Treason Is Treason

[Lord Varys]

Go kill him already. And make him eat what's left of his balls. The guy has been useless since season 4.

And if those hacks wanted to cut Aegon they should have cut Varys along with him. Because without Aegon Varys doesn't make sense as a character. At least not without crucial changes which they actually failed to do.

Remember that those morons actually had Varys try to kill Dany back in season 1?! His character never made any sense at all!

[Tywin Tytosson]

12 hours ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

There were signs they were getting concerned about Daenerys back in Meereen when Tyrion convinced her to just burn one of the slavers ships and compromise by just killing two of the three slave masters.  She has a tendency to want to destroy anyone who doesn’t agree with her or bend the knee (like Aerys).  But she also showed compassion too .....like when she locked up her dragons so they would not harm the children and ended slavery.  She has just gotten more power driven the closer she gets to the Iron Throne and now there is little time left to change the trajectory of her character.  

Compound this with the loss of some of her closest friends and advisors.  Jorah, Jon, Missandei.  And the 2nd of her children.  Such things won't have a good effect on her psyche.

[MinscS2]

This episode made me positive that all Varys' talk about "serving the realm" is pure horseshit.
He's in it purely for himself, something that Melisandre even hinted at back in S7.

Varys wants a ruler that he can influence and manipulate, whisper in the ear. He wants power.
("Give us common people one taste of power and we're like the lion who tasted man".)

He thought that Daenerys would be an easy target ("I knew nothing about you except for the fact that you where said to be beautiful") but as soon as he realized that he won't be able to manipulate her the way he wants, he started searching for someone else. That's what he's always been doing. And now when he knows about Jon, the amount of time it took for him to abandon Daenerys after having supported her for several seasons, can be measured in seconds.

Probably explains why he's suddenly so against the idea of Jon and Daenerys marrying, and why he for some reason plans to have Daenerys killed before the war with Cersei is even over.
The whole idea that Daenerys is "too strong" for Jon is false as well. As audience, we've seen him defy her several times.

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

11 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

Compound this with the loss of some of her closest friends and advisors.  Jorah, Jon, Missandei.  And the 2nd of her children.  Such things won't have a good effect on her psyche.

That’s true but her story arc this season just seems too rushed and forced to be credible for many fans.   Unbelievable in a way.

[MinscS2]

14 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

That’s true but her story arc this season just seems too rushed and forced to be credible for many fans.   Unbelievable in a way.

Yes, Daenerys stor-arc and writing in S8 makes no sense with S7 in fresh memory. 

In S7 she increasingly receded the idea of taking the Iron Throne no matter the cost, and showed over and over that she was willing to do things the hard way, if it's the right way. Her "madness" receded more and more, and by the time Jon vocally bent the knee to her in E6, and during E7, it was basically gone, as was most of her talk about the Iron Throne.

Now cut to S8, which should be a mere couple of weeks after where S7 left off, and she's for some reason very vocal about the Iron Throne again, and last episode she basically did a 180 regarding all of her previous values for no real reason:

She expects Jon, the most honorable man she's ever met, to lie about himself for the rest of his life.
She ultimately values the throne more than Jon, something late S7 Daenerys would never do.
She starts to look and act like Viserys because...people celebrate Jon? What happened to her confidence?  
She starts talking about her destiny being to rid the world of tyrants. Since when was this her destiny?
She starts talking about killing innocents, when defending the downtrodden has been her common thread the entire show.

It makes no sense. The turn is so sharp it's immersion-breaking.
The Daenerys I saw yesterday may look and sound like Emilia Clarke and have the same name as the Daenerys of previous seasons, but it sure as hell is not the same Daenerys I've found so interesting and vouched for all these previous seasons.

Bran died in the cave and Daenerys died on the boat north...
Both killed because the plot demanded it.

[SeanF]

42 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Yes, Daenerys stor-arc and writing in S8 makes no sense with S7 in fresh memory. 

In S7 she increasingly receded the idea of taking the Iron Throne no matter the cost, and showed over and over that she was willing to do things the hard way, if it's the right way. Her "madness" receded more and more, and by the time Jon vocally bent the knee to her in E6, and during E7, it was basically gone, as was most of her talk about the Iron Throne.

Now cut to S8, which should be a mere couple of weeks after where S7 left off, and she's for some reason very vocal about the Iron Throne again, and last episode she basically did a 180 regarding all of her previous values for no real reason:

She expects Jon, the most honorable man she's ever met, to lie about himself for the rest of his life.
She ultimately values the throne more than Jon, something late S7 Daenerys would never do.
She starts to look and act like Viserys because...people celebrate Jon? What happened to her confidence?  
She starts talking about her destiny being to rid the world of tyrants. Since when was this her destiny?
She starts talking about killing innocents, when defending the downtrodden has been her common thread the entire show.

It makes no sense. The turn is so sharp it's immersion-breaking.
The Daenerys I saw yesterday may look and sound like Emilia Clarke and have the same name as the Daenerys of previous seasons, but it sure as hell is not the same Daenerys I've found so interesting and vouched for all these previous seasons.

Bran died in the cave and Daenerys died on the boat north...
Both killed because the plot demanded it.

I don't think it's that abrupt a shift.  Dany has always had a cruel, selfish, side to her character, from as soon as she escaped Viserys' shadow.  And in Westeros, she tried to hold off from killing innocents, and marched North to fight the dead.  The result of the first has been to bleed her army white.  The result of the second is that (Jon excepted) the Northerners still dislike and distrust her, and would rather she was gone.  

So, I think it's logical that she would conclude that torching the Red Keep is the only option left to her.  And if Kings Landing resists, it will be sacked.  That's standard practice in a medieval world.  

