Sansa breaking her oath and the Anti-Daenerys conspiracy

[Mystical]

23 minutes ago, LadyOlenna said:

I really love the Starks, but I don't think they should be considered oh so honorable. First of all, there's non indication of them being particularly honorable before Ned (who, by the way, was raised by Jon Arryn, whose house words are "As high as honour").

Even Ned wasn't honorable. He honored his sister's wish to protect Jon but dishonored his wife in the process. He killed innocent (like Lady) because his King told him to. He could have prevented the War of the 5 Kings if he had taken Renly's offer instead of clinging to succession rules. Hell Jamie saved half a million people by killing the Mad King yet he has a reputation as a dishonorable guy because of Ned Stark. I guess Ned Stark would have let KL burn just so long as he didn't dishonor the rules. Ned Stark might have the reputation as an honorable guy but he's far from it. And his rigid sense of honor did more harm than it did good.

28 minutes ago, LadyOlenna said:

Sansa lost her "Starkness" when she betrayed her pack for the first time, and she very significantly lost her direwolf, and she betrayed her family again and again. That said, I think she did the right thing in this episode. Jon wasn't going to press his claim, I'm very glad that Sansa told Tyrion... especially after Daenerys confirmed that she doesn't care about the people.

When did Sansa betray her family on the show? She didn't side with the Lannisters during the Trident incident even though she was duty bound to do so. As a punishment by Cersei, she lost her direwolf. Said innocent wolf was killed by oh so honorable Ned Stark because his King said so. But when did she betray her family over and over again on the show? I guess you could make an argument for Battle of the Bastards but I don't remember any other instance on the show. And no, a letter written under duress (which everyone knew was nothing and meant nothing) does not count.

23 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Now if only Sansa would have a meeting with the Iron Bank and steal the Golden Co out from under Cersei. She could have them switch to Jon's, like LF pulling a switch on Ned. It would be epic. 

Except Sansa has no capital. The North is devastated after years of wars and the Long Night and Cersei did pay them handsomely. I can't think of anything that Sansa could offer because for the IB it's all about money.

[LucyMormont]

2 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Varys turning against Daenerys within 5 minutes of hearing about Jon/Aegon, and starting to plan having her assassinated before Cersei is dealt with makes ABSOLUTELY - NO - SENSE - WHAT - SO - EVER. At least wait until after Cersei is dealt with...

But then neither does him and Tyrion sitting in the throne room, talking loudly about betraying Daenerys so...
So much for Master of Whisperers.

But did he plan to have her assassinated? He didn't answer Tyrion's question.

I agree that this makes no sense. Not only because taking Cersei out of that chair before she becomes more powerful is a priority, but also because the Dothrakis and Unsullied that survived "the only war that matters" (that apparently are half of them, despite we saw only 4 Dothrakis come back) are loyal to her, and who knows what their reaction could be if Dany is murdered.  They are now traveling with Jon and taking orders from him because Dany said so, nothing more.

But AFTER Rhaegal and Missandei got killed, I can perfectly see Varys turning against Danaerys even before Cersei is dealt with, because the way she would be dealt with is as important as kicking her out. If Varys thinks that Dany would go all fire and blood over King's Landing and to hell with the innocent population, he would try to stop it by all means.

[Wik]

1 hour ago, Ser Lepus said:

But again, who among the southern nobles will take Jon's claim seriously? Shouting "I am Rhaegar's trueborn son" won't make everybody fall on their knees, you know... Everybody knows about Dany's lineage, and her dragons are living proof of it... Jon, on the other hand, is known as the bastard of Ned Stark...

The shortest path to the Iron Throne would be to kiss Dany's ass, help her destroy Cersei, having Jon marry and impregnate Dany and have Arya assassinate her afterwards... but Sansa clumsily antagonizes Dany very openly, even before the battle against the Night King...

Oh, I won't argue that what she is doing or how isn't efficient. It certainly is not and there are better ways to go about it. Won't argue that for a minute. But She isn't thinking about ALL of that, she is seeing the opportunity NOW and taking it best as she can, NOW. 

 

Also, I completely disagree about the lineage thing for Jon. We already are seeing people in Dany's camp split over it. No one is questioning it. It isn't a leap, the incident with Lyanna is still in relative near history, people don't dispute that her and Rhaegar were together (forced or not is another story), but it is not AT ALL a reach for people to put together a few pieces of the puzzle. And at the end of the day, it's the lords who matter and it it is VERY common knowledge among them. And as they said in the show, they would prefer a benevolent king with a cock and a better claim, to Dany. 

[Nightwish]

1 hour ago, Wik said:

She is betting that him having the better claim will put Jon on the IT and curry favor for their family and house. That, along with not trusting Dany, seems like a pretty normal reason for doing what she did....

