Sansa breaking her oath and the Anti-Daenerys conspiracy

[Kajjo]

2 minutes ago, Wik said:

And yes, I am "pre-judging" these 2 arcs

Well, I never appreciated the Bran storyline so much anyway, so it is difficult for me to argue against you, but I believe Bran's arc suffers from too less explanation, maybe even from to much phantasy stuff.

However, I always really liked Arya's storyline from sweet tomboy to assassin, also involving her emotional and personality development. I am somehow afraid of how her arc might end, but I don't think that refusing Gendry's propasal is out of character, nor is leaving for King's Landing. I don't unterstand why she does not intend to return to Winterfell, though. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

Jon wants to be in the North. Sansa doesn't want Jon to go South. Hahaha, they want the same things. This is so obvious. 

[LadyBlackwater]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Funny, she did that in season 1 over Lady. 

and to her father when she ran to the queen with his plans. But it could be said that in the early years, she was a clueless scared little bird who just wanted everyone to be happy and everything to be lovely. I believe she did this because she has a gut feeling not to trust Dany and seeing that Tyrion was afraid of her cemented her decision. I am not a fan of where the show has taken her, but I see why she did it. I just want the books.

[RhaenysBee]

It was clearer than the cloudless sky that Sansa would tell that secret to anyone and everyone she liked from the second Daenerys asked Jon to keep the secret. I mean it’s sansa, this is hardly a surprise. 

[BlackLightning]

Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

Jon wants to be in the North. Sansa doesn't want Jon to go South. Hahaha, they want the same things. This is so obvious. 

If she didn't want Jon to go south, why would she tell Tyrion that Jon has a strong claim (if not the only true claim) to the Iron Throne?

It doesn't make sense. If anything, that will keeps him in the south...

 

[Wik]

6 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

Actually, I would ask those questions.  Queen Dany picked up a sword.  Noble-born Arya picked up several swords.  Brienne of Tarth picked up a sword.  Lady Mormont picked up a sword.  If Lady Sansa Stark wants to be a full throated proponent for the independence of the North, it would help if she had prepared for the battle.  She came across as cowardly to me, while other women were making a stand for the north. 

Gilly is in the crypts because she is pregnant.  Missendei is from peaceful Nath.  I make no statements about the males in the crypt as I was talking about females.

While it is possible I am applying current sensibilities, we also in the next ep see Sansa breaking an oath, and setting up intrigue to get what she wants.  Not only is she cowardly, but she is also a liar to Jon, and a manipulator to Tyrion.  

Have we NOT learned, time after time, in this series, that wielding a weapon is NOT always the best way to fix something or make your best case? 

The pen can be mightier than the sword. We saw it with Tywin, LF, and a slew of others. Exactly WHAT purpose would have been served by having ANYONE, not just Sansa, in the field of battle who literally has no skill or knowledge or how to use a weapon, let alone against a more ruthless army of the dead?!

I feel like this argument is stuffing a square peg into a round hole. You guys preach this weird, "if she cared about the north why not fight" BS. Her fighting was irrelevant. You "play" with the toys the gods give you. She isn't a knight, a fighter or a duelist. Stop thinking like D&D where if she isn't an alpha female who can beat guys up, she isn't worth anything. It's lazy. 

[Wik]

5 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Well, I never appreciated the Bran storyline so much anyway, so it is difficult for me to argue against you, but I believe Bran's arc suffers from too less explanation, maybe even from to much phantasy stuff.

However, I always really liked Arya's storyline from sweet tomboy to assassin, also involving her emotional and personality development. I am somehow afraid of how her arc might end, but I don't think that refusing Gendry's propasal is out of character, nor is leaving for King's Landing. I don't unterstand why she does not intend to return to Winterfell, though. 

This is my exact point/gripe

[Nightwish]

7 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

If she didn't want Jon to go south, why would she tell Tyrion that Jon has a strong claim (if not the only true claim) to the Iron Throne?

It doesn't make sense. If anything, that will keeps him in the south...

 

Because that’s where she had always wanted to be. Sansa is obviously jealous of Dany. She couldn’t win over Cersei so she rested in the North but I am sure that now with Dany and John revelation she saw a new opportunity to destroy her and rule through John. That’s why she is not happy with the north and she is plotting behind John’s back. 

Its impressive that even during the battle with the Night King she was trying to manipulate Tyrion with their marriage, saying that Dragon Queen was the problem. 

[Kajjo]

6 minutes ago, Wik said:

This is my exact point/gripe

Let's wait and see how it develops. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

10 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

If she didn't want Jon to go south, why would she tell Tyrion that Jon has a strong claim (if not the only true claim) to the Iron Throne?

