Sansa breaking her oath and the Anti-Daenerys conspiracy

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Wik said:

Have we NOT learned, time after time, in this series, that wielding a weapon is NOT always the best way to fix something or make your best case? 

The pen can be mightier than the sword. We saw it with Tywin, LF, and a slew of others. Exactly WHAT purpose would have been served by having ANYONE, not just Sansa, in the field of battle who literally has no skill or knowledge or how to use a weapon, let alone against a more ruthless army of the dead?!

I feel like this argument is stuffing a square peg into a round hole. You guys preach this weird, "if she cared about the north why not fight" BS. Her fighting was irrelevant. You "play" with the toys the gods give you. She isn't a knight, a fighter or a duelist. Stop thinking like D&D where if she isn't an alpha female who can beat guys up, she isn't worth anything. It's lazy. 

When you're in a situation in a war zone and can't defend yourself like when the wights attacked the civilians in the crypts, you're a liability. Or Sansa should have taken lessons from Jon, Brienne or Arya. Jon did say that everyone between 10 and 60 was supposed to be learning to use weapons in S7E1, and Sansa's no exception. 

[Ser Lepus]

What bothers me most isn't the oathbreaking... it is the fact that it is useless... People in the south aren't going to accept Ned Stark's bastard as the secret trueborn son and heir of Raeghar Targayren so easily...

Everybody knows who Dany is. Everybody knows she has brought dragons back. She even has the looks... But Jon? He is unknown beyond the North, and everybody who knows about him knows that he is Ned Stark's son. He doesn't have the Targayren looks, he didn't bring dragons back... Yes he rode one, but only because Dany allowed it...

If Sansa doesn't meddle, Jon marries Dany and his son may sit on the Iron Throne one day, while Sansa gets to rule the North. On the other hand, if Sansa manages to drive a wedge between Dany and Jon, she will either get Jon killed, or provoke a war between the North and the rest of the Seven Kingdoms...

Or she may even help Cersei to win the war by making Jon and Dany fight each other...

[Rose of Red Lake]

11 minutes ago, Mystical said:

He sneakily finds a way around that oath by having Bran explain it instead of himself. But he still broke his oath, yet people have no problem with that it seems. 

Right! Wow I didnt catch that. Who the fuck is Dany to dictate this anyway. Bran and Sam have the knowledge, they could tell anyone they please. 

[King Jon Snow Stark]

2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Right! Wow I didnt catch that. Who the fuck is Dany to dictate this anyway. Bran and Sam have the knowledge, they could tell anyone they please. 

Did he actually promise not to tell Sansa and Arya? I don't think he did. 

[Stormking902]

7 hours ago, MarieAntoinette said:

I don't know if this was on purpose, but this scene showed that Sansa is not like her father. Ned took that secret to the grave, and Sansa broke the oath.

Who did Sansa tell? 

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

2 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

What bothers me most isn't the oathbreaking... it is the fact that it is useless... People in the south aren't going to accept Ned Stark's bastard as the secret trueborn son and heir of Raeghar Targayren so easily...

Everybody knows who Dany is. Everybody knows she has brought dragons back. She even has the looks... But Jon? He is unknown beyond the North, and everybody who knows about him knows that he is Ned Stark's son. He doesn't have the Targayren looks, he didn't bring dragons back... Yes he rode one, but only because Dany allowed it...

If Sansa doesn't meddle, Jon marries Dany and his son may sit on the Iron Throne one day, while Sansa gets to rule the North. On the other hand, if Sansa manages to drive a wedge between Dany and Jon, she will either get Jon killed, or provoke a war between the North and the rest of the Seven Kingdoms...

Or she may even help Cersei to win the war by making Jon and Dany fight each other...

Sansa is smart enough to realize Dany will NEVER allow Jon to rule beside her as an equal, and is much more likely to just kill him as a threat to her reign than she is to marry him. 

She can’t stop Jon from going south and risking himself for Dany, or TO Dany as the case may be.

However, she’s passed the pertinent info to Tyrion, who still cares for her (Sansa) in the hope that he can and will help her and Jon by undermining Dany, even unintentionally.  

