The Last of the Disappointments?

[LearnToBeNoOne]

In a final season where each episode has progressively gotten worse, is it too ambitious to ask whether naming this episode 'The Last of The Disappointments' would have been more accurate? I'm sure we're all hoping that it can't possibly get worse than this although the writers have consistently outdone themselves. I'm focusing solely on the series here.

The laziness of the 'Dany is the daughter of the Mad King and is showing signs of madness herself' is appaling, the longer she waits the stronger Cersei will become. So what other choice does she have other than to attack? I also find the ''I serve the realm'' narrative played out. Vary's has managed to convince himself that he is far more innocent than he really is. If he serves the realm then his job would be to find a solution for the Jon/Dany situation rather than plotting and potentially escalating things to a much worse position.

Regardless of whether you may or may not be in favour of Dany surely we can all accept that it's ridiculous to think that she wouldn't have seen Euron's fleet in the distance whilst flying high on her Dragon's. Furthermore why were scouts not sent?

What's shocking to me is the accuracy of the ballista's, they are literally mounted on a ship that's rocking due the waves but somehow manages to hit a flying Dragon without missing a single shot? Either way, why not attack in the night and burn Euron's fleet and the rest of the defence?

Sansa who has suffered at the hands of the Lannister's and a previous supporter of revenge against the south is acting very strange indeed now that it's time.

The writers of the series not having a book to reference these past few seasons is no justification for how they've let George R.R. Martin's vision down. There was so much more to the characters and story in general that could have been developed yet they chose the lazy and rushed route full of random surprises and a focus on visuals.

Here's to hoping we get the last two books.

[Kajjo]

2 hours ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

The laziness of the 'Dany is the daughter of the Mad King and is showing signs of madness herself' is appaling,

Can you elaborate on this, please? I didn't understand what you mean.

Daenerys is shown signs of the Mad King more or less since we know her. That's her arc.

2 hours ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

I also find the ''I serve the realm'' narrative played out. Vary's has managed to convince himself that he is far more innocent than he really is.

I agree. The role of Varys is unclear and a little bit strange.

2 hours ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

Regardless of whether you may or may not be in favour of Dany surely we can all accept that it's ridiculous to think that she wouldn't have seen Euron's fleet in the distance whilst flying high on her Dragon's. Furthermore why were scouts not sent?

Yes, that was somehow unbelievable. Badly made.

[Lord Varys]

Varys has become an utter joke here. I grant it that Conleth finally had some reasonably good lines to use and one was finally reminded why he was such a great Varys when he had a chance to actually play George's character (which he did, for the most part, in the earlier seasons), but fucking Varys actually stood by the fucking Mad King until the very and (supposedly) always pointed him to traitors.

Since show Varys apparently was never anything but a Targaryen loyalist serving the Realm he would have been Aerys II best buddy until the end, just as he honestly tried to get Drogo and Viserys III into Westeros (another great idea to 'serve the Realm').

How on earth does it make sense that this guy without clear standards suddenly discovers that the rulers he serves should follow his arbitrary standards?

And what sense does it make to sit the moral high horse after you basically just defeated a zombie army that would have killed everybody. Any person seeing those creatures, and person knowing that everybody would die if those dead were not defeated by the means Dany brought to them, any person losing a lot of friends and allies in the fighting would look at Cersei and her people not as merely enemies in a mundane war, but as traitors and enemies to mankind itself. Because the place of Cersei and Euron and all their people - of every man, woman, and child at KL - would have been at the side of the heroes defeating the Others. Anything less than that is not just cowardice but aiding and abetting the enemy of life itself.

[Amris]

3 hours ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

[snip]

Regardless of whether you may or may not be in favour of Dany surely we can all accept that it's ridiculous to think that she wouldn't have seen Euron's fleet in the distance whilst flying high on her Dragon's. Furthermore why were scouts not sent?

[snip]

 

That pointed practically screamed at me too.

I looked at up in a line-of-sight computing program:

- Two objects, each of them 15 m in height can spot each other at seas at a distance of 31 km (19 miles).

- An object, lets say 150 m up in the air (0,1 miles high) (dragon) can theoretically see a 15m high ship at a distance of 64 km (39 miles).

The best information I found about the reach of 'ballistae' (roman: scorpio) is that they had a range of 'several hundred meters'. Let's say 500m (0,31 miles) which seems very generous when shooting at a target high up in the air.

Anyway: Dany should have been able to spot Euron's fleet at 128 times the distance the fleet would have been able to shoot back at her. Even if one were conservative and assumed that the ships were to small to be spotted at a vast distance they should easily have been seen at a distance of several miles. Especially since we are talking about a whole fleet.