Sansa gets in the middle and does exactly the opposite of what is needed and asked from her. Apparently when she tells Tyrion is not only the fact that she betrays John’s trust but she exposes her “brother” to Dany. Dany can later believe that John had planned to betray her  and just pretended to bend the knee because he couldn’t deal himself with the Night King and Cersei. But this was not John but Sansa. I mean Sansa pretended to accept her and now looks for a way to get rid of her. So in the extreme scenario that Dany accuses John of betrayal while he is innocent what will Sansa do? 

The ironic part being that John never wanted the throne. Sansa though projects her own wishes or needs either for safety or power to John. So she doesn’t care what he wants eventually. 

 

[Wik]

1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

Let's be real here: Sansa actively distrusted and disliked Daenerys well before Jon's reveal.
She even did it before being able to gauge herself what kind of woman Daenerys is.

Almost nothing makes sense at this point. It's all forced, rushed and nonsensical.
Don't get me started on how a fleet managed to get the jump on a flying dragon...

LOL I agree with everything you said here......she disliked her because she was an outsider who wanted to, essentially, take over the north again. She didn't want or need to give her any time to "prove" herself because of that alone. 

And yes, you are right, I am absolutely hate watching the show at this point. It's all rushed, hurried, total BS, unrealistic, quick, crappy bow-tie fixes to complex situations that aren't getting resolved properly. A real shit-show....no pun intended.......or was it? 

[LadyOlenna]

3 hours ago, Mystical said:

Even Ned wasn't honorable. He honored his sister's wish to protect Jon but dishonored his wife in the process. He killed innocent (like Lady) because his King told him to. He could have prevented the War of the 5 Kings if he had taken Renly's offer instead of clinging to succession rules. Hell Jamie saved half a million people by killing the Mad King yet he has a reputation as a dishonorable guy because of Ned Stark. I guess Ned Stark would have let KL burn just so long as he didn't dishonor the rules. Ned Stark might have the reputation as an honorable guy but he's far from it. And his rigid sense of honor did more harm than it did good.

When did Sansa betray her family on the show? She didn't side with the Lannisters during the Trident incident even though she was duty bound to do so. As a punishment by Cersei, she lost her direwolf. Said innocent wolf was killed by oh so honorable Ned Stark because his King said so. But when did she betray her family over and over again on the show? I guess you could make an argument for Battle of the Bastards but I don't remember any other instance on the show. And no, a letter written under duress (which everyone knew was nothing and meant nothing) does not count.

Except Sansa has no capital. The North is devastated after years of wars and the Long Night and Cersei did pay them handsomely. I can't think of anything that Sansa could offer because for the IB it's all about money.

I agree that Ned was not honorable. As regards Sansa, she betrayed her family at least twice, and I'm not talking about the letter. When asked by the king what happened near the Trident, she said she didn't remember. If she had told the truth Lady would (probably) still be alive, but above all she would have been both honorable and on the side of her family.

The second instance is when she blabs about Ned's plans to leave the capital (though now I'm not completely sure that happened in the show.)

But my point was that Sansa (as most of her family), has never been really honorable, so I don't understand why people judge her now, when she did (imho) something right.

[starklover]

11 hours ago, Faera said:

Honestly, I don't care and I can't blame her. Oaths get people nowhere - we've seen that enough times, sadly. I don't even think it was born out of her desire for power - more her belief that Jon was being a moron again. And he is.

i agree

[Mystical]

16 minutes ago, LadyOlenna said:

When asked by the king what happened near the Trident, she said she didn't remember. If she had told the truth Lady would (probably) still be alive, but above all she would have been both honorable and on the side of her family.

Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey. It was actually her DUTY, per the grooming performed on her, to side with her betrothed. That's what's expected of her. The fact that she sided with no one was actually the best move she could possibly make. And she and Lady were still punished for it by Cersei because Sansa didn't perform her duty to side with her new family. Women are nothing but things to be owned in this world, ownership of Sansa was passed from the Starks to the Baratheons by the betrothal. The Baratheons were her new family. That so many people ignore these simple facts is why the Sansa hate for this event drives me up a wall. And it wouldn't have saved Lady to tell the truth. The only things that would have saved Lady were for Sansa to completely side with Joffrey or for these parents to watch their freaking children so the whole Arya/Micah/Joffrey incident would never have occurred in the first place. Sansa siding with Arya would have not only made life for her hell with her new family but would have probably also had dire consequences for Arya.

16 minutes ago, LadyOlenna said:

The second instance is when she blabs about Ned's plans to leave the capital (though now I'm not completely sure that happened in the show.)

That's not in the show. But don't worry, plenty of people use this as en excuse to hate on show!Sansa some more.

