Sansa breaking her oath and the Anti-Daenerys conspiracy

[Mystical]

1 hour ago, Raksha 2014 said:

I don't approve of Sansa breaking her promise to Jon, but she's not at even the lower levels of Bolton viciousness yet; and hopefully won't ever get there.

One thing I don't approve of is double standards. Jon gets around breaking his promise to Dany via a technicality. Sansa gets around breaking her promise via a technicality. And here we are, 23 pages in and all people complain about is Sansa's broken promise (that she didn't even break). Where is the 23 pages discussing Jon being the one spilling the beans and setting all of this in motion? When his queen had ordered him to keep this a secret. He doesn't deserve to be eaten by Dany's dragons? Or punished physically?

God, the sexism is strong in this fandom. I can't see any other justification why so few call out Jon but rip Sansa to shreds. Why they wish punishment on her but not on Jon. And lets not even talk about wishing violence on a woman who has already suffered some of the worst forms of violence.

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

35 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

She does, Arya does.  Just about all of the remaining Northern nobility wants it.  Jon is the only one who bent the knee.

 

Sansa doesn't hate Dany.  Sansa doesn't trust Dany.  The goals of both conflict.  Sansa does lack for tact.  Dany lacks for the ability to compromise, it seems.

Arya couldn’t seem to care less about the concept of Northern independence. She’s literally said not a single word about it. 

The only Northerner we see pressing the issue besides Sansa is Lyanna Mormont. 

Totally agree about Sansa lacking tact, and Dany being unable to compromise.

Not compromising is Dany’s whole arc, actually. That’s not good for her long term. 

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

5 minutes ago, Mystical said:

One thing I don't approve of is double standards. Jon gets around breaking his promise to Dany via a technicality. Sansa gets around breaking her promise via a technicality. And here we are, 23 pages in and all people complain about is Sansa's broken promise (that she didn't even break). Where is the 23 pages discussing Jon being the one spilling the beans and setting all of this in motion? When his queen had ordered him to keep this a secret. He doesn't deserve to be eaten by Dany's dragons? Or punished physically?

God, the sexism is strong in this fandom. I can't see any other justification why so few call out Jon but rip Sansa to shreds. Why they wish punishment on her but not on Jon. And lets not even talk about wishing violence on a woman who has already suffered some of the worst forms of violence.

Jon never promised Dany anything. She asked him to withhold the information, and he told her pretty much flat out he wouldn’t agree to her terms. She never ordered him to keep his mouth shut, but probably should have. 

Sansa did swear to keep the secret Jon was entrusting her with, and in front of a heart tree no less. She spoke the actual words - I swear it. 

[Tywin Tytosson]

8 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Arya couldn’t seem to care less about the concept of Northern independence. She’s literally said not a single word about it. 

Hmm....true.  She hasn't. 

8 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

The only Northerner we see pressing the issue besides Sansa is Lyanna Mormont. 

Dont forget Robett Glover.   

And the northern lords who grumbled agreement with Lyanna when she upbraided Jon.  But that's not 'pressing the issue' is it?

 

8 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Totally agree about Sansa lacking tact, and Dany being unable to compromise.

Not compromising is Dany’s whole arc, actually. That’s not good for her long term. 

 I agree - that isn't good for Dany's long term.

[MinscS2]

30 minutes ago, Mystical said:

One thing I don't approve of is double standards. Jon gets around breaking his promise to Dany via a technicality. Sansa gets around breaking her promise via a technicality. And here we are, 23 pages in and all people complain about is Sansa's broken promise (that she didn't even break). Where is the 23 pages discussing Jon being the one spilling the beans and setting all of this in motion? When his queen had ordered him to keep this a secret. He doesn't deserve to be eaten by Dany's dragons? Or punished physically?

If Jon had sworn to keep it a secret, he would've. But he never agrees to keeping silent about it, and all but says outright that he won't.
Daenerys could, as his queen, have ordered him to keep it a secret, but she never does. She beg's, but doesn't force him. 

