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Kajjo

Sansa breaking her oath and the Anti-Daenerys conspiracy

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3 minutes ago, Bear42 said:

Also the idea anyone is supposed to believe Sansa didn't tell Tyrion off screen is ridiculous since that's clearly what was portrayed.

-Sansa learns secret known only to five people in the world

-Sansa has discussion with Tyrion about the topic of said secret

-Tyrion now knows secret

Claiming she didn't blab is just delusional.

Agreed. I don't care what people say in interviews, I care for what they show us in the series.

Sansa broke her oath and told Tyrion. There is no way Tyrion could have works out the claim to the throne or that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. How could he? Only Bran knows for sure.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Bear42 said:

I don't get why people are claiming that Sansa is the new Littlefinger or a master manipulator now.  Sansa is openly hostile and insubordinate, not manipulative.  Littlefinger or Varys made everyone believe they were on their side, that's what made them effective players in the game of thrones.  Sansa has not been cunning or clever in this way, just openly hostile towards allies she later predictably betrays.  The only time she really got the better of someone was because the Branbot 9000 gave her cheat codes, without him she was ready to execute her sister.  I get that the show is trying to portray her as a major player in the game now but it's not very convincing.

 

Also the idea anyone is supposed to believe Sansa didn't tell Tyrion off screen is ridiculous since that's clearly what was portrayed.

-Sansa learns secret known only to five people in the world

-Sansa has discussion with Tyrion about the topic of said secret

-Tyrion now knows secret

Claiming she didn't blab is just delusional.

Maybe because the showrunners are saying it.  Sansa may end up on the Iron Throne so her fans should be happy.  It is just disingenuous to deny that she is not scheming to achieve power.    Here’s an example: https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/6/18527723/game-of-thrones-got-season-8-hbo-final-sansa-stark-arya-jon-snow-secret-heir-promise

Edited by TheFirstofHerName

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Regarding Daenerys going mad or not, I'd like to quote @Frances Bean Corbray

Dany is MAD.  I'm sure next week she'll "go overboard" but the problem is if they're trying to sell Dany going off the rails it doesn't work that well when the people she's going off the rails against Pretty Much Have It Coming.

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9 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Maybe because the showrunners are saying it.  Sansa May end up on the Iron Throne so her fans should be happy.  It is just disengious to deny that she is not scheming to achieve power.    Here’s an example: https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/6/18527723/game-of-thrones-got-season-8-hbo-final-sansa-stark-arya-jon-snow-secret-heir-promise

I agree that she is trying to gain power, I don't mean to imply otherwise.  I'm just saying that if Varys or Littlefinger acted the way Sansa does it would've gotten them both killed.  Littlefinger acted like Joffrey's best friend right up until he had him killed.  If she really was Littlefinder 2.0 Dany would be surprised by her betrayal, not expecting it.

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9 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Regarding Daenerys going mad or not, I'd like to quote @Frances Bean Corbray
 

 

Yes, the peasants and menials of KL definitely have what is coming to them....

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Agreed.
If Littlefinger or Varys had behaved in the same way towards Cersei/Joffrey, possibly even Robert, that Sansa behaves towards Daenerys, they would've been dead seasons ago.

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1 minute ago, Bear42 said:

I agree that she is trying to gain power, I don't mean to imply otherwise.  I'm just saying that if Varys or Littlefinger acted the way Sansa does it would've gotten them both killed.  Littlefinger acted like Joffrey's best friend right up until he had him killed.  If she really was Littlefinder 2.0 Dany would be surprised by her betrayal, not expecting it.

Good point!  Daenerys knows if Jon’s claim is known that it will lead to conflict.  What is sad is that Dany has no good advisors.  She lost Barristan Selmy back in Meereen. Jorah is gone. Missandei. She is losing her dragons When she learns Jon has betrayed her....then she will go mad and won’t listen to him. 

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1 minute ago, Wik said:

Yes, the peasants and menials of KL definitely have what is coming to them....

Don't be deliberately obtuse.

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3 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Agreed.
If Littlefinger or Varys had behaved in the same way towards Cersei/Joffrey, possibly even Robert, that Sansa behaves towards Daenerys, they would've been dead seasons ago.

