Sansa breaking her oath and the Anti-Daenerys conspiracy

[Hodor's Dragon]

1 hour ago, Petitephlox said:

I love both Daenerys and Jon as characters, don’t get me wrong. And I don’t think either of them are without their flaws. I’m not sure either would be a better or worse ruler (and I’m not saying I think anyone would be better - who among the characters left is made out to be perfect? <snip>

Actually, I think there is an answer, there actually is one person what we could trust to be an excellent ruler:

Davos. Of course, he's about the 28th-most likely person to actually wind up warming the IT, but he would be a great king. He has it all: intelligence, experience, heart, open-mindedness, courage and coolness in a pinch, all combined with very little temper/moodiness to throw him off. He's for the little people, but too smart to try to get it all for them by way of instant revolution.

Sadly, I don't think he is even going to wind up as somebody's Hand. He definitely should.

(Sorry for going off topic.)

[Dragonslack]

So, master manipulator, hahaha. Too obvious and blatant. A mix of littlefinger and ramsay.

Maybe they're giving it to sansa after all. Danny mad, jon not subverting expectations, cerci not surprise. Bet on a woman so Sansa is the one.

 

[Nightwish]

17 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Are you not aware of what technically means? I stand by what I said. And I'll reiterate that Jon was clear on the possible outcome but did it anyhow. He could have made that oath harder to break, because Jon knows about breaking oaths. 

If you'd pay attention to the rest of the scene, Dany knowing already puts him into the Game. Ned got his head lopped off for getting entangled in the same heir issue and now Jon is headed right back into this except Jon himself is the heir. And Dany was clear that she prioritizes the throne over Jon. Do the math. Sansa was the only Stark who saw the wrong heir lop of Ned's head. They're practically whacking the viewer upside the head about Jon being the new Ned. Seriously, rewatch that scene without the routine Sansa bitching internal monologue script.

Did you miss the Joff parallels for Dany in episode 1? Sansa Jon is naively blinded by the handsome beautiful future king queen with a hidden cruel streak. They even mimic the courtyard scene. Robb side-eyes Sansa and this time Sansa side-eyes Jon. I'm not sure whether Dany would actually do anything like that, but D&D sure want us to wonder if she would. 

 

Dany saved John’s life during the battle and despite knowing his ID. And you are comparing her with Joffrey? 

Or Ned? Ned went on his own to Kings landing. John doesn’t know his Id has been revealed by his cousin. Dany can accuse him of betrayal When he is innocent. Or isn’t he and according to your sayings he also wanted to betray her so she has every right to roast him? 

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

2 hours ago, Wik said:

LOL I'm sorry I couldn't resist. I'm a butt sometimes lol

But seriously, I get that war happens. There are casualties and people die. Innocents die. But you can minimize that. To just deliberately say screw it and burn KL to the ground is literally just what Jaime tried to prevent when Aerys was king. 

Also, something I don't know because it's been a while since I did a re-read and I don't remember anything form the shows this far back, BUT:

Is there still a whole shit load of Greek fire strategically placed through the lower areas of KL? 

There should be a bunch of wildfire placed all around KL, at least in the books. I'm not sure about the show.

[Wik]

3 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

There should be a bunch of wildfire placed all around KL, at least in the books. I'm not sure about the show.

Ya, that is what I thought......so with several people here who are urging Dany to just burn down the Red Keep, by their theory, they would VERY LIKELY blow up the whole damn place....but as you said, maybe by some convenience, it isn't there in the show  

[Raksha 2014]

4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thewrap.com/game-of-thrones-jaime-cersei-daenerys-kings-landing-director-david-nutter-last-of-the-starks-season-8-episode-leaks/amp/ 

"Well, it’s not so much that Sansa tells Tyrion, but Sansa is talking to Tyrion and he suspects something in her reaction to that. So I think that comes basically through his reading Sansa’s expression more than anything else."

"Sansa betraying her family" - wow, how profound. Only every Sansa haters wet dream. 

Sansa shows no fear around Dany. Its so refreshing that she's not afraid of her. The yes-men around her are, though. We've been  watching the cultists simper and bow for 7 seasons, its getting stale. 