The viewer can not help but be slammed with the sledgehammer of the fact that the desired outcome hat 100% influence on the script and in-story logic had 0%. Which means suspension of disbelief is impossible which means suspense is gone completely.

3 hours ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

[snip]

What's shocking to me is the accuracy of the ballista's, they are literally mounted on a ship that's rocking due the waves but somehow manages to hit a flying Dragon without missing a single shot?

[snip]

Also unfortunately a completely valid point.

It jumped out of the screen at me that the script put shock effect at 100% and again logic at 0%. 

So as a viewer I get hit over the head with a big signpost 'in-world logic plays no role at all!!'. Which means everything that happens is completely meaningless within the framework of the story. Since the story does not follow its own rules anymore. Just arbitrary shock effect. Which means again suspense goes away. The story deflated like a punctured balloon.

In short: completely impossible storyline -> possibility of suspension of disbelief = 0.  -> suspense = 0

All the had work they put into it for nothing  

[LearnToBeNoOne]

24 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Can you elaborate on this, please? I didn't understand what you mean.

Daenerys is shown signs of the Mad King more or less since we know her. That's her arc.

Agreed, I should have been a little more specific.

What I mean is, she's more or less the same person she was before Vary's joined her, maybe even with a little bit more empathy as she put her claim to the throne on pause until the WW's were defeated - was sensible enough to realise it's an US problem and not a YOU problem in regards to The North.

So my point being, Dany has always been Dany and her desires have always been clear as well as the measures she's willing to take. Specifically what I find lazy is Vary's making the 'Dany is the daughter of the Mad King and is showing signs of madness herself' an issue as an excuse to plot against her as if he's had some sudden epiphany in regards to her, he knew what he signed up for.

He must be adamant that Dany will die trying and that means he will almost inevitably fall into the hands of Cersei, something that he definitely wants to avoid. Yet he feels as if Jon can win the Iron Throne and gather more support, getting Tyrion on board is his best way to bring his idea to fruition.

So is it that 'Dany is the daughter of the Mad King and is showing signs of madness herself' the problem? Which wasn't before or that he simply doesn't believe with Dany's current army that she can win the war.

By raising the 'rightful heir' argument he must believe that a lot more people will get on board helping them to win the battle and as he has Stark blood it will bring peace to The North permanently. 

I do wonder if the Golden Company being founded by Aegor Rivers, one of the bastard sons of King Aegon IV Targaryen could potentially cause them to break a contract, something they've never done before. If it means supporting Aegon Targaryen the true male heir of House Targaryen.

[Nightwish]

I don't think this is the Last of disappointments, apparently there are many to come. 

3 hours ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

The laziness of the 'Dany is the daughter of the Mad King and is showing signs of madness herself' is appaling, the longer she waits the stronger Cersei will become. So what other choice does she have other than to attack? I also find the ''I serve the realm'' narrative played out. Vary's has managed to convince himself that he is far more innocent than he really is. If he serves the realm then his job would be to find a solution for the Jon/Dany situation rather than plotting and potentially escalating things to a much worse position.

I agree. Ever since Dany came to Westeros, they have started debating as such with Varys and Tyrion "worrying" she can show trends of her father. But if they had wanted us to believe that this is the case, they have not supported it strong enough. Dany does what she always did. Nothing extreme, she hasn't start hearing voices or becoming delusional seeing traitors all the way even to her best friends. She even forgave them for their past actions and drove her army to help the North. Are these signs of going crazy? 

Vary's explanations or even excuses are simply a joke. 

 

[LearnToBeNoOne]

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Varys has become an utter joke here. I grant it that Conleth finally had some reasonably good lines to use and one was finally reminded why he was such a great Varys when he had a chance to actually play George's character (which he did, for the most part, in the earlier seasons), but fucking Varys actually stood by the fucking Mad King until the very and (supposedly) always pointed him to traitors.

Since show Varys apparently was never anything but a Targaryen loyalist serving the Realm he would have been Aerys II best buddy until the end, just as he honestly tried to get Drogo and Viserys III into Westeros (another great idea to 'serve the Realm').

Exactly, essentially meaning that supporting Dany is to 'serve the Realm'

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

How on earth does it make sense that this guy without clear standards suddenly discovers that the rulers he serves should follow his arbitrary standards?

Haha, this made me laugh. He needs to remember his purpose, suddenly he's on a moral high and looking at everybody else as sinners.