Sansa being Jon’s sister is the only thing that has protected her.  

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Maybe because the showrunners are saying it.  Sansa may end up on the Iron Throne so her fans should be happy.  It is just disingenuous to deny that she is not scheming to achieve power.    Here’s an example: https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/6/18527723/game-of-thrones-got-season-8-hbo-final-sansa-stark-arya-jon-snow-secret-heir-promise

If by power you mean independence from constantly having your family ruined by the IT, then sure. The generation before was nearly destroyed too. Sansa ended up with Ramsey because Ned was forced to go south. 

Most Sansa fans I come across want her to be happy which means being as far from the IT and KL as possible. 

Edited by Lollygag

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2 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Don't be deliberately obtuse.

LOL I'm sorry I couldn't resist. I'm a butt sometimes lol

But seriously, I get that war happens. There are casualties and people die. Innocents die. But you can minimize that. To just deliberately say screw it and burn KL to the ground is literally just what Jaime tried to prevent when Aerys was king. 

Also, something I don't know because it's been a while since I did a re-read and I don't remember anything form the shows this far back, BUT:

Is there still a whole shit load of Greek fire strategically placed through the lower areas of KL? :dunno:

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17 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Sansa being Jon’s sister is the only thing that has protected her.  

Interesting...So Sansa needs protection in this scenario. How is this not the mindset of "You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?" 

 

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33 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Agreed. I don't care what people say in interviews, I care for what they show us in the series.

Sansa broke her oath and told Tyrion. There is no way Tyrion could have works out the claim to the throne or that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. How could he? Only Bran knows for sure.

I'll repeat this again. Secrets revealed are followed by exposition. This can be explained by Sansa filling in the details only after Tyrion put it together. If you want to accuse her of laying out breadcrumbs for Tyrion, she's guilty of that. But she didn't technically break her oath.

And it's not as if Jon didn't know he was walking right into that. "Don't tell Sansa" is a huge thing and it was sort of brought up again when Jon reunited with Arya. Dany warned him. He did it anyhow. It's so unbelievable that some are speculating that along with some of Jon's other behaviors in this episode, it's an indication that part of him is starting to want the throne and that part was ok with Sansa getting it out. 

And if you don't care about what's said in interviews, then you need to ignore ALL interviews or it's just cherry-picking to serve a bias. 

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1 hour ago, Risto said:

Yes, but Jon is better ruler than Dany. We all know it. Even Varys and Tyrion are aware of that. He would be a better King and right now that is no longer an opinion, but a fact. So, Sansa pushing for Jon. And that is inevitably good for all of them.

As for Jaime, that is on Jaime. Not Sansa. And it is absurd to claim that she is responsible for other people's faults. Jaime;s decisions are on him, Dany's decision to march on Cersei with wounded soldiers. All of that is on them. Sansa just used their flaws to push them aside.

I love both Daenerys and Jon as characters, don’t get me wrong. And I don’t think either of them are without their flaws. I’m not sure either would be a better or worse ruler (and I’m not saying I think anyone would be better - who among the characters left is made out to be perfect? Although typing that now I do think D&D are trying to put Tyrion a bit up on the pedestal and goodness knows he has made his fair share of mistakes) ;). I do believe they both are good at heart and have noble intentions, and perhaps represent different sides of a coin, with Dany being too impulsive and Jon being too rigid. Both made the decision to leave Winterfell after the battle, remember?

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Interesting...So Sansa needs protection in this scenario. How is this not the mindset of "You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?" 

Look, I know you essentially have to mention Daenerys in a negative light every time you post for some reason, but this actually has nothing to do with Daenerys being crazy. Quite the opposite in fact.

If Varys had displayed the same level of defiance, trouble making and pettiness when dealing with Joffrey, he would've had his head.
If Littlefinger had displayed the same level of defiance, trouble making and pettiness when dealing with Cersei, she would've had his head. 

Sansa gets away with it, partly because she's Jon's sister, but also because Daenerys is neither Joffrey nor Cersei. 
(And because the script said so...). We've never seen her kill anyone simply on the basis of them acting snide...