Sansa on the other hand, literally swore to Jon on keeping it a secret (and under a Heart tree), and then proceeded to break her promise/oath 5 minutes later. 

There are no double standards here, as the situations are very different. 
 

Quote

God, the sexism is strong in this fandom.
I can't see any other justification why so few call out Jon but rip Sansa to shreds. Why they wish punishment on her but not on Jon. And lets not even talk about wishing violence on a woman who has already suffered some of the worst forms of violence.

Oh please. This has nothing to do with sexism.
Sansa could've been a young man called Sanso and most people would think the same of her(his) actions. 

Sansas story is a depressing one, but that doesn't mean that people aren't allowed to dislike her due to what she says or her actions. (Same with Daenerys, who has also suffered some of the worst forms of violence, yet receives a lot of hate.)
S7 and S8 in particular doesn't really paint Sansa in a good light. I've always felt sorry for Sansa and wished for her to find some happiness in her life, but the last two seasons has managed to turn my pity into dislike. (which is not the same as wishing physical harm upon her.)

Ultimately this is fiction, and wishing harm or even ill fortune on a fictitious character is not the same as wishing harm or ill fortune on a real person. And let's not pretend that many of the male characters aren't getting hate thrown their way either.

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

6 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

Hmm....true.  She hasn't. 

Dont forget Robett Glover.   

And the northern lords who grumbled agreement with Lyanna when she upbraided Jon.  But that's not 'pressing the issue' is it?

 

 I agree - that isn't good for Dany's long term.

House Glover didn’t even bother to show up for the announcement that the KitN has abdicated, and therefore gets no credit for the class.

yes, there was grumbling. But only the little girl stood up and made her point known. 

[starklover]

people have always hated sansa for some reason.  sansa has gone though way more then dany. 

[starklover]

16 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

If Jon had sworn to keep it a secret, he would've. But he never agrees to keeping silent about it, and all but says outright that he won't.
Daenerys could, as his queen, have ordered him to keep it a secret, but she never does. She beg's, but doesn't force him. 

Sansa on the other hand, literally swore to Jon on keeping it a secret (and under a Heart tree), and then proceeded to break her promise/oath 5 minutes later. 

There are no double standards here, as the situations are very different. 
 

Oh please. This has nothing to do with sexism.
Sansa could've been a young man called Sanso and most people would think the same of her(his) actions. 

Sansas story is a depressing one, but that doesn't mean that people aren't allowed to dislike her due to what she says or her actions. (Same with Daenerys, who has also suffered some of the worst forms of violence, yet receives a lot of hate.)
S7 and S8 in particular doesn't really paint Sansa in a good light. I've always felt sorry for Sansa and wished for her to find some happiness in her life, but the last two seasons has managed to turn my pity into dislike. (which is not the same as wishing physical harm upon her.)

Ultimately this is fiction, and wishing harm or even ill fortune on a fictitious character is not the same as wishing harm or ill fortune on a real person. And let's not pretend that many of the male characters aren't getting hate thrown their way either.

jon and tyrion get a lot of hate. 

[starklover]

43 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Arya couldn’t seem to care less about the concept of Northern independence. She’s literally said not a single word about it. 

The only Northerner we see pressing the issue besides Sansa is Lyanna Mormont. 

Totally agree about Sansa lacking tact, and Dany being unable to compromise.

Not compromising is Dany’s whole arc, actually. That’s not good for her long term. 

i agree she cant compromise. if she would have tried to compromise with sansa maybe she wouldnt turned on her. 

[north of the wall]

22 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

House Glover didn’t even bother to show up for the announcement that the KitN has abdicated, and therefore gets no credit for the class.

yes, there was grumbling. But only the little girl stood up and made her point known. 

Glover refused to come to Winterfell because Jon bent the knee. Rewatch the scene that is what Sansa tells him. Also all the grumbling was the shows way of saying many northern lords agree, they can't waste screen time on ALL of them saying so.

