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Tyrion1991

Why are they plotting a coup?

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5 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

I didn't say that LOL, you take the wrong quote.

Yeah, that was my quote. 

41 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Sorry, some posters just don't get the fundamentals of the whole story. The Targaryans see themselves as born to rule. Viserys was overt in his belief, and Dany soon took on board that she was born to rule Westeros very early on. Look how the Targaryens are portrayed physically, white beyond white, eyes so blue they're purple! They are Aryans. They keep the bloodline so pure they have children with their siblings rather than pollute their blood.

A poster above never even noticed the Dothraki are coloured savages, moulded on Genghis Khan's Mongol hordes (known as the Golden Horde) with a bit of savage red injun thrown in. The Unsullied are clones from the same ethnicity - all brown skinned. The coloured races are savages and slaves. The Aryan goddess believes herself their maternal natural ruler.

The writers didn't 'turn' Dany into a narcissist - it's a fundamental aspect of her character based on centuries of genetics.

I do get the "fundamentals of the whole story" and the obvious Great White Savior trope in all it's annoying obviousness. 

However, the Dothraki and Unsullied not slaves and are free to leave Dany's service at any time.

Rhaegar married outside his family, to a brown girl from Dorne, and fell in love with and also married a wild Northern girl which started a war. Dany looked to be taking after him, more than nutty Viserys who seems clearly more like their father. 

Maybe "Narcissist" is the wrong word. I think I'm disappointed she's turned out to be more power hungry than doing what's right, which calls her intelligence into question.

Between the two, Cersei has always been the, "not as cleaver as [she thinks she is]" one. Dany listens to advice where Cersei not only never does, but also has never had the patience to think action/causation threads through to their logical ends/outcomes. It's why Cersei will never see Jamie as the Valonqar, yet it seems obvious he will be. (To me, anyway.)

Until last season and this one, Dany has been very much like Jon, in that they both want what's best for "the realms of men." All men. Even Dany and her great, "break the wheel" speech... and her fight to permanently end slavery.... 

Yet once she set foot in Westeros, ego/power took over, and has blinded her for the most part (until she saw the AotD) into making everyone Bend The Knee, no matter what. She's clearly the same as Cersei in that.

What's disappointing is that she'd have the power she seeks far more securely with Jon, and by embracing who Jon is, than on her own. Yet now she's too blinded by power, and yes, I guess narcissism is the right word... to see it.

1 minute ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

That is the most annoying part about the episode. Arya and Sansa believing is fine. But Tyrion and Varys should not. 

Why shouldn't they? Bran has more than proven himself at this point. "We don't have time for this. The Night King has your dragon."

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

It’s been depicted as if everyone will believe it without question. 

The logical thing would be to question it, so of course no one does.

I can see why Tyrion would believe it, but Varys-the-magic-hater...well, everything about Varys this episode felt rushed and strange. How he turned on Daenerys within 5 minutes? How he plans to have her assassinated before Cersei is even dealt with? How he was openly discussing betrayal with Tyrion in a room where anyone could hear?
Yupp, rushed and strange. 
 

Edited by MinscS2

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5 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

It’s been depicted as if everyone will believe it without question. 

Honestly it doesn't really matter if anyone believes Jon is actually a Targaryen. It isn't like anyone is Westeros gives a damn about having a Targaryen on the throne. It is all about showing Daenerys true colours.

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4 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

The logical thing would be to question it, so of course no one does.

I can see why Tyrion would believe it, but Varys-the-magic-hater...well, everything about Varys this episode felt rushed and strange. How he turned on Daenerys within 5 minutes? How he plans to have her assassinated before Cersei is even dealt with? How he was openly discussing betrayal with Tyrion in a room where anyone could hear?
Yupp, rushed and strange. 
 

 

I don’t think Varys is long for this world. Why tell Tyrion?

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3 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I don’t think Varys is long for this world. Why tell Tyrion?

I would make a prediction on how Tyrion will ultimately, if not outright save, then warn Daenerys about Varys impending betrayal.
(We more or less "know" that he will die.)

But after this shitfest of an episode, I'm done making predictions. 