So for me, there is no instance in this show where Sansa betrayed her family. The only case you can make where the show is concerned, might be the Battle of the Bastards.

Quote

But my point was that Sansa (as most of her family), has never been really honorable, so I don't understand why people judge her now, when she did (imho) something right.

Sansa can do nothing right. After all she is responsible for the creation of the NK. For every war ever fought in Westeros. For the deaths of all her family members. For every natural disaster ever in the history of the planet. And global warming of course.

[Bear Claw]

11 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Same here. Just... who the heck are we supposed to root for? Daenerys the Dragon Queen who wanted to burn the city? Cersei, who did burn the city? Or Sansa the Oathbreaker?

Yes, this is how I feel, too. They are all very problematic. 

[LadyOlenna]

8 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey. It was actually her DUTY, per the grooming performed on her, to side with her betrothed. That's what's expected of her. The fact that she sided with no one was actually the best move she could possibly make. And she and Lady were still punished for it by Cersei because Sansa didn't perform her duty to side with her new family. Women are nothing but things to be owned in this world, ownership of Sansa was passed from the Starks to the Baratheons by the betrothal. The Baratheons were her new family. That so many people ignore these simple facts is why the Sansa hate for this event drives me up a wall. And it wouldn't have saved Lady to tell the truth. The only things that would have saved Lady were for Sansa to completely side with Joffrey or for these parents to watch their freaking children so the whole Arya/Micah/Joffrey incident would never have occurred in the first place. Sansa siding with Arya would have not only made life for her hell with her new family but would have probably also had dire consequences for Arya.

 

So siding with her boyfriend was more important than telling the truth to the King? I don't think so. Ned said that to Arya to avoid conflicts.

10 minutes ago, Mystical said:

That's not in the show. But don't worry, plenty of people use this as en excuse to hate on show!Sansa some more.

So for me, there is no instance in this show where Sansa betrayed her family. The only case you can make where the show is concerned, might be the Battle of the Bastards.

Sansa can do nothing right. After all she is responsible for the creation of the NK. For every war ever fought in Westeros. For the deaths of all her family members. For every natural disaster ever in the history of the planet. And global warming of course.

I don't understand why you talk about Sansa haters when I was actually trying to defend her

See, I find book Sansa one of the stupidest character of the series (with her mother), and show Sansa mostly annoying, but I can recognise when she does something good.

[Mystical]

40 minutes ago, LadyOlenna said:

So siding with her boyfriend was more important than telling the truth to the King? I don't think so. Ned said that to Arya to avoid conflicts.

Did you not read anything I wrote? Because apparently not. How do people not understand feudalism that also has a major patriarchy on top of that? Joffrey was not her boyfriend, boyfriend isn't a thing in their world. Sansa was betrothed to him, aka basically married to him already. And it is her duty to side with her husband. That's what she was freaking groomed to do, that's the rules of their world. Women don't have agency. They are the property first of their father, then their husband. Sansa was given to a new family, the family that she was basically married into already via a betrothal, and it is her duty to be loyal to them.

47 minutes ago, LadyOlenna said:

I don't understand why you talk about Sansa haters when I was actually trying to defend her

You didn't defend her. You listed that as a betrayal that Sansa committed against her family. I defended her saying that wasn't part of the TV show version. And then just pointed out that plenty of people still use it as a point against Sansa.

[LadyOlenna]

31 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Did you not read anything I wrote? Because apparently not. How do people not understand feudalism that also has a major patriarchy on top of that? Joffrey was not her boyfriend, boyfriend isn't a thing in their world. Sansa was betrothed to him, aka basically married to him already. And it is her duty to side with her husband. That's what she was freaking groomed to do, that's the rules of their world. Women don't have agency. They are the property first of their father, then their husband. Sansa was given to a new family, the family that she was basically married into already via a betrothal, and it is her duty to be loyal to them.

You didn't defend her. You listed that as a betrayal that Sansa committed against her family. I defended her saying that wasn't part of the TV show version. And then just pointed out that plenty of people still use it as a point against Sansa.

There no need to be rude. I read everything you wrote.

Maybe you didn't read my first post. I said that even if Sansa betrayed her family before (if we're only talking about the show, at least she did so during the battle of the bastards), she did the right thing breaking her oath to Jon. Since this thread is about that specific betrayal, and I said she did the right thing, then yes, I'm defending her.

[Flightless bird]

What i want to know is where did Yohn Royce disappear to before the battle of Winterfell?

[Tywin Tytosson]

15 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Yes, somehow. But breaking oaths? 

Sansa's tutor Littlefinger broke many oaths.  Recall that Sansa lied to cover for him.

 

15 hours ago, Kajjo said:

She is an intrigant now, she learned the game, she turned into a cold-blooded player. Now we see her true new personality for the first time. Horrible.