 

 

This quote presents Sansa's words and actions in a new light.  If this is true; then Sansa did not break her word to Jon, at least not completely; she would have been cautiously sounding out the possibility; trying to assess if Tyrion's (and perhaps others') loyalties might change if Dany was not the only Targaryen with a valid claim to the Iron Throne. 

But...if the writers wanted the audience to know that Sansa did not divulge Jon's secret to Tyrion, thereby breaking her promise; they really did not deliver that information.  As an audience, we can only really judge the words and actions of characters by what we hear and see on the show.  Unfortunately, what I saw and heard on the show strongly implies that Sansa broke her promise and told Tyrion about Jon's being the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen (that is, if Bran mentioned that Jon was legitimate).  We never saw Tyrion have that lightbulb moment connecting Sansa's hint with the rather unlikely concept that the great paragon of honor Ned Stark lied about his bastard's parentage and that Stark-looking Jon is actually the legitimate son and heir of Rhaegar or the unusual ability of Ned Stark's boy being able to ride a dragon...

Sloppy writing and/or not enough time to flesh it out a bit and have things make some sense.

[Lollygag]

Just now, Nightwish said:

Dany saved John’s life during the battle and despite knowing his ID. And you are comparing her with Joffrey? 

Or Ned? Ned went on his own to Kings landing. John doesn’t know his Id has been revealed by his cousin. Dany can accuse him of betrayal without him even knowing the reason. 

People aren't static and unchanging. You can save someone now and then try to kill them later and then back again to saving them. Season 8 especially has been about that dynamic. Hulloo! Happens all the time in this world.

It's the show that's comparing her with Joff (and others) in parallels and D&D almost had Sansa outright say as much in that scene. Don't know if they're trolling or not, but they're doing it all the same. 

The show is setting up that Dany doesn't need a real reason for suspecting Jon. Cue the new Viserys parallels for Dany. She's already there. Sansa knows how the KL works and how the throne turns into My Precious. This is what she's worried about. Jon's already in the middle of the game. And he's stupid and doesn't know what he's doing. Like Ned. 

Ned didn't go on his own. Robert was being diplomatic for the sake of their friendship, but in truth he didn't have a choice. All through, Ned most often refers to Robert not by his name or by the term "my friend", but by "the king". Jon's in the same situation. Dany's not forcing him, but Jon can't really not do it. Note that Catelyn brings up paranoia as being an automatic part of being a monarch. 

AGOT Eddard I

Yet Robert was Ned's king now, and not just a friend, so he said only, "Your Grace. Winterfell is yours." 

 

AGOT Catelyn II

"My duties are here in the north. I have no wish to be Robert's Hand."

"He will not understand that. He is a king now, and kings are not like other men. If you refuse to serve him, he will wonder why, and sooner or later he will begin to suspect that you oppose him. Can't you see the danger that would put us in?"

Ned shook his head, refusing to believe. "Robert would never harm me or any of mine. We were closer than brothers. He loves me. If I refuse him, he will roar and curse and bluster, and in a week we will laugh about it together. I know the man!"

"You knew the man," she said. "The king is a stranger to you." Catelyn remembered the direwolf dead in the snow, the broken antler lodged deep in her throat. She had to make him see. "Pride is everything to a king, my lord. Robert came all this way to see you, to bring you these great honors, you cannot throw them back in his face."

"Honors?" Ned laughed bitterly.

"In his eyes, yes," she said.

…

"The Others take both of you," Ned muttered darkly. He turned away from them and went to the window. She did not speak, nor did the maester. They waited, quiet, while Eddard Stark said a silent farewell to the home he loved. When he turned away from the window at last, his voice was tired and full of melancholy, and moisture glittered faintly in the corners of his eyes. "My father went south once, to answer the summons of a king. He never came home again."

 

 

[Lollygag]

51 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Let's be fair to Jon here: This isn't (only) about Jon being pussy-whipped or by him being honor-bound to Daenerys.

