowered.  In Westeros terms that's a woman grown surely?  By the time she reaches the North in the books she'll be the same as age, or even older, than when we were introduced to Margaery (who is definitely a player).

She's also learned her from Cersei and Littlefinger.  They are her true mentors and those are the two her adult personality is most likely to take after.

Jon doesn't need Targaryen loyalists in the North.  All he needs are Northerners willing to follow him, irrespective of whether he is a Targ or a Stark.

As for the solution, yes I agree.  Marriage.  But Dany doesn't want an equal partnership.  She wants to be defacto ruler.

[BlackLightning]

1 minute ago, Ser Gareth said:

But Dany doesn't want an equal partnership.  She wants to be defacto ruler.

I don't think that's it.

I think it has more to do with the fact that Jon -- while he still loves her -- is very uncomfortable with the fact he is a trueborn Targaryen in love with his Targaryen aunt.

He doesn't want her the way he used to anymore. That's deeply distressing...Dany wants it to go back to like it was before but neither she nor Jon can do that.

It's sad. I feel bad for her.

[King Perkis]

13 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Yes it’s honourable to plot a coup against your ally who is the only reason you are still alive and sacrificed far more than any of your scum family. That is a betrayal of the worst magnitude. They are clearly in the wrong. Do you believe Barristan, Jorah and Missandei misjudged Dany?

What more did she sacrifice?  The episode showed everyone (North, Eryie, Wildlings, Unsullied Dothraki) losing half their forces in the fight?