 

[MinscS2]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

I don't think it's that abrupt a shift.  Dany has always had a cruel, selfish, side to her character, from as soon as she escaped Viserys' shadow.  And in Westeros, she tried to hold off from killing innocents, and marched North to fight the dead.  The result of the first has been to bleed her army white.  The result of the second is that (Jon excepted) the Northerners still dislike and distrust her, and would rather she was gone.  

So, I think it's logical that she would conclude that torching the Red Keep is the only option left to her.  And if Kings Landing resists, it will be sacked.  That's standard practice in a medieval world.  

 

Yes, Daenerys has always had a "will-she-won't-she(become like her father)" vibe about her. 

My point is that from a narrative perspective, S7 pushed the "won't" angle very hard, to the point where it was all but clear by the end of the season that she is not her father. When push comes to shove, she will do the right thing, even to her own detriment. 

Then S8 rolls up, suddenly this angle is gone over night, and she suddenly does a sharp turn into "will"-territory last episode for no real reason.
From a narrative perspective, it makes no sense. You can almost see how the writers had a checklist and one bullet point was "Daenerys finally goes mad due to reason X". It comes across as forced and lazy writing and is essentially an assassination of her character-arc. 


 

[Nightwish]

7 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

This episode made me positive that all Varys' talk about "serving the realm" is pure horseshit.
He's in it purely for himself, something that Melisandre even hinted at back in S7.

Varys wants a ruler that he can influence and manipulate, whisper in the ear. He wants power.
("Give us common people one taste of power and we're like the lion who tasted man".)

He thought that Daenerys would be an easy target ("I knew nothing about you except for the fact that you where said to be beautiful") but as soon as he realized that he won't be able to manipulate her the way he wants, he started searching for someone else. That's what he's always been doing. And now when he knows about Jon, the amount of time it took for him to abandon Daenerys after having supported her for several seasons, can be measured in seconds.

Probably explains why he's suddenly so against the idea of Jon and Daenerys marrying, and why he for some reason plans to have Daenerys killed before the war with Cersei is even over.
The whole idea that Daenerys is "too strong" for Jon is false as well. As audience, we've seen him defy her several times.

Probably, it is not just Dany who can overpower John  everybody can overpower John. But Varys needs to know that this position of influence he is seeking is occupied by Sansa who is already taking decisions for John without John. 

[darmody]

4 hours ago, Nightwish said:

Probably, it is not just Dany who can overpower John  everybody can overpower John. But Varys needs to know that this position of influence he is seeking is occupied by Sansa who is already taking decisions for John without John. 

Jon has defied Sansa, however. Though moreso when he was far away from her, which he will be again. I think Danny knows Sansa is a problem, but her plate is full just now.

[Tywin Tytosson]

On 5/6/2019 at 10:00 AM, TheFirstofHerName said:

All of them are a bunch of murderous or scheming vipers who want the Iron Throne and deserve to die except Jon, Sam, Gilly, Little Sam,Brienne, Tormund, and Davos.  I am exhausted from all their plotting.   Sansa could end up on the throne but she has no honor and couldn’t keep a promise 5 minutes before she was plotting with Tyrion.

Welcome to Medieval Politics 101.   

[Tywin Tytosson]

On 5/6/2019 at 9:35 AM, Nerevanin said:

If Varys wants the best outcome possible for the realm, then he is right and Jon is the best possible king. If Varys wants Jon to become the king, it's clear that Cersei needs to be defeated, so I won't even comment on this further. As for Dany, she is very unpredictable, very cruel towards those who doesn't obey her and she does have "mad queen" tendecies. Varys knows this and he doesn't want a wildcard to rule. She can be a good ruler but she can also burn the land.

[Tywin Tytosson]

On 5/7/2019 at 8:02 AM, MinscS2 said:

Yes, Daenerys has always had a "will-she-won't-she(become like her father)" vibe about her. 

My point is that from a narrative perspective, S7 pushed the "won't" angle very hard, to the point where it was all but clear by the end of the season that she is not her father. When push comes to shove, she will do the right thing, even to her own detriment. 

Then S8 rolls up, suddenly this angle is gone over night, and she suddenly does a sharp turn into "will"-territory last episode for no real reason.
From a narrative perspective, it makes no sense. You can almost see how the writers had a checklist and one bullet point was "Daenerys finally goes mad due to reason X". It comes across as forced and lazy writing and is essentially an assassination of her character-arc. 


 

Perhaps, then, it was Dany's S7 arc that was out-of-character.  The 'won't' angle was pushed in S7.  But other seasons, she was quite brutal to those who opposed her.  I took her S7 behavior as listening to Tyrion and Varys' moderating counsel.  Tyrion says so in ep 7.  We do see 'cracks', however, esp. once Tyrion's over-complicated plans backfire and she starts to lose.  She was going to go burn down the Red Keep until Jon talked her out of it.  She then began to listen to Jon and then the newly-returned Jorah.  Now Jorah is dead and she is not trusting Jon.  And Jon is not there - he is marching with the main body of troops, down the Kingsroad.   

In addition, Dany has always been very vindictive when her dragons were threatened or hurt.  This has been true from the get-go.  Or at least when her dragons were born.  She is also short-tempered and impulsive.

Is she 'mad'?   I don't think so.   But she is not the person that Tyrion thinks (or wants) her to be.

 

[Tywin Tytosson]

On 5/7/2019 at 12:47 PM, darmody said:

Jon has defied Sansa, however. Though moreso when he was far away from her, which he will be again. I think Danny knows Sansa is a problem, but her plate is full just now.

The only reason that Sansa is a problem is that Dany wants the North to be in the realm, but Sansa (and the North) do not want to be.