Jon got Bran to tell so he didn't have to feel guilty about betraying Dany, at least that's the way I read the scene, and I've decided if he gets out of it on that technicality then Sansa can to. She didn't swear not to repeat what Bran told her. It wasn't a fair thing to ask of Sansa and Arya, just like it's not fair of Dany to beg Jon. Most people process new info by talking about it!

[starklover]

1 hour ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

 

Sansa is nowhere near 'Bolton status'.   She's not vicious.  She is on the way to becoming ruthless, but that's different.  The North is hard and leads to hard people.

 

As a side comment, I'll mention again that "historically" the Starks and Boltons were not that much different.  Well... disregarding things like the Boltons' passion of flaying people alive.

i dont get how when dany is ruthless people call her a hero and sansa is ruthless people call her evil. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

"Never tell. To anyone, ever. Never tell them who you really are." 

You're ....Reek.

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

2 minutes ago, north of the wall said:

Glover refused to come to Winterfell because Jon bent the knee. Rewatch the scene that is what Sansa tells him. Also all the grumbling was the shows way of saying many northern lords agree, they can't waste screen time on ALL of them saying so.

Jon got Bran to tell so he didn't have to feel guilty about betraying Dany, at least that's the way I read the scene, and I've decided if he gets out of it on that technicality then Sansa can to. She didn't swear not to repeat what Bran told her. It wasn't a fair thing to ask of Sansa and Arya, just like it's not fair of Dany to beg Jon. Most people process new info by talking about it!

I will rewatch. I only remember Sansa saying house Glover is staying at Deepwood Motte. Honestly though, why weren’t they already at Winterfell? Aren’t all the rest of the Northern houses there?

Lots of quibbling over the idea of the reality of the promise and how it applies to Dany/Jon/Sansa/Bran. If you’re looking for loopholes to avoid your sworn promises, you’ve already got a problem with promises. 

[MinscS2]

2 minutes ago, starklover said:

people have always hate sansa for some reason.  sansa has gone though way more then dany. 

I'm not so sure really, it's a pretty gloom contest regardless.

Sansa is currently 20, Daenerys is currently 23.

Before the show began:
- Daenerys spent the first ~17 years of her life being physically, sexually and mentally abused and oppressed by her older brother, her only remaining family.
- Sansa spent the first ~13 years of her life in relative happiness and comfort at Winterfell with her family, basically polar opposite of Daenerys.

After show began:

Sansa spent ~6 months in King's Landing with her sister and father before shit hit the fan.
Sansa spent ~3 years as a hostage in King's Landing, being physically and mentally abused and oppressed by many, but mostly Joffrey.
Sansa spent ~1 year as LF's psuedo-hostage. Not really suffering, but not being happy either.
Sansa spent ~6 months as Ramsays victim. Now these 6 months
Sansa spent ~2 years fighting (for her family mostly), while being relatively safe and happy.

Daenerys spent ~1 year as Drogo's wife, initially a relation that was very comparable to that of Sansas with Ramsay, but she turned it around.
Daenerys spent ~1 year suffering in the red waste and at the hands of XXD/Pyat Pree. 
Daenerys spent ~4 years fighting (for herself and her cause mostly), while being relatively safe and happy.

They've both been wed of against their will, been raped, kidnapped, abused, fought and suffered at others hands.

Ultimately I'd say that Daenerys has objectively spent a much larger part of her life suffering and being abused/oppressed, but since most of it happened off camera before the show began, people tend to overlook it. 

[starklover]

6 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

I'm not so sure really, it's a pretty gloom contest regardless.

Sansa is currently 20, Daenerys is currently 23.

Before the show began:
- Daenerys spent the first ~17 years of her life being physically, sexually and mentally abused and oppressed by her older brother, her only remaining family.
- Sansa spent the first ~13 years of her life in relative happiness and comfort at Winterfell with her family, basically polar opposite of Daenerys.

After show began:

Sansa spent ~6 months in King's Landing with her sister and father before shit hit the fan.
Sansa spent ~3 years as a hostage in King's Landing, being physically and mentally abused and oppressed by many, but mostly Joffrey.
Sansa spent ~1 year as LF's psuedo-hostage. Not really suffering, but not being happy either.
Sansa spent ~6 months as Ramsays victim. Now these 6 months
Sansa spent ~2 years fighting (for her family mostly), while being relatively safe and happy.

