Sansa breaking her oath and the Anti-Daenerys conspiracy

[MinscS2]

51 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

Not much different than Olenna Tyrell.   I wouldn't call Sana horrible at all.

I wrote this in a different topic, but I'll say it here as well:

It ultimately doesn't matter what Sansas motives or reasons are, and if her concerns are valid or not.

Instantly turning against someone who just came to save and defend you is, objectively an evil act.

 

[Smoke317]

3 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

No.

This is Ned only who was raised at the Eyrie whose words are As High as Honor. The Stark words, Winter is Coming, leave no room for luxuries like honor. This idea is the Southernized Starks, not the traditional Starks. 

The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter

 

Song and story tell us that the Starks of Winterfell have ruled large portions of the lands beyond the Neck for eight thousand years, styling themselves the Kings of Winter (the more ancient usage) and (in more recent centuries) the Kings in the North. Their rule was not an uncontested one. Many were the wars in which the Starks expanded their rule or were forced to win back lands that rebels had carved away. The Kings of Winter were hard men in hard times.

 

 

We see through Bran what Ned's father Rickard Stark told him, what Ned forgot. The 3ER showed this to Bran as one of his last visions meaning it was very important that Bran channel Rickard, not Ned. Sansa is channeling Rickard Stark and exhibiting the lesson Ned forgot. Sansa feels she has to fight. 

 

~3:00

 

Sansa?  Fight?  Are we talking about the same character?  The same one who hid in the crypts while everyone else fought & died for the North & mankind?  The same one who hasn’t killed a damn thing in 8 seasons?  The only person she smacked in 8 seasons was handicapped Robin.  So again, how is she channeling Rickard?  More like she’s been channeling Edmure Tully for 8 seasons.

[Tywin Tytosson]

14 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

I wrote this in a different topic, but I'll say it here as well:

It ultimately doesn't matter what Sansas motives or reasons are, and if her concerns are valid or not.

Instantly turning against someone who just came to save and defend you is, objectively an evil act.

 

Disagree, there.  What Sansa did was not an evil act.  Nor did she instantly turn against Dany.  She was opposed to Jon's bending the knee when she heard about it.  Sansa also made a point to voice distrust for Dany and her claim on the North in S7 ep 2 (I think).  If Dany would have agreed to leave the North be independent, Sansa would have been more agreeable.  But Dany could not do that.   Sansa could have displayed more tact, but she seems to have trouble in that dept at times.  Lyanna Mormont voiced disdain for Jon bending the knee and did not look kindly at Dany when when she arrived.  Is Lady Mormont evil?

If anything, Dany foolishly convinced herself that the North would follow Jon's lead if he bent the knee.

[Lollygag]

Just now, Smoke317 said:

Sansa?  Fight?  Are we talking about the same character?  The same one who hid in the crypts while everyone else fought & died for the North & mankind?  The same one who hasn’t killed a damn thing in 8 seasons?  The only person she smacked in 8 seasons was handicapped Robin.  So again, how is she channeling Rickard?  More like she’s been channeling Edmure Tully for 8 seasons.

There's more than one way of fighting and I highly doubt the 3ER was talking about physical fighting to Bran of all people. He was talking about all fights, and more specifically and importantly, the abstract sort. 

And Sansa did fight in the crypts but the scene was cut, probably to make the others look cooler. They did the same thing to Tyrion who we know doesn't shy from a physical fight. 

If your idea of fighting is limited to just the physical, then I'd suggest broadening yourself. This is rather inelegant, but it's D&D...

 

[MinscS2]

Just now, Tywin Tytosson said:

Disagree, there.  What Sansa did was not an evil act.  Nor did she instantly turn against Dany.  She was opposed to Jon's bending the knee when she heard about it.  Sansa also made a point to voice distrust for Dany and her claim on the North in S7 ep 2 (I think).  If Dany would have agreed to leave the North be independent, Sansa would have been more agreeable.  But Dany could not do that.   Sansa could have displayed more tact, but she seems to have trouble in that dept at times.

As soon as the learned who Jon was, she started plotting against Daenerys. The person who had literally come to defend them less than a week earlier. 

I'm not debating whether Sansa is doing the right thing or not from her own perspective, she very well may be, I'm just stating that objectively, backstabbing the person who just tried to save and protect you, is an evil act, regardless of that persons own ambitions. 

If you did something like this in a roleplaying game, the GM would ask you what alignment your character is, and the answer better not be any kind of "good".

[Smoke317]

8 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

There's more than one way of fighting and I highly doubt the 3ER was talking about physical fighting to Bran of all people. He was talking about all fights, and more specifically and importantly, the abstract sort. 

And Sansa did fight in the crypts but the scene was cut, probably to make the others look cooler. They did the same thing to Tyrion who we know doesn't shy from a physical fight. 

If your idea of fighting is limited to just the physical, then I'd suggest broadening yourself. This is rather inelegant, but it's D&D...