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And what sense does it make to sit the moral high horse after you basically just defeated a zombie army that would have killed everybody. Any person seeing those creatures, and person knowing that everybody would die if those dead were not defeated by the means Dany brought to them, any person losing a lot of friends and allies in the fighting would look at Cersei and her people not as merely enemies in a mundane war, but as traitors and enemies to mankind itself. Because the place of Cersei and Euron and all their people - of every man, woman, and child at KL - would have been at the side of the heroes defeating the Others. Anything less than that is not just cowardice but aiding and abetting the enemy of life itself.

Exactly this, Cersei needs to be held accountable along with her sympathisers for treason against 'the Realm,' she did not serve her people. Had the WW's not been defeated everybody else would have been next, including the people of KL and Cersei herself. Dany's support for The North is in itself a show of leadership and says a lot about her priorities as a Queen. I have shared a quote of mine below that I wrote in my last response.

8 minutes ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

 

What I mean is, she's more or less the same person she was before Vary's joined her, maybe even with a little bit more empathy as she put her claim to the throne on pause until the WW's were defeated - was sensible enough to realise it's an US problem and not a YOU problem in regards to The North.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

Haha, this made me laugh. He needs to remember his purpose, suddenly he's on a moral high and looking at everybody else as sinners.

They actually seemed to realize how nonsensical the story is they are telling there. After all, they only had Tyrion to reference the number of kings Varys supposedly served in his career, they did not mention that he actually first rose to his position as advisor to the Mad King. Any sane person would have confronted Varys with the fact that he was the fucking lickspittle of the Mad King here - but they couldn't do that because it would have destroyed the internal consistency of the Varys character explicitly rather than merely implicitly as they did it.

That is just an utter disgrace.

And considering their nonsensical talk it seems rather obvious that Varys' fears should turn out to be unfounded. After all, if everything was as bad as he tries to paint it then we wouldn't have gotten him to spill it out, would we?

[LearnToBeNoOne]

47 minutes ago, Amris said:

That pointed practically screamed at me too.

I looked at up in a line-of-sight computing program:

- Two objects, each of them 15 m in height can spot each other at seas at a distance of 31 km (19 miles).

- An object, lets say 150 m up in the air (0,1 miles high) (dragon) can theoretically see a 15m high ship at a distance of 64 km (39 miles).

The best information I found about the reach of 'ballistae' (roman: scorpio) is that they had a range of 'several hundred meters'. Let's say 500m (0,31 miles) which seems very generous when shooting at a target high up in the air.

Anyway: Dany should have been able to spot Euron's fleet at 128 times the distance the fleet would have been able to shoot back at her. Even if one were conservative and assumed that the ships were to small to be spotted at a vast distance they should easily have been seen at a distance of several miles. Especially since we are talking about a whole fleet.

The viewer can not help but be slammed with the sledgehammer of the fact that the desired outcome hat 100% influence on the script and in-story logic had 0%. Which means suspension of disbelief is impossible which means suspense is gone completely.

The numbers do put things into perspective, that scene doesn't make sense visually or mathematically.

Once again it only proves that once the writers decide what they want to happen, impossible is nothing. Forget sense or logic or anything of that nature, the outcome will be the outcome. Even if it means Dany not seeing a fleet in the horizon whilst in the sky on her dragon, it's comical but due to how ridiculous it is.

 

47 minutes ago, Amris said:

Also unfortunately a completely valid point.

It jumped out of the screen at me that the script put shock effect at 100% and again logic at 0%. 

So as a viewer I get hit over the head with a big signpost 'in-world logic plays no role at all!!'. Which means everything that happens is completely meaningless within the framework of the story. Since the story does not follow its own rules anymore. Just arbitrary shock effect. Which means again suspense goes away. The story deflated like a punctured balloon.

Haha, it's as if they don't want you to take anything but shock from the series. Didn't realise not having books to reference meant a series of random events that have been thrown in with 0 thought. Even if it's the most ridiculous or unrealistic thing (even for a fantasy, even if you separate the real world from the series) that scene just doesn't work for me.

Not only did she somehow not see them but they managed to be 100% accurate with their shots to bring the dragon down.

47 minutes ago, Amris said:

In short: completely impossible storyline -> possibility of suspension of disbelief = 0.  -> suspense = 0

All the had work they put into it for nothing  

 

Can't do anything but agree with both points here.

They've spent years to build it up to just knock it back down again, didn't even have time to see the finished product and admire what could have been something great.

 

[LearnToBeNoOne]

55 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

I don't think this is the Last of disappointments, apparently there are many to come. 