He has seen the best side of her; the self-less savior that protects people from monsters, and he owes her his life, two times over.
It will take more than some rash decisions and angry stares for him to back out of his obligations to his aunt-queen.

Maybe she'll burn down KL, maybe she won't. Until she does something that he can't stand by, he will support her, and rightly so. 
 

Yes. 

But Sansa acknowledges the possibility that it won't go well (again, IT = My Precious) and Jon will be neck deep in something he's too dumb to handle. Now he has Tyrion, Varys, etc protecting him in case. 

[Raksha 2014]

3 hours ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Maybe because the showrunners are saying it.  Sansa may end up on the Iron Throne so her fans should be happy.  It is just disingenuous to deny that she is not scheming to achieve power.    Here’s an example: https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/6/18527723/game-of-thrones-got-season-8-hbo-final-sansa-stark-arya-jon-snow-secret-heir-promise

 

Color me confused.

In the interview with David Nutter, director of The Last Stark, Nutter states that Tyrion gleaned the knowledge of Jon's true heritage from Sansa's expression and his own thought processes; that she did not tell him the secret she had promised to keep:

https://www.thewrap.com/game-of-thrones-jaime-cersei-daenerys-kings-landing-director-david-nutter-last-of-the-starks-season-8-episode-leaks/

"

There is clearly a secret-keeping problem in Winterfell, with Jon Snow’s inability to promise Daenerys that he wouldn’t tell Arya and Sansa he’s Aegon Targaryen. Can you explain how you set this up so Sansa would then tell Tyrion, and it would all spread from there?

Well, it’s not so much that Sansa tells Tyrion, but Sansa is talking to Tyrion and he suspects something in her reaction to that. So I think that comes basically through his reading Sansa’s expression more than anything else."

 

 

 

Okay, GOT show staff, did Sansa break her promise and reveal Jon's true heritage as the legitimate son and heir of Rhaegar Targaryen; or just ask a what-if question, without naming Jon, to Tyrion and did Tyrion then figure it out because he's a genius or whatever?  Make up your minds, guys; and get your commentaries straight.

If a GOT TV creator/showrunner and the director of the episode can't agree on what Sansa did or didn't tell Tyrion when the scene ended, how is the audience supposed to figure it out?

 

[Ser Lepus]

42 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

Color me confused.

In the interview with David Nutter, director of The Last Stark, Nutter states that Tyrion gleaned the knowledge of Jon's true heritage from Sansa's expression and his own thought processes; that she did not tell him the secret she had promised to keep:

https://www.thewrap.com/game-of-thrones-jaime-cersei-daenerys-kings-landing-director-david-nutter-last-of-the-starks-season-8-episode-leaks/

"

There is clearly a secret-keeping problem in Winterfell, with Jon Snow’s inability to promise Daenerys that he wouldn’t tell Arya and Sansa he’s Aegon Targaryen. Can you explain how you set this up so Sansa would then tell Tyrion, and it would all spread from there?

Well, it’s not so much that Sansa tells Tyrion, but Sansa is talking to Tyrion and he suspects something in her reaction to that. So I think that comes basically through his reading Sansa’s expression more than anything else."

 

 

 

Okay, GOT show staff, did Sansa break her promise and reveal Jon's true heritage as the legitimate son and heir of Rhaegar Targaryen; or just ask a what-if question, without naming Jon, to Tyrion and did Tyrion then figure it out because he's a genius or whatever?  Make up your minds, guys; and get your commentaries straight.

If a GOT TV creator/showrunner and the director of the episode can't agree on what Sansa did or didn't tell Tyrion when the scene ended, how is the audience supposed to figure it out?

 

BULLSHIT!!! Is Tyrion a telepath?! What drove him to make such a leap of logic?! "Sansa thinks there is somebody who will be a better king than Daenerys... OH, SEVEN!!! JON SNOW IS IN FACT THE SECRET LEGITIMATE SON OF RHAEGAR TARGAYREN AND LYANNA STARK!!!"

That's so stupid... I guess he learned the exact number of people who knew the secret reading Sansa's memories too....