 

Ok. So who is Sansa fighting & planning to win against?  Cersei?  Then why are you undermining Dany & Jon’s unity (Cersei’s enemies) just before they battle Cersei by breaking Jon’s trust?   She’s only risking creating division.  Dany?  The person who has fought all the ways you implied (including picking up a sword when it was time) and risked everything to save Sansa & the North & she gets no appreciation or respect shown from Sansa.  Jon?  But she’s so pro family right?  So she couldn’t be wanting to fight & win against Jon because that would make her a gray character who does both good & bad shit but D&D have been making Sansa a Saint who gets all the credit & intelligence without having to get her hands dirty ever since they let her get raped by Ramsey & there was a fan uproar. They’ve really done her character a disservice.  

[Snormund]

I’ve thought Dany was unfit for quite some time. I admit I have a lot of personal bias against her, probably a lot of which is from Emilia Clarke’s often atrocious acting. 

So I wasn’t really upset by all this. I definitely understand the points people defending Dany are making, though, and many of them are valid. I do think there is a legitimate danger of her becoming like her father, however. 

[Lollygag]

Just now, Smoke317 said:

Ok. So who is Sansa fighting & planning to win against?  Cersei?  Then why are you undermining her enemies unity by breaking Jon’s trust.  She’s only risking creating division.  Dany?  The person who has fought all the ways you implied (including picking up a sword when it was time) and risked everything to save Sansa & the North & she gets no appreciation or respect shown from Sansa.  Jon?  But she’s so pro family right?  So she couldn’t be wanting to fight & win against Jon because that would make her a gray character who does both good & bad shit but D&D have been making Sansa a Saint who gets all the credit & intelligence without having to get her hands dirty ever since they let her get raped by Ramsey & there was an uproar. They’ve really done her character a disservice.

She's fighting for an independent North. Here's why she and the Northerners want to be independent. It's something D&D could have cleared up with a few lines here and there, but they stumble over their own feet all of the time by neglecting a few lines which would clear things up. They forgot to add that Cersei and Jaime were bro and sis in the original disastrous pilot.   She's fighting Jon because they've turned him into an idiot who needs people to babysit him for his own good. 

Agree on the character assassination. They've reduced both Sansa and Dany to cartoon characters for the sake of a Mean Girls soap opera drama and getting the accelerated time line so they could move on to other projects. 

[Howling Mad]

25 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

As soon as the learned who Jon was, she started plotting against Daenerys. The person who had literally come to defend them less than a week earlier. 

I'm not debating whether Sansa is doing the right thing or not from her own perspective, she very well may be, I'm just stating that objectively, backstabbing the person who just tried to save and protect you, is an evil act, regardless of that persons own ambitions. 

If you did something like this in a roleplaying game, the GM would ask you what alignment your character is, and the answer better not be any kind of "good".

Concur. It may not be evil  but is naive. Jon was correct that you need to acquire and maintain allies, especially those that don't necessarily like you.

[CrypticWeirwood]

14 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

The Starks are no more. One is a robot, one is an assassin who doesn't plan on coming back, one is the new little finger and the other one is a broken down cousin with dual loyalties. 

Remember that the first three demi-Starks are also half Tully, the house whose words are Family, Duty, Honor.

 

[CrypticWeirwood]

13 hours ago, #teamNightking said:

The last minute entry: Gendry Baratheon. The only one left I don't dislike. 

Maybe Davos can be his Hand?

He's Lord of Storm's End. That doesn't make him King of the Seven Kingdoms.

[White26]

I think its hard to judge personality and actions of any character in the show because we don't know how they will develop in next books.

It is not that illogical for Sansa or Varys to plot against Daenerys at this stage, before Cersei is defeated. They can prepare some plan and proceed when Cersei lose. Its one argument, not saying its valid.

But all of our arguments highlight different problem. All of them result from abbreviated, synoptic narrative in current season, everything is happening without proper preparation or clean explanation.

[Mladen]

The problem is that we have 6 episodes here and a lot of things got lost. Most of them were not even said. And they should have been. 

That is why we are so confused and couldn't tell what the characters are thinking. The season is moving too fast and nothing makes sense.

[LyaTarg]

Honestly, seeing angry Daenerys fans is filling me with glee. Angryat Sansa, angry at Jon. Ignoring that your precious queen wanted Jon to keep a secret so she can claim the throne with a lie. Before her claim was based on birthright. Now it isn't anymore. She wants Jon to play along with her charade? And Sansa is somehow the bad person for telling? Jon might as well have told Arya and Sansa before her. It's his life, the Starks are still his family. Daenerys fans are acting like spoilt children just like their queen.

[Kajjo]

16 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sansa wants to liberate Jon HOW IS THAT BAD. This entire thread is ridiculous.

What do you mean with "liberate"? Jon is entitled to have his own wishes, needs and decisions. An oath should be kept, particularly one sworn to your family in a godswood.

16 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

Bran said "it's your choice" to Jon, and it's exactly that, ONLY Jon's choice. As I see it, the worst thing is that Sansa broke Jon's trust.

Yes, fully agree.

 

[Kajjo]

14 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Varys turning against Daenerys within 5 minutes of hearing about Jon/Aegon, and starting to plan having her assassinated before Cersei is dealt with makes ABSOLUTELY - NO - SENSE - WHAT - SO - EVER. At least wait until after Cersei is dealt with...