Not much different than Olenna Tyrell.   I wouldn't call Sana horrible at all.

[Tywin Tytosson]

13 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

For me, the problem involves Sansa's motives. Is she for the North?  Her words say so except when we consider that Sansa could not be bothered to defend the North by taking sword lessons or learn any type of offensive skills.  Her words say so except when we consider that while in the crypts, Sansa did NOTHING to comfort her fellow Northerners.  Her words say so yet she spent time in the crypts hiding behind a headstone.  Sometimes I think Sansa doesn't like Dany because Dany is prettier than her.  And sometimes, I think about Cersei's prophecy and how Sansa and Dany are engaged in their own little ...another younger, prettier (Sansa) ... to cast down and take all she holds dear (Dany)

 

You missed the part where Sansa and Tyrion pulled out their dragonglass weapons and ran out to fight the Stark wights in the crypts.

Re. defending the North, Sans was busy managing the logistics of housing and supplying the Northern armies if or when they were called to Winterfell to fight against the Dead.  She was the de-facto ruler of the North.

[Tywin Tytosson]

35 minutes ago, Flightless bird said:

What i want to know is where did Yohn Royce disappear to before the battle of Winterfell?

Good question!  

[Tywin Tytosson]

 

3 hours ago, LadyOlenna said:

But my point was that Sansa (as most of her family), has never been really honorable, so I don't understand why people judge her now, when she did (imho) something right.

Is it World of Ice and Fire that suggsts that difference between the Starks and the Boltens was only a degree or two of kind?

Ned learned his honor from Jon Arryn and Yon Royce, if I recall.

[Tywin Tytosson]

13 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

I don't really blame Sansa for this. We finally see that she isn't the "little bird" anymore, as she said herself. Now she is finally a player and I like that. This is a game of thrones, after all. Dany burned people and crucified others for her goal that is the Iron Throne. Sansa broke an oath to secure her goal and that's independent North. I don't have a problem with it.

It wouldn't make much sense imo if Sansa opposed Dany for so long just to eventually bow her head and do nothing.

 

I have zero problem with what Sansa did.  Wasn't it Tyrion who asked Jon if he could learn to lie a little?

Quibble tho - the crucifixions weren't for the IT.  They were retribution for the crucified slaves on the road to Mereen.

[Lollygag]

13 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Right, this feels so wrong to me. 

The Starks are a pack based on honor. Sansa defiles honor and family so much here. I didn't really see this in her arc till now. She's turning un-Starkish and ruthless and dishonorable.

No.

This is Ned only who was raised at the Eyrie whose words are As High as Honor. The Stark words, Winter is Coming, leave no room for luxuries like honor. This idea is the Southernized Starks, not the traditional Starks. 

The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter

Song and story tell us that the Starks of Winterfell have ruled large portions of the lands beyond the Neck for eight thousand years, styling themselves the Kings of Winter (the more ancient usage) and (in more recent centuries) the Kings in the North. Their rule was not an uncontested one. Many were the wars in which the Starks expanded their rule or were forced to win back lands that rebels had carved away. The Kings of Winter were hard men in hard times.

 

We see through Bran what Ned's father Rickard Stark told him, what Ned forgot. The 3ER showed this to Bran as one of his last visions meaning it was very important that Bran channel Rickard, not Ned. Sansa is channeling Rickard Stark and exhibiting the lesson Ned forgot. Sansa feels she has to fight. 

Quote

Ned’s Dad Rickard Stark:

Remember that you are a Stark. Comport yourself with dignity at the Vale. And try to stay out of fights. But if you have to fight, win.

 

 

~3:00

 

[Smoke317]

13 hours ago, Bradam said:

They didn't show Sansa tell Tyrion, he could have very well found out from Bran for all we know.  

They don’t “show” Sansa doing shit but being a snarky ungrateful bitch (who the scripts say thought about murdering Arya & usurping Jon last season).  But they don’t show us that.  They make us believe she’s so smart & Jon so dumb & Arya so evil.  They just tell us she’s graduated political training school...  But can’t ever show her getting her hands dirty like every other political schemer on the show.  Her dirty shit is white washed, rationalized, & excused by Sansa fans & it’s others just being dumb (Jon, Tyrion, blacksmith) or evil (Arya & Dany).  Sansa has been nothing but dumb all show and D&D don’t have the guts to flat out show her being evil.  She supposedly learned from Cersei & Littlefinger.  So stop trying to make her a spoiled little Disney Princess.  Let her get in the mud and do some grimy shit.  Then she would be a much better character & then I’d believe she’s a great political mover & shaker.  As of now she’s still a pawn despite D&D trying to make queen moves with her...