[Nightwish]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

People aren't static and unchanging. You can save someone now and then try to kill them later and then back again to saving them. Season 8 especially has been about that dynamic. Hulloo! Happens all the time in this world.

It's the show that's comparing her with Joff (and others) in parallels and D&D almost had Sansa outright say as much in that scene. Don't know if they're trolling or not, but they're doing it all the same. 

The show is setting up that Dany doesn't need a real reason for suspecting Jon. Cue the new Viserys parallels for Dany. She's already there. Sansa knows how the KL works and how the throne turns into My Precious. This is what she's worried about. Jon's already in the middle of the game. And he's stupid and doesn't know what he's doing. Like Ned. 

Ned didn't go on his own. Robert was being diplomatic for the sake of their friendship, but in truth he didn't have a choice. All through, Ned most often refers to Robert not by his name or by the term "my friend", but by "the king". Jon's in the same situation. Dany's not forcing him, but Jon can't really not do it. Note that Catelyn brings up paranoia as being an automatic part of being a monarch. 

AGOT Eddard I

 

Yet Robert was Ned's king now, and not just a friend, so he said only, "Your Grace. Winterfell is yours." 

 

 

AGOT Catelyn II

 

"My duties are here in the north. I have no wish to be Robert's Hand."

 

"He will not understand that. He is a king now, and kings are not like other men. If you refuse to serve him, he will wonder why, and sooner or later he will begin to suspect that you oppose him. Can't you see the danger that would put us in?"

 

Ned shook his head, refusing to believe. "Robert would never harm me or any of mine. We were closer than brothers. He loves me. If I refuse him, he will roar and curse and bluster, and in a week we will laugh about it together. I know the man!"

 

"You knew the man," she said. "The king is a stranger to you." Catelyn remembered the direwolf dead in the snow, the broken antler lodged deep in her throat. She had to make him see. "Pride is everything to a king, my lord. Robert came all this way to see you, to bring you these great honors, you cannot throw them back in his face."

 

"Honors?" Ned laughed bitterly.

 

"In his eyes, yes," she said.

 

…

 

"The Others take both of you," Ned muttered darkly. He turned away from them and went to the window. She did not speak, nor did the maester. They waited, quiet, while Eddard Stark said a silent farewell to the home he loved. When he turned away from the window at last, his voice was tired and full of melancholy, and moisture glittered faintly in the corners of his eyes. "My father went south once, to answer the summons of a king. He never came home again."

 

 

 

 

I can’t agree because nothing shows that Dany doesn’t love John. She offered to help him even before bending the knee, she saved him twice as it was correctly mentioned before, she begged to hide his identity so she won’t have to face another front of supporters and it makes sense  since he doesn’t want the throne. 

She begged him to keep it a secret and even accepted the part that he will tell his family placing her trust on him, despite knowing that Sansa could use that against her as it happened. To put it simply she asked from John to stay out of the game for her sake. 

Sansa on the other hand had started manipulating Tyrion even from the crypts while Dany was fighting with her army and life, just above her head. She wants to weaken Dany. Missandei reminded her that she is ungrateful and this comment was not misplaced after all. 

In the inside the episode the producers confirmed that she steps into littlefingers steps wanting to create a conflict. So Sansa is the one putting John back in the game. For his own good? I don’t think so. He is not stupid, he stand up to Dany so he could share the secret with them, he has a voice of his own. But Sansa doesn’t respect that. 

Let’s say that she loves him and wants to protect him...ok...

she has no idea how Varys will take it, John has a battle in front of him and the easiest way to kill someone is in battle. 

If Cersei wins, she has made John the next target. 

If Daenarys wins she will assume he has betrayed her. 

i can’t see how in her mind she even thought that she would protect him. This is a risk she is taking.

And since John is by far protected and happy staying as he is, the only logical explanation is that her target is Dany and in extension the throne. 

Thanks for the quote from the book by the way was lovely, but I think Ned’s case is a bit irrelevant. The only true comparison I can think of is that Ned took this secret to his grave, not even trusting his wife. And Sansa managed to make it public in one day. 