Well, Tyrion and Varys trust each other somehow in this dialogue. That is the main issue I have with it. Why do they suddenly trust each other so deeply to discuss treason? Have they been so close before? The two main advisers of Daenerys? Maybe so, but it was not that clear before.

You say it makes no sense and I argue against it: Discussing possibilities makes always sense. Of course they have to think ahead, the may discuss all perspective and options. 

Varys turning against Daenerys and favoring Jon Snow after a few minutes makes sense to me, because Varys already earlier stated some doubts and got the warning from Daenerys to swear to her if he ever should have doubts to tell her. So Varys's doubts are not entirely new. Varys was unsure about Daenerys for quite a time now and rightly so. Daenerys is difficult and an the verge of madness.

You are right that ACTIONS before the war do not make sense. But DISCUSSIONS do make sense.

14 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

She said men in my family do not do well in the south. Sansa does care about Jon. He is a member of her family and she can want to rule and not want him to die. 

Yep.

14 hours ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Sansa doesn’t like or trust Dany, because Dany is more of the same from her perspective. 

Yes, and Sansa realises that Daenerys is dangerous. She is right with that assessment. Further, Sansa understands that Jon is blinded by his love and does not make the best decisions in the moment.

[Rose of Red Lake]

24 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

What do you mean with "liberate"? Jon is entitled to have his own wishes, needs and decisions. An oath should be kept, particularly one sworn to your family in a godswood

His wish is to NOT GO. Liberate means get him out of this abusive relationship, out of King's Landing ("how could anyone live like that?" - Jon, S7), and away from the two war mongering queens. But cant get out of it, because of duty and fear. Jon just cant walk away from Dany now. He's chained to her. He's not exactly making "free choices" otherwise he'd go with Tormund. Sansa is fighting for HIM. She is deeply troubled when Tyrion suggests Jon is NEVER coming back North. And you think this is something Jon wants too?

Also, calling Sansa an "oathbreaker" is going to look really funny if Jon actually commits treason against Dany. Waiting for it in 3...2...1...

 

 

[Nightwish]

7 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

His wish is to NOT GO. Liberate means get him out of this abusive relationship, out of King's Landing ("how could anyone live like that?" - Jon, S7), and away from the two war mongering queens. But cant get out of it, because of duty and fear. Jon just cant walk away from Dany now. He's chained to her. He's not exactly making "free choices" otherwise he'd go with Tormund. Sansa is fighting for HIM. She is deeply troubled when Tyrion suggests Jon is NEVER coming back North. And you think this is something Jon wants too?

Also, calling Sansa an "oathbreaker" is going to look really funny if Jon actually commits treason against Dany. Waiting for it in 3...2...1...

 

 

John gave his promise to help Dany in exchange for her helping the North. That’s how alliances go. Everything else is betrayal. But he is not the one committing it, Sansa is, also behind his back. Sansa betrays the alliance he made. 

[Kajjo]

8 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Liberate means get him out of this abusive relationship

Liberate out of a love relation? OK, what a strange use of "liberate". Sansa wants them to split up, yes, I can see that easily. 

9 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

and away from the two war mongering queens

No, I cannot see that. Sansa seems to want Jon to be King. To be the alternative she offered to Tyrion. So the two wannabe-queens have to be disposed off.

10 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

But cant get out of it, because of duty and fear. Jon just cant walk away from Dany now. He's chained to her. He's not exactly making "free choices" otherwise he'd go with Tormund.

Well, yes, Jon is bound by promises and reciprocation. I can follow his notions here. Daenerys saved the North and they promised each other. Sometime you are bound to your word. 

Whether Jon really would like to live north of the wall, we don't know. I take this as "I would rather have peace", no battles anymore. But not literally being North. Winterfell is his home.

[Rose of Red Lake]

26 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

John gave his promise to help Dany in exchange for her helping the North. That’s how alliances go. Everything else is betrayal. But he is not the one committing it, Sansa is, also behind his back. Sansa betrays the alliance he made. 

Ned didn't want to go south to serve Robert either. He's honoring it but its not what he wants to do in his heart. Just like, you know, he wouldn't be doing this if Dany wasnt so scary. If Tyrion is afraid if her, Jon is too. Sansa isnt afraid though.

David Nutter said Dany "lost it" on that scene with Jon. Emilia's crazy eyes alone made that clear. In the scene with Varys she's calm, but thats when she says she's going to kill innocent people. Jon hasnt clocked in to work yet in the South to hold Dany back again. Sansa is attempting to get Jon out of this drudgery. He's so much more than just Dany's handler. 

21 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Whether Jon really would like to live north of the wall, we don't know. I take this as "I would rather have peace", no battles anymore. But not literally being North. Winterfell is his home.

Yes, emotionally thats where Jon is. He's only been able to relax around his NW crew. Sansa wants to help him, thats why she's taking on the conqueror. Jon is in a toxic relationship and he's not happy. She insists he will be Ned's bastard in public. Gross.