Daenerys spent ~1 year as Drogo's wife, initially a relation that was very comparable to that of Sansas with Ramsay, but she turned it around.
Daenerys spent ~1 year suffering in the red waste and at the hands of XXD/Pyat Pree. 
Daenerys spent ~4 years fighting (for herself and her cause mostly), while being relatively safe and happy.

They've both been wed of against their will, been raped, kidnapped, abused, fought and suffered at others hands.

Ultimately I'd say that Daenerys has objectively spent a much larger part of her life suffering and being abused/oppressed, but since most of it happened off camera before the show began, people tend to overlook it. 

sansa was  locked in a room while married to ramsay  and there was no way she could have turned around. she saw her dad get beheaded. dany was abused by her  psycho brother for most of her childhood it seemed. 

[MinscS2]

33 minutes ago, starklover said:

jon and tyrion get a lot of hate. 

Everyone gets a lot of hate.

30 minutes ago, starklover said:

i agree she cant compromise. if she would have tried to compromise with sansa maybe she wouldnt turned on her. 

While Daenerys hasn't really shown much willingness to compromise the last season, let's not pretend that Sansa wasn't openly antagonistic towards her before they even brought up the notion of northern independence. 

24 minutes ago, starklover said:

i dont get how when dany is ruthless people call her a hero and sansa is ruthless people call her evil. 

You're generalizing. 

Sansa has done very few things I'd consider evil. Turning on Daenerys after she just fought to save the north is probably the only remotely evil thing she has done. She might have her reasons for doing it (she talks about "distrust"), but ultimately what she is doing would in a RPG-setting be considered an evil act. You don't turn on an ally who just tried to save you, regardless of your personal opinion of said ally.

Daenerys on her part, has done plenty of ruthless, possibly even cruel deeds, which sometimes border on being evil from an objective standpoint, but they are never done for the sake of being evil, even if it comes across that way. 

Ultimately, neither of these characters are inherently evil, but circumstances pushes them to do stuff that can easily be perceived that way. In the real world, both of them would have PTSD and require weekly visits to a shrink. 

[Tywin Tytosson]

18 minutes ago, starklover said:

i dont get how when dany is ruthless people call her a hero and sansa is ruthless people call her evil. 

Me neither.  Sansa is in no way evil.

My guess is that Dany did accomplish more than Sansa and has helped more people (Grey Worm, Missandei, etc).

Perhaps folks who like Dany don't like the fact that Sansa does not.

[MinscS2]

1 minute ago, starklover said:

sansa was  locked in a room while married to ramsay  and there was no way she could have turned around.  

And Daenerys was essentially left in a tent in the middle of "nowhere", just waiting for her husband to come home and force himself on her every night, until she ultimately managed to turn things around for the better.  

I'm not gonna call Daenerys relationship with Drogo equal to that of Sansas and Ramsays (that would be preposterous), but for a time, the amount of suffering and abuse both girls got at the hands of their "husbands" where comparable. 

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

Are we really trying to justify the behavior of fictional women by assigning levels of appropriate response to traumatic events in their lives? 

Who experienced the more terrifying assaults, and how does that affect her behavior? 

No. 

[north of the wall]

21 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

 

Lots of quibbling over the idea of the reality of the promise and how it applies to Dany/Jon/Sansa/Bran. If you’re looking for loopholes to avoid your sworn promises, you’ve already got a problem with promises. 

Well thats true. I dont think either way you look at it deserves the type of hate Sansa gets though. I'm fine with her breaking the promise or looking for loopholes (really me looking for loopholes for these types of threads) I don't think breaking a promise makes you a bad person, or means she wasn't in the right. 

I'm pretty sure the Glovers were the only Northern house North of Winterfell to not attend Winterfell, but there would have been other house further south who didn't come. I didn't see the Reeds.