A lot more random events to create shock? They're addicted to it so you're probably right. It's not like they need a story or for it to make sense, they just do it.

Quote

I agree. Ever since Dany came to Westeros, they have started debating as such with Varys and Tyrion "worrying" she can show trends of her father. But if they had wanted us to believe that this is the case, they have not supported it strong enough. Dany does what she always did. Nothing extreme, she hasn't start hearing voices or becoming delusional seeing traitors all the way even to her best friends. She even forgave them for their past actions and drove her army to help the North. Are these signs of going crazy? 

Vary's explanations or even excuses are simply a joke. 

 

Not only have they not made it a priority to raise it as an issue until now or to take action but they also chose to remain by her side. Yet suddenly she's so terrible that treason is trying to be justified under the name of serving 'the Realm' whilst Cersei continues to sit on the throne in KL after not taking part in a battle that concerned everybody - it was literally a matter of life and death.

Dany has also done many things that nobody else has and that's showing both forgiveness and empathy. Forgiveness for both Ser Jorah and Ser Barristan and empathy towards The North.

You may well see traits to suggest she is her father, it's part of her but you can also find traits to show that she's different and that she's in control.

To me this discussion is not about being for or against Dany, it's about the flaws and inconsistencies that have made a lot of events not make sense.

[Kajjo]

1 hour ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

So my point being, Dany has always been Dany and her desires have always been clear as well as the measures she's willing to take

Agreed.

1 hour ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

Specifically what I find lazy is Vary's making the 'Dany is the daughter of the Mad King and is showing signs of madness herself' an issue as an excuse to plot against her as if he's had some sudden epiphany in regards to her, he knew what he signed up for.

Yes, right, but maybe this is supposed to show that Varys turned quite a lot of times and continues to turn as soon as he finds a more suitable candidate. This is in sync with Varys' and Daenerys' arc.

Yes, the Mad King issue is not the most important one, but Jon be the better King is a valid assertion anyway.

1 hour ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

By raising the 'rightful heir' argument he must believe that a lot more people will get on board helping them to win the battle and as he has Stark blood it will bring peace to The North permanently.

Well, Jon IS indeed the rightful heir and the more promising candidate to rule. And joining Ice and Fire is a great way or joining the different sides of the centuries old conflict.

[Prince Jon]

1 hour ago, Amris said:

It jumped out of the screen at me that the script put shock effect at 100% and again logic at 0%. 

So as a viewer I get hit over the head with a big signpost 'in-world logic plays no role at all!!'. Which means everything that happens is completely meaningless within the framework of the story. Since the story does not follow its own rules anymore. Just arbitrary shock effect. Which means again suspense goes away. The story deflated like a punctured balloon.

In short: completely impossible storyline -> possibility of suspension of disbelief = 0.  -> suspense = 0

All the had work they put into it for nothing  

Excellent post overall but this part really matched my disappointment with how the show has changed.  

GOT used to have pacing. Events/characters evolved naturally according to the 'logic' of the GOT story.  It was beautiful how we would be totally surprised about something but then, upon reflection, realize how the surprise made sense.  This effect is long gone. 

I am enjoying this last season.  Still not the same....

[LearnToBeNoOne]

55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They actually seemed to realize how nonsensical the story is they are telling there. After all, they only had Tyrion to reference the number of kings Varys supposedly served in his career, they did not mention that he actually first rose to his position as advisor to the Mad King. Any sane person would have confronted Varys with the fact that he was the fucking lickspittle of the Mad King here - but they couldn't do that because it would have destroyed the internal consistency of the Varys character explicitly rather than merely implicitly as they did it.

That is just an utter disgrace.

Haha, when you break it down like that it makes the situation even more hilarious. As you said, if Tyrion had mentioned who Vary's had specifically served rather than just mentioning the number of people he served then Vary's would not have been able to make that point. It was serving 'the Realm' when it was the Mad King but now it isn't? This doesn't change the fact that we know even if it was years ago and not mentioned by Tyrian so either way his point is, I agree, disgraceful.

55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And considering their nonsensical talk it seems rather obvious that Varys' fears should turn out to be unfounded. After all, if everything was as bad as he tries to paint it then we wouldn't have gotten him to spill it out, would we?

Exactly this. He is meant to be a 'spider,' after all.

[21st Century Moose]

6 hours ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

Regardless of whether you may or may not be in favour of Dany surely we can all accept that it's ridiculous to think that she wouldn't have seen Euron's fleet in the distance whilst flying high on her Dragon's. Furthermore why were scouts not sent?