 

Edited by MinscS2

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2 hours ago, David Selig said:

Is this a joke? Jon Snow is the dumbest person on this show and Varys and Tyrion got their lobotomies seasons ago and are currently just talking nonsense.

Well, I try to work as if these characters are the logical continuation of the storyarcs we have seen in the previous seasons, but these days everything seems so dumb.

2 hours ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

You most assuredly do not speak for me.

Well, I assume "I don't care how wounded and tired soldiers are... They are marching south for me" view is idiotic and not something a sane ruler would do, but then again...

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Sometimes one's beloved honor turns horrible results. It's a huge theme in the books.

Exactly... I don't how we got that the honor is the highest ideal when we have seen, time and again, that honor and the right thing are not always the same.

 

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54 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I'll repeat this again. Secrets revealed are followed by exposition. This can be explained by Sansa filling in the details only after Tyrion put it together. If you want to accuse her of laying out breadcrumbs for Tyrion, she's guilty of that. But she didn't technically break her oath.

And it's not as if Jon didn't know he was walking right into that. "Don't tell Sansa" is a huge thing and it was sort of brought up again when Jon reunited with Arya. Dany warned him. He did it anyhow. It's so unbelievable that some are speculating that along with some of Jon's other behaviors in this episode, it's an indication that part of him is starting to want the throne and that part was ok with Sansa getting it out. 

And if you don't care about what's said in interviews, then you need to ignore ALL interviews or it's just cherry-picking to serve a bias. 

 

Technically? 

From Inside the episode you have Weiss saying as clear as can be: 

 Sansa “knows what will happen if she gives Tyrion this information. She’s a student of Littlefinger, and she knows how information travels, and she can think many steps into the game, the way Littlefinger did.” Weiss says Sansa knows Tyrion will turn around and tell Varys, and from there, she can predict even more events that will follow.

So she has technically calculated her move to betray John's secret and totally put him in the Game of Thrones, knowing the dimensions this can take. Even worse of she tried to covered herself in the process. So cunning. 

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Just now, Nightwish said:

Technically? 

From Inside the episode you have Weiss saying as clear as can be: 

 Sansa “knows what will happen if she gives Tyrion this information. She’s a student of Littlefinger, and she knows how information travels, and she can think many steps into the game, the way Littlefinger did.” Weiss says Sansa knows Tyrion will turn around and tell Varys, and from there, she can predict even more events that will follow. 

So she has technically calculated her move to betray John's secret and totally put him in the Game of Thrones, knowing the dimensions this can take. Even worse of she tried to covered herself in the process. So cunning.  

Are you not aware of what technically means? I stand by what I said. And I'll reiterate that Jon was clear on the possible outcome but did it anyhow. He could have made that oath harder to break, because Jon knows about breaking oaths. 

If you'd pay attention to the rest of the scene, Dany knowing already puts him into the Game. Ned got his head lopped off for getting entangled in the same heir issue and now Jon is headed right back into this except Jon himself is the heir. And Dany was clear that she prioritizes the throne over Jon. Do the math. Sansa was the only Stark who saw the wrong heir lop of Ned's head. They're practically whacking the viewer upside the head about Jon being the new Ned. Seriously, rewatch that scene without the routine Sansa bitching internal monologue script.

Did you miss the Joff parallels for Dany in episode 1? Sansa Jon is naively blinded by the handsome beautiful future king queen with a hidden cruel streak. They even mimic the courtyard scene. Robb side-eyes Sansa and this time Sansa side-eyes Jon. I'm not sure whether Dany would actually do anything like that, but D&D sure want us to wonder if she would. 

 

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Let's be fair to Jon here: This isn't (only) about Jon being pussy-whipped or by him being honor-bound to Daenerys.

He has seen the best side of her; the self-less savior that protects people from monsters, and he owes her his life, two times over.
It will take more than some rash decisions and angry stares for him to back out of his obligations to his aunt-queen.

Maybe she'll burn down KL, maybe she won't. Until she does something that he can't stand by, he will support her, and rightly so. 
 

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