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3 minutes ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Maybe "Narcissist" is the wrong word. I think I'm disappointed she's turned out to be more power hungry than doing what's right, which calls her intelligence into question.

Between the two, Cersei has always been the, "not as cleaver as [she thinks she is]" one. Dany listens to advice where Cersei not only never does, but also has never had the patience to think action/causation threads through to their logical ends/outcomes. It's why Cersei will never see Jamie as the Valonqar, yet it seems obvious he will be. (To me, anyway.)

Until last season and this one, Dany has been very much like Jon, in that they both want what's best for "the realms of men." All men. Even Dany and her great, "break the wheel" speech... and her fight to permanently end slavery.... 

I feel that Cercei has been a remarkably static character throughout the show whilst other characters have grown. I said about an hour ago in some post that for me, Dany reached her zenith with her 'break the wheel'/mysha' phase so early that the plot required her descent into megalomania. She's been on an interesting journey, admittedly not the one people who like their characters 2D like, as have Sansa, Arya, Bran and Jamie. Jon - along with Tyrion of the last 3 series have been disappointing in that the writers haven't given them any further dimensions. But Jon has remained incorruptible and humble, which is perhaps a necessary contrast to her development.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, A Dance with Davos said:

Honestly it doesn't really matter if anyone believes Jon is actually a Targaryen. It isn't like anyone is Westeros gives a damn about having a Targaryen on the throne. It is all about showing Daenerys true colours.

TBH they’ve been very vague as to what the mood of the street actually is. Tyrion says that “her people hate her” in relation to Cersei and KL. But then Dany says everybody in Westeros views her with indifference if not hatred.

Plus I think that the significance of her raising up Robert Baratheons bastard and making her peace with his family is a far more poignant and significant moment then the show credits. Surely if Dany was mad she would have killed the Starks and Baratheons? For book fans the Targ vs Baratheon issue is a massive deal and her forgiving “the usurpers” is a massive act of reconciliation.

You have one queen who blew up the sept of Baelor and the other who raised a Flee Bottom orphan to Lordship in her service? You’re really telling me that wouldn’t be discussed or win her brownie points.

 

Edited by Tyrion1991

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15 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Well, let’s ignore the previous 6 seasons. Her half at the Battle of Winterfell was much larger than anyone else’s. She also lost Jorah. Plus her dragons were vital to holding off the dead. Jon even tells Sansa, at least twice that they would have lost without Dany and even Arya (who killed the NK) agreed that they wouldn’t have won without Danys army. So they’re admitting she has sacrificed more than anyone else, they just inexplicably don’t like her for some increasingly bizarre reason.

Danys statement that people this side of the narrow sea have never looked at her the way used to in Essos is incredibly telling. You are claiming that you can save the world and that doesn’t earn you any goodwill? I can’t believe that. There is nothing else Dany can do to win Westeros over. She has sacrificed more than anyone else and has done more than anyone to ensure victory against the Night King. If those don’t endear the people of Westeros then clearly there nothing else for it.

 

Eh.  Idk about them "admitting she has sacrificed more."  I will agree that she brought a larger army and everyone seems to agree that they needed her to win.  But it largely appears that to me that everyone sacrificed pretty evenly in terms of the Long Night.

That being said, I am not sure why Dany isn't listening to the "let everyone rest" advice and simply build up her army again.  She just named Genry Lord of the Stormlands to secure that.  We then learn that Dorne has declared for her and yet she doesn't want to bother with them.  

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

TBH they’ve been very vague as to what the mood of the street actually is. Tyrion says that “her people hate her” in relation to Cersei and KL. But then Dany says everybody in Westeros views her with indifference. 

Plus I think that the significance of her raising up Robert Baratheons bastard and making her peace with his family is a far more poignant and significant moment then the show credits. Surely if Dany was mad she would have killed the Starks and Baratheons? 

You have one queen who blew up the sept of Baelor and the other who raised a Flee Bottom orphan to Lordship in her service? You’re really telling me that wouldn’t be discussed or win her brownie points.

 

How people view Cersei or Daenerys isn't the point though. Ultimately it doesn't matter if anyone believes Jon is a Targaryen or not. Once the Throne is open for someone to sit on, it will go to the person most people want and it is clear that a lot of people like Jon.