[Raksha 2014]

22 minutes ago, Ser Lepus said:

BULLSHIT!!! Is Tyrion a telepath?! What drove him to make such a leap of logic?! "Sansa thinks there is somebody who will be a better king than Daenerys... OH, SEVEN!!! JON SNOW IS IN FACT THE SECRET LEGITIMATE SON OF RHAEGAR TARGAYREN AND LYANNA STARK!!!"

That's so stupid... I guess he learned the exact number of people who knew the secret reading Sansa's memories too....

 

Except that this is exactly what the director of the episode said; that Tyrion figured it out from reading Sansa's expression.  My point was not that this interpretation is valid or invalid; but that the episode director's comments indicated that Sansa did not break her promise to Jon by divulging it to Tyrion while the show's co-creator indicated that Sansa did in fact break her promise to Jon and tell Tyrion Jon's secret; and that this lack of congruence in the show's own people makes it harder for the viewers to understand what actually occurred.  If Weiss and Nutter cannot agree on Sansa's actions, how do they expect us to interpret those actions in any way that makes sense?

[Ser Lepus]

3 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

Except that this is exactly what the director of the episode said; that Tyrion figured it out from reading Sansa's expression.  My point was not that this interpretation is valid or invalid; but that the episode director's comments indicated that Sansa did not break her promise to Jon by divulging it to Tyrion while the show's co-creator indicated that Sansa did in fact break her promise to Jon and tell Tyrion Jon's secret; and that this lack of congruence in the show's own people makes it harder for the viewers to understand what actually occurred.  If Weiss and Nutter cannot agree on Sansa's actions, how do they expect us to interpret those actions in any way that makes sense?

I wasn't criticizing you, I was criticizing whoever who said that...

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

2 hours ago, Wik said:

Ya, that is what I thought......so with several people here who are urging Dany to just burn down the Red Keep, by their theory, they would VERY LIKELY blow up the whole damn place....but as you said, maybe by some convenience, it isn't there in the show  

Yep, if D&D remember about the secret wildfire all over KL and they decided to completely make Dany go insane. Then the city would blow up. I'm hoping D&D don't go down this route but who knows with those two.

[Wik]

3 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Yep, if D&D remember about the secret wildfire all over KL and they decided to completely make Dany go insane. Then the city would blow up. I'm hoping D&D don't go down this route but who knows with those two.

Exactly, agree with you 100%

[starklover]

On 5/6/2019 at 2:23 PM, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Sansa is smart enough to realize Dany will NEVER allow Jon to rule beside her as an equal, and is much more likely to just kill him as a threat to her reign than she is to marry him. 

She can’t stop Jon from going south and risking himself for Dany, or TO Dany as the case may be.

However, she’s passed the pertinent info to Tyrion, who still cares for her (Sansa) in the hope that he can and will help her and Jon by undermining Dany, even unintentionally.  

She said it herself - men do stupid things for women  

 

i agree jon is stupid in love with dany. he will do anything for her. if they rule to together if would likely never work. 

[starklover]

its dumb how in the first few seasons they had sansa weak and childlike but they dany be a superhero. 

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, Nightwish said:

I can’t agree because nothing shows that Dany doesn’t love John. She offered to help him even before bending the knee, she saved him twice as it was correctly mentioned before, she begged to hide his identity so she won’t have to face another front of supporters and it makes sense that since he doesn’t want the throne.  

She begged him to keep it a secret and even accepted the part that he will tell his families placing a trust on him, despite deep down knowing that Sansa could use that against it as she did. To put it simply she asked from John to stay out of the game for her sake. 

Sansa on the other hand had started manipulating Tyrion even from the crypts while Dany was fighting with her army and life, just above her heads. She wants to weaken Dany. Missandei reminded her that she is ungrateful and this comment was not misplaced after all. 

In the inside the episode the producers just confirm that she steps into littlefingers steps wanting to create a conflict. So Sansa is the one putting John back in the game. Let’s say that she loves him and wants to protect him...ok...

she has no idea how Varys will take it, John has a battle in front of him and the easiest way to kill someone is in battle. 

She has no idea if her little scheme will be revealed. If Cersei wins, she has made John the next target. 