So you missed the part where the dragons were shot from the side and the ships came round a corner at the end of a cliff? Where the ships were, you know, hidden? Because that part seemed really obvious and difficult to miss. 

[Amris]

3 minutes ago, 21st Century Moose said:

So you missed the part where the dragons were shot from the side and the ships came round a corner at the end of a cliff? Where the ships were, you know, hidden? Because that part seemed really obvious and difficult to miss. 

You mean the big sail fleet in perfect formation? That's supposed to have snuck around a corner in the  blink of an eye? Without anyone seeing anything before a swarm of scorpion arrows came out of nowhere? C'mon that makes the scene even more ridiculous.

And don't start me on how someone airborne at height can't see a big fleet over a cliff. Sheesh.

[anjulibai]

It's all rushed, bad writing, is what this episode, and this season, boils down to. They didn't give themselves the time to craft something that is logical and consistent with the rest of the story.

It's a sad end to the series, and I honestly feel, at least for me, that the rest of the series is tainted for it. My husband and I were talking about it, and we both agree, we just don't think we can watch the series again (despite watching it over and over for years now). I just can't watch these characters develop and interact, knowing how they end up. 

[Hoo]

It's disappointing this series will end in 2 episodes.

[Daemon of the Blacks]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Varys has become an utter joke here. I grant it that Conleth finally had some reasonably good lines to use and one was finally reminded why he was such a great Varys when he had a chance to actually play George's character (which he did, for the most part, in the earlier seasons), but fucking Varys actually stood by the fucking Mad King until the very and (supposedly) always pointed him to traitors.

Since show Varys apparently was never anything but a Targaryen loyalist serving the Realm he would have been Aerys II best buddy until the end, just as he honestly tried to get Drogo and Viserys III into Westeros (another great idea to 'serve the Realm').

How on earth does it make sense that this guy without clear standards suddenly discovers that the rulers he serves should follow his arbitrary standards?

And what sense does it make to sit the moral high horse after you basically just defeated a zombie army that would have killed everybody. Any person seeing those creatures, and person knowing that everybody would die if those dead were not defeated by the means Dany brought to them, any person losing a lot of friends and allies in the fighting would look at Cersei and her people not as merely enemies in a mundane war, but as traitors and enemies to mankind itself. Because the place of Cersei and Euron and all their people - of every man, woman, and child at KL - would have been at the side of the heroes defeating the Others. Anything less than that is not just cowardice but aiding and abetting the enemy of life itself.

I blame the Young Griff arc being scrammed for all Varys' woes. 

[LearnToBeNoOne]

6 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Yes, right, but maybe this is supposed to show that Varys turned quite a lot of times and continues to turn as soon as he finds a more suitable candidate. This is in sync with Varys' and Daenerys' arc.

It's true, it doesn't make it any better to watch though. We've seen how he's been a 'spider' in the past this just seems too sudden.

6 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Yes, the Mad King issue is not the most important one, but Jon be the better King is a valid assertion anyway.

Well, Jon IS indeed the rightful heir and the more promising candidate to rule. And joining Ice and Fire is a great way or joining the different sides of the centuries old conflict.

Agreed, he is of Ice and Fire and is indeed the rightful heir so his claim does make sense.

The writers didn't allocate enough time to explore the relationship between Jon and Dany after he told her who he truly was. Surely Dany who's believed herself to be the rightful heir this whole time, on a journey to take back what she thought to be rightfully hers wouldn't just leave it at a simple, if you can keep it a secret it's fine. If they do turn on each other or one murders the other it just seems like, well it was bound to happen but we don't know the dialogue that took place or how the tension truly built up - why they couldn't come to an agreement. Does Jon not wanting the claim really suffice? Is there enough time when the battle at KL is upon us?

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, anjulibai said:

It's all rushed, bad writing, is what this episode, and this season, boils down to. They didn't give themselves the time to craft something that is logical and consistent with the rest of the story.

It's a sad end to the series, and I honestly feel, at least for me, that the rest of the series is tainted for it. My husband and I were talking about it, and we both agree, we just don't think we can watch the series again (despite watching it over and over for years now). I just can't watch these characters develop and interact, knowing how they end up. 

Yeah, that's what I've been saying. Once we get the finale the re-watch potential of this thing will quickly drop to zero. Because very few people will be able to wrap their heads around the nonsensical plot. In addition to the other issues this will be the final nail in the coffin. If you know the ending, if you know what's going to happen you give much more thought to characterization and setup. And the series doesn't deliver on that front at all. Pretty much no character in this show has any kind of believable or convincing motivations for his or her actions.