She said it herself - men do stupid things for women  

 

[MinscS2]

2 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Who did Sansa tell? 

Tyrion, off-screen, because of course. 

[Mystical]

9 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

If Sansa doesn't meddle, Jon marries Dany and his son may sit on the Iron Throne one day, while Sansa gets to rule the North. On the other hand, if Sansa manages to drive a wedge between Dany and Jon, she will either get Jon killed, or provoke a war between the North and the rest of the Seven Kingdoms...

Where is any of that in the current story? Dany is not pregnant as far as we know. So your scenario is a hypothetical at best. And the Dany/Jon ship doesn't need Sansa to drive a wedge between them, Dany is doing a damn fine job on her own.

6 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Did he actually promise not to tell Sansa and Arya? I don't think he did. 

Dany ordered him not to share his parentage with anyone. As Jon said in the war meeting, you do as the Queen commands.

[Rose of Red Lake]

 

7 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Did he actually promise not to tell Sansa and Arya I dont think he did. 

He defied Dany though, and it's clear she didn't want him to do it. She gave him an ultimatum. Choose ME or your FAMILY. It could be treason in Dany's eyes now because he went against her wishes, but as Mystical points out, he didnt actually do that. He was clever about it. 

Also, the "oath" Sansa "broke" - lol this isn't the NW!

Jon made them promise something before he even told them what it was. It kind of invalidates everything.

 

[Mystical]

6 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

She said it herself - men do stupid things for women

And Jon is proving this to be true over and over again this Season. He should freaking care about the well being of the people in the North but Dany said 'nope, they don't get to rest and heal' and Jon agrees immediately. He's been doing Dany's bidding all Season no matter what she says or does.

[Ser Lepus]

8 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Sansa is smart enough to realize Dany will NEVER allow Jon to rule beside her as an equal, and is much more likely to just kill him as a threat to her reign than she is to marry him. 

She can’t stop Jon from going south and risking himself for Dany, or TO Dany as the case may be.

However, she’s passed the pertinent info to Tyrion, who still cares for her (Sansa) in the hope that he can and will help her and Jon by undermining Dany, even unintentionally.  

She said it herself - men do stupid things for women  

 

Sansa said "what if there is somebody better?" She expects Tyrion to help Jon make a claim for the throne.

Also, at this point, the North can't oppose Dany; they lack the power, and on top of that they will look like a bunch of traitors if they refuse to help her back... Jon couldn't squeeze himself out of helping Dany even if he were willing.

 

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

1 minute ago, Mystical said:

And Jon is proving this to be true over and over again this Season. He should freaking care about the well being of the people in the North but Dany said 'nope, they don't get to rest and heal' and Jon agrees immediately. He's been doing Dany's bidding all Season no matter what she says or does.

Yep. He’s been proving it for years, really.  

Jon is fundamentally a good person and wants to do the right thing, but he’s got the same narrow view of honor as Ned. 

Sansa is smart enough to see it. 

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

2 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

Sansa said "what if there is somebody better?" She expects Tyrion to help Jon make a claim for the throne.

Also, at this point, the North can't oppose Dany; they lack the power, and on top of that they will look like a bunch of traitors if they refuse to help her back... Jon couldn't squeeze himself out of helping Dany even if he were willing.

 

Exactly. She’s planting the seed of doubt with Tyrion and hoping he’ll run with it. 

[Nightwish]

36 minutes ago, Wik said:

You can't see, how from her vantage point, she doesn't HAVE the North? 

You can't see how she might think that after defeating Cersei, 2 Targ drags could fly back to WF and demand WHATEVER they wanted, with very little recourse from the North? 

She is trying to secure a future from tyrants. She has perceived Dany as one and KNOWS Cersei is one. She is now acting on it, as an adult who cares for her people, not some honor bound Lady of WF who must hide the truth for some "greater good". Again, she saw a majority of her family ripped apart for that dumb shit....of course she is trying to prevent it from happening further. 

So creating a confrontation between Dany and John will not rip apart her family?

[Wik]

19 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

So creating a confrontation between Dany and John will not rip apart her family?

She is betting that him having the better claim will put Jon on the IT and curry favor for their family and house. That, along with not trusting Dany, seems like a pretty normal reason for doing what she did....