The main reason for the Jon being a Targaryen plotline is to push things along with Daenerys. I understand that it is silly that Tyrion or Varys just believe it, but at the end of the day it isn't like anyone apart from Daenerys cares about a Targaryen being on the Throne.

 

+In all fairness to Tyrion and Varys there is clearly something "odd" about Bran.  It is plausible that they'd take Sansa's word for it if she told Tyrion Bran can see the past. Afterall they just witnessed a battle between the forces of the living against the living dead.

Edited by A Dance with Davos

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3 minutes ago, A Dance with Davos said:

How people view Cersei or Daenerys isn't the point though. Ultimately it doesn't matter if anyone believes Jon is a Targaryen or not. Once the Throne is open for someone to sit on, it will go to the person most people want and it is clear that a lot of people like Jon.

Does anybody not from the North want Jon on the throne? Because you know, just the North isn't enough to beat the rest of the Seven Kingdoms...

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1 minute ago, King Perkis said:

Eh.  Idk about them "admitting she has sacrificed more."  I will agree that she brought a larger army and everyone seems to agree that they needed her to win.  But it largely appears that to me that everyone sacrificed pretty evenly in terms of the Long Night.

That being said, I am not sure why Dany isn't listening to the "let everyone rest" advice and simply build up her army again.  She just named Genry Lord of the Stormlands to secure that.  We then learn that Dorne has declared for her and yet she doesn't want to bother with them.  

That’s not how I read that conversation at all. Sansa was “oh I’ll need to consult the officers, I can’t give you an exact timetable on getting the army moved”. As a master procrastinator myself I am impressed. She was stalling for time and trying to get out of her obligation. Dany has a point, if Cersei could dismantle her allies before and reinforce her defences then striking now is preferable.

Varys would have brought it up directly to convince Tyrion had it been a legitimate point. As opposed to the writers wheeling out medieval AA guns.

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15 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Iam sorry. Iam sorry. You think Dany doesn’t have cause to be angry at Cersei right now?  Being angry when somebody cuts your best friends head off does not make you insane.

How is Arya not insane? She put a man in a pie and fed that to his father! Sansa fed a man to his dogs. These are two great hypocrites to point at Dany doing nasty things like burning Lannister soldiers...

Killing people who murdered your mother, brother and countless bannermen and soldiers.

Killing a man who raped you, tortured you and murdered your little brother.

Burning people alive because they don't bend their knee to you.

You see no difference?

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Just now, Ser Lepus said:

Does anybody not from the North want Jon on the throne? Because you know, just the North isn't enough to beat the rest of the Seven Kingdoms...

To be fair... do the Seven Kingdoms even exist anymore? I gotta work with what I've got. The show boils down to KL, the North and Daenerys forces.

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5 minutes ago, A Dance with Davos said:

How people view Cersei or Daenerys isn't the point though. Ultimately it doesn't matter if anyone believes Jon is a Targaryen or not. Once the Throne is open for someone to sit on, it will go to the person most people want and it is clear that a lot of people like Jon.

The main reason for the Jon being a Targaryen plotline is to push things along with Daenerys. I understand that it is silly that Tyrion or Varys just believe it, but at the end of the day it isn't like anyone apart from Daenerys cares about a Targaryen being on the Throne.

 

+In all fairness to Tyrion and Varys there is clearly something "odd" about Bran.  It is plausible that they'd take Sansa's word for it if she told Tyrion Bran can see the past. Afterall they just witnessed a battle between the forces of the living against the living dead.

Actually Tyrion’s original plan was/is to instigate a popular revolt to overthrow Cersei similar to the riots in Kings Landing. So it is important what the common people think. I mean it would make Danys life much easier if the mob Cersei brought into the Red Keep decided to put her head on a particularly long pole.

Iam not sure Jon is actually popular in the South. 

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1 minute ago, Tyrion1991 said:

That’s not how I read that conversation at all. Sansa was “oh I’ll need to consult the officers, I can’t give you an exact timetable on getting the army moved”. As a master procrastinator myself I am impressed. She was stalling for time and trying to get out of her obligation. Dany has a point, if Cersei could dismantle her allies before and reinforce her defences then striking now is preferable.