It doesn't make sense. If anything, that will keeps him in the south...

 

She's frustrated and has very little power to get him to stay, she only used that as a last resort. You could sense her anxiety for Jon in that scene. The only power she has is to signal to a sympathetic ear that Jon is the better choice. She's hoping Tyrion or Varys will be Jon's ally in the South, because he needs them. She also clearly sent Arya to watch over Jon. The cut off scene in their meeting is how the show signals "Stark plotting." We have no confirmation of her putting him on the throne yet anyway. 

[Wik]

1 minute ago, Nightwish said:

Because that’s where she had always wanted to be. Sansa is obviously jealous of Dany. She couldn’t win over Cersei so she rested in the North but I am sure that now with Dany and John revelation she saw a new opportunity to destroy her and rule through John. That’s why she is not happy with the north and she is plotting behind John’s back.  

Aside from a possible marriage (we will count that one out here, unless that is the SPECIFIC event you are referring to without referring to it...), how would Sansa rule through Jon? 

[Nightwish]

2 minutes ago, Wik said:

Aside from a possible marriage (we will count that one out here, unless that is the SPECIFIC event you are referring to without referring to it...), how would Sansa rule through Jon? 

As she does now, ignoring him and spreading her decisions. 

[anjulibai]

Sansa would rule through Jon by manipulation. 

[King Jon Snow Stark]

7 minutes ago, Wik said:

Aside from a possible marriage (we will count that one out here, unless that is the SPECIFIC event you are referring to without referring to it...), how would Sansa rule through Jon? 

Hand of the King.... 

[BlackLightning]

2 minutes ago, Wik said:

Aside from a possible marriage (we will count that one out here, unless that is the SPECIFIC event you are referring to without referring to it...), how would Sansa rule through Jon? 

From a thousand miles of away no less.

That's my question.

3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She's frustrated and has very little power to get him to stay, she only used that as a last resort. You could sense her anxiety for Jon in that scene. The only power she has is to signal to a sympathetic ear that Jon is the better choice. She's hoping Tyrion or Varys will be Jon's ally in the South, because he needs them. She also clearly sent Arya to watch over Jon. The cut off scene in their meeting is how the show signals "Stark plotting." We have no confirmation of her putting him on the throne yet anyway. 

How can she hope Tyrion will be Jon's ally in the south when Tyrion clearly has a massive blind spot when it comes to his irreputable family members. He trusted Cersei when he has absolutely no reason to trust her and he knows her well. That alone is a red flag; Sansa was just castigating him about that two episodes ago. "I once thought you were the cleverest man I had ever met." Clearly, cleverness has an expiration date.

How can she hope that Varys will be Jon's ally? How many kings has Varys served under only for Varys to jump ship for another because he cares about the realm? No, if he cares about the realm, he would have picked one good one and stuck with it.

 

[lakin1013]

Just now, Nightwish said:

As she does now, ignoring him and spreading her decisions. 

With many good reasons, Sansa has very little interest or respect for men.  She sees them as pieces to be moved in a game -- a female Littlefinger -- just what we needed.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Just now, Jabar of House Titan said:

From a thousand miles of away no less.

That's my question.

How can she hope Tyrion will be Jon's ally in the south when Tyrion clearly has a massive blind spot when it comes to his irreputable family members. He trusted Cersei when he has absolutely no reason to trust her and he knows her well. That alone is a red flag; Sansa was just castigating him about that two episodes ago. "I once thought you were the cleverest man I had ever met." Clearly, cleverness has an expiration date.

How can she hope that Varys will be Jon's ally? How many kings has Varys served under only for Varys to jump ship for another because he cares about the realm? No, if he cares about the realm, he would have picked one good one and stuck with it.

 

Well clearly she's trying anything she can to raise the issue that hey, Jon is better than your kween. It plants a seed. And Varys saw the potential! Varys was dropping truth bombs this episode.

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 minute ago, lakin1013 said:

With many good reasons, Sansa has very little interest or respect for men.  She sees them as pieces to be moved in a game -- a female Littlefinger -- just what we needed.

I hope you said the same thing about Sam, he wanted to do exactly what Sansa is doing.

[anjulibai]

Sansa is manipulating Tyrion. She's a major manipulator now, just like Littlefinger. 

I wouldn't trust anything she says or does to be what she actually thinks. 

She says she doesn't ever want to return to King's Landing? Yeah, not buying it. 

[anjulibai]

1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I hope you said the same thing about Sam, he wanted to do exactly what Sansa is doing.

Different reasons, though. Sam because he wants Jon to lead, Sansa because she wants Sansa to lead.