[Ser Lepus]

18 minutes ago, Wik said:

She is betting that him having the better claim will put Jon on the IT and curry favor for their family and house. That, along with not trusting Dany, seems like a pretty normal reason for doing what she did....

But again, who among the southern nobles will take Jon's claim seriously? Shouting "I am Rhaegar's trueborn son" won't make everybody fall on their knees, you know... Everybody knows about Dany's lineage, and her dragons are living proof of it... Jon, on the other hand, is known as the bastard of Ned Stark...

The shortest path to the Iron Throne would be to kiss Dany's ass, help her destroy Cersei, having Jon marry and impregnate Dany and have Arya assassinate her afterwards... but Sansa clumsily antagonizes Dany very openly, even before the battle against the Night King...

[MinscS2]

2 minutes ago, Wik said:

She is betting that him having the better claim will put Jon on the IT and curry favor for their family and house. That, along with not trusting Dany, seems like a pretty normal reason for doing what she did....

Let's be real here: Sansa actively distrusted and disliked Daenerys well before Jon's reveal.
She even did it before being able to gauge herself what kind of woman Daenerys is.

Almost nothing makes sense at this point. It's all forced, rushed and nonsensical.
Don't get me started on how a fleet managed to get the jump on a flying dragon...

[LadyOlenna]

I really love the Starks, but I don't think they should be considered oh so honorable. First of all, there's non indication of them being particularly honorable before Ned (who, by the way, was raised by Jon Arryn, whose house words are "As high as honour").

Ned sacrificed his own happiness to keep Jon alive, and that surely is honorable, but to do that he basically committed treason to Robert. It all goes back to what Jaime said to Catelyn: you can't keep faith to all oaths, as they often contradict each other.

Robb was a good guy, but he didn't act very honorably when he followed his cock by marrying Talisa.

Sansa lost her "Starkness" when she betrayed her pack for the first time, and she very significantly lost her direwolf, and she betrayed her family again and again. That said, I think she did the right thing in this episode. Jon wasn't going to press his claim, I'm very glad that Sansa told Tyrion... especially after Daenerys confirmed that she doesn't care about the people.

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

2 minutes ago, LadyOlenna said:

I really love the Starks, but I don't think they should be considered oh so honorable. First of all, there's non indication of them being particularly honorable before Ned (who, by the way, was raised by Jon Arryn, whose house words are "As high as honour").

Ned sacrificed his own happiness to keep Jon alive, and that surely is honorable, but to do that he basically committed treason to Robert. It all goes back to what Jaime said to Catelyn: you can't keep faith to all oaths, as they often contradict each other.

Robb was a good guy, but he didn't act very honorably when he followed his cock by marrying Talisa.

Sansa lost her "Starkness" when she betrayed her pack for the first time, and she very significantly lost her direwolf, and she betrayed her family again and again. That said, I think she did the right thing in this episode. Jon wasn't going to press his claim, I'm very glad that Sansa told Tyrion... especially after Daenerys confirmed that she doesn't care about the people.

It’s not that they’re less honorable than they are portrayed, it’s just that their idea of honor tends to be rigid and gets them killed more often than needed. 

They aren’t savvy to the politics of the day. 

Sansa and Arya seem to be the only Starks who have been able to get with the program and temper their honor with smart moves. 

Ned got himself killed investigating something that Jon Arryn researched much more discreetly. 

Robb married Talisa because honor dictated that he should because he deflowered her, despite the utter ruin it brought to his family. 

Sansa and Arya shrewdly used honor as a cover to eliminated Littlefinger. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

19 minutes ago, Wik said:

She is betting that him having the better claim will put Jon on the IT and curry favor for their family and house. That, along with not trusting Dany, seems like a pretty normal reason for doing what she did....

Exactly, and remember how alone and isolated Ned was in King's Landing? He had no one to support him and couldn't trust a soul. If people know Jon is a better option they will fight to protect him. Now if only Sansa would have a meeting with the Iron Bank and steal the Golden Co out from under Cersei. She could have them switch to Jon's, like LF pulling a switch on Ned. It would be epic.