Varys would have brought it up directly to convince Tyrion had it been a legitimate point. As opposed to the writers wheeling out medieval AA guns.

Sansa shouldn’t need to provide a timetable to convince Dany, if Dany was anything like a capable commander of troops. All she had to say was “fine, have an answer to me by sundown and I’ll make a call from there”. 

Instead, she loses her temper at Sansa for no good reason, and further drives home the point that she has no one truly willing to stop her from making crap decisions. 

It makes no sense to move your ragged troops hundreds of miles to fight a battle against a foe that’s likely already as imposing as it’s going to get. 

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2 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Actually Tyrion’s original plan was/is to instigate a popular revolt to overthrow Cersei similar to the riots in Kings Landing. So it is important what the common people think. I mean it would make Danys life much easier if the mob Cersei brought into the Red Keep decided to put her head on a particularly long pole.

Iam not sure Jon is actually popular in the South. 

The plan is to make a long siege and starve people until they get pissed and kill Cersei for not surrendering. But it's a bad plan because they'll never be able to siege them by the sea, Euron can make sure the city is well fed and as far as we know anyone other than Dorne has pledge support for Dany's cause.

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1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

Sorry, some posters just don't get the fundamentals of the whole story. The Targaryans see themselves as born to rule. Viserys was overt in his belief, and Dany soon took on board that she was born to rule Westeros very early on. Look how the Targaryens are portrayed physically, white beyond white, eyes so blue they're purple! They are Aryans. They keep the bloodline so pure they have children with their siblings rather than pollute their blood.

A poster above never even noticed the Dothraki are coloured savages, moulded on Genghis Khan's Mongol hordes (known as the Golden Horde) with a bit of savage red injun thrown in. The Unsullied are clones from the same ethnicity - all brown skinned. The coloured races are savages and slaves. The Aryan goddess believes herself their maternal natural ruler.

The writers didn't 'turn' Dany into a narcissist - it's a fundamental aspect of her character based on centuries of genetics.

Genetics and character are not the same thing. If you've noticed, Dany has been pretty much the only high-born person in the show who is actively about elevating the downtrodden.

So count me as one who doesn't "get the fundamentals" if you think it means Dany sees herself as an "Aryan goddess" who despises the brown-skinned. Yes, she believes she was born to rule Westeros, but that's a specific thing and, at least absent the info re Jon Starkgaryen, a true specific thing.

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3 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

The plan is to make a long siege and starve people until they get pissed and kill Cersei for not surrendering. But it's a bad plan because they'll never be able to siege them by the sea, Euron can make sure the city is well fed and as far as we know anyone other than Dorne has pledge support for Dany's cause.

It could have worked if not for the magical ballistas...

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3 minutes ago, Khal Ivo said:

Killing people who murdered your mother, brother and countless bannermen and soldiers.

Killing a man who raped you, tortured you and murdered your little brother.

Burning people alive because they don't bend their knee to you.

You see no difference?

 

We are talking about precisely two people here that she burnt for refusing to kneel. Two and neither was particularly endearing. You’re acting as if she’s going Genghis Khan when she really hasn’t.

Her entire arc for the last two seasons has been playing the peacemaker and trying to win people over. None of it has worked and she has been played for a fool every time when she should have burnt the Red Keep down the second she arrived in Westeros and destroyed the Iron Fleet. Now her enemies are near unassailable.

I wasn’t aware Jon took Winterfell back with gumdrops and ice cream.

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6 minutes ago, A Dance with Davos said:

To be fair... do the Seven Kingdoms even exist anymore? I gotta work with what I've got. The show boils down to KL, the North and Daenerys forces.

The show throws a line in the strategy meeting that Dorne has declared support for Dany, but didn't say anything about, Stormlands, Riverlands, Reach, Westerlands, the rest of crowlands etc. So we really don't know who is supporting who and who is commanding which area, the series didn't bother to explain to us all the players on the war to come, only Cersei, Dany and the North matters to them right now.

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