If Daenarys wins she will assume he has betrayed her. Will find herself totally isolated.

i can’t see how in her mind she even thought that she would protect him. This is a risk she is taking. 

Thanks for the quote from the book by the way was lovely, but I think Ned’s case is a bit irrelevant. The only true comparison I can think of is that Ned took this secret to his grave not even trusting his wife. And Sansa managed to make it public in one day. 

I didn't say Dany doesn't love Jon. But she loves other things more. And love doesn't mean you won't kill someone especially if things go bad. The first place they look in a murder investigation is the spouse/so. And look at how that other incest couple Jaime/Cersei will be playing out at the same time on screen. Valonqar.

I don't have a problem with Sansa wanting nothing to do with the IT as it keeps destroying their family over and over. I agree with her. So scheme on if Dany keeps refusing to make some kind of Yara type deal or a Renly/Robb deal. 

Bold: It is a risk, but she sides with doing nothing as being a bigger risk. That's why she's clearly torn about her choice. And Ned and his fate are relevant. D&D had Sansa explicitly bring up the issue of Stark men who don't come back from KL in that same scene. 

 

[sweetsunray]

Dany gave Sansa reasons to be suspicious how far she is willing to go to keep Jon's secret a secret.

First thing Dany does at the feast is make Gendry a lawful Baratheon, including a lordship and a big ass castle, to gain a lifetime of loyalty, outwardly for his heroics. But she has Jon still go by his bastard name, no castle and no lordship AND keep his identity secret for the same reason: to make people believe the only choice they have is between her and Cersei and to keep them loyal to her. Sansa was the rightful heir at the time of s6 finale (cause nobody knew about Bran being alive), went through as much shit as Dany, and everybody made Jon KitN, though he was believed to be a bastard, and Sansa accepted it and worked hard to preserve the base to stay loyal to the Starks and Jon, despite him going away and bending the knee. Talk about completely two opposite choices by his cousin Sansa and his aunt Dany. Dany tries to get the throne through a lie.

On top of that, Tyrion also tried to make Bran Lord of WF. Why did he do that? To replace Sansa's political voice with another Stark.

Eff that. Keeping a secret so Jon is entirely expendable, just another one of Dany's casualties in a rushed battle, while Tyrion Lannister and Dany started to play the game of thrones and houses by attempting to fracture the unity of the Starks, is not honorable.

[Nightwish]

52 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I didn't say Dany doesn't love Jon. But she loves other things more. And love doesn't mean you won't kill someone especially if things go bad. The first place they look in a murder investigation is the spouse/so. And look at how that other incest couple Jaime/Cersei will be playing out at the same time on screen. Valonqar.

I don't have a problem with Sansa wanting nothing to do with the IT as it keeps destroying their family over and over. I agree with her. So scheme on if Dany keeps refusing to make some kind of Yara type deal or a Renly/Robb deal. 

Bold: It is a risk, but she sides with doing nothing as being a bigger risk. That's why she's clearly torn about her choice. And Ned and his fate are relevant. D&D had Sansa explicitly bring up the issue of Stark men who don't come back from KL in that same scene. 

 

Yes exactly, Dany’s existence is linked to the throne as Emilia Clark says in an interview https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/emilia-clarke-says-dany-and-jons-problem-is-theyre-up-for-the-same-promotion

and John doesn’t want the throne and it’s evident that since he supports her there is no problem.  But from the moment she will believe he betrayed her the conflict starts. 

That’s what Sansa created. A “rivalry” for the throne that doesn’t exist because John isn’t interested. And that’s a dirty trick implicating him when he has no interest. 

Plus the narrative suffers once again as Weiss says she knew that Tyrion would share the secret with Varys. Varys who is what john’s Protector? Sansa hardly knows Varys apart from the fact that he is a schemer. And this could work both ways either to eliminate Dany or John. 

Ned I understand your point but in reality South didn’t kill him, it was the Vale and Little fingers orchestrated plan that killed him. Little finger who also wanted to create conflict between Ned and the Lannister’s. To my opinion Sansa should have known better as she sealed Little fingers fate herself.