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Sansa breaking her oath and the Anti-Daenerys conspiracy


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2 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Yes exactly, Dany’s existence is linked to the throne as Emilia Clark says in an interview https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/emilia-clarke-says-dany-and-jons-problem-is-theyre-up-for-the-same-promotion

and John doesn’t want the throne and it’s evident that since he supports her there is no problem.  But from the moment she will believe he betrayed her the conflict starts. 

That’s what Sansa created. A “rivalry” for the throne that doesn’t exist because John isn’t interested. And that’s a dirty trick implicating him when he has no interest.

 

And it never ever occurs to Dany that coming out with Jon's secret and him still bending the knee to her might actually give her more credibility.

Dany instigated the rivalry herself, by wanting to get the support for the throne through a lie, by Tyrion dangling Lord of Wf as carrot in front of Bran's nose, by making a man who followed Jon and became part of WF for Arya Lord of SE. Both Dany and Tyrion attempted to fracture family loyalties between the Starks for their own gain while guests at WF. That's a bunch of dirty tricks.

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5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Dany gave Sansa reasons to be suspicious how far she is willing to go to keep Jon's secret a secret.

First thing Dany does at the feast is make Gendry a lawful Baratheon, including a lordship and a big ass castle, to gain a lifetime of loyalty, outwardly for his heroics. But she has Jon still go by his bastard name, no castle and no lordship AND keep his identity secret for the same reason: to make people believe the only choice they have is between her and Cersei and to keep them loyal to her. Sansa was the rightful heir at the time of s6 finale (cause nobody knew about Bran being alive), went through as much shit as Dany, and everybody made Jon KitN, though he was believed to be a bastard, and Sansa accepted it and worked hard to preserve the base to stay loyal to the Starks and Jon, despite him going away and bending the knee. Talk about completely two opposite choices by his cousin Sansa and his aunt Dany. Dany tries to get the throne through a lie.

On top of that, Tyrion also tried to make Bran Lord of WF. Why did he do that? To replace Sansa's political voice with another Stark.

Eff that. Keeping a secret so Jon is entirely expendable, just another one of Dany's casualties in a rushed battle, while Tyrion Lannister and Dany started to play the game of thrones and houses by attempting to fracture the unity of the Starks, is not honorable.

Dany tries to get the throne through conquest. John’s true ID won’t open him the door to the Iron Throne he has to fight first, would John ever do it and go against Cersei since he says he has no interest to the throne? If he is interested, he should try taking it for his own. 

Dany tries to avoid another front being creating by supporters of John. 

Yes right, like even Bran became the lord of Winterfell that would make Sansa shut up, Lol. 

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People can say and spin things all they want but Dany is the one who is creating the issue. Even with Jon's parentage being known, she doesn't have to be threatened by it. They can literally just marry and rule together. But somehow she got something up her butt about ruling all on her own....it is really poor story line and arc....she literally has the IT in her grasp and the man she loves in her grasp. All she has to do is ignore Sansa and defeat Cersei. All things would grow in time. 

Instead it's all "The IT is MINE" blah blah blah, "My birth right" blah blah blah Never, "What can I do to make the people love me"? She has all the pieces of the puzzle at her disposal and like a child, refuses to put them in place, but instead whines and cries that someone else should do it for her. 

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2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And it never ever occurs to Dany that coming out with Jon's secret and him still bending the knee to her might actually give her more credibility.

Dany instigated the rivalry herself, by wanting to get the support for the throne through a lie, by Tyrion dangling Lord of Wf as carrot in front of Bran's nose, by making a man who followed Jon and became part of WF for Arya Lord of SE. Both Dany and Tyrion attempted to fracture family loyalties between the Starks for their own gain while guests at WF. That's a bunch of dirty tricks.

She is not just a guest, she is supposed to be their Queen who gave them the army and the dragons to fight and they don’t even acknowledge it, not so dirty as the supposed loyal sister who betrays her supposed brothers trust the moment he walks away risking him getting killed. Dany has still a dragon, what does John suppose to have now? Varys protection?

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Just now, Nightwish said:

Dany tries to get the throne through conquest. John’s true ID won’t open him the door to the Iron Throne he has to fight first, would John ever do it and go against Cersei since he says he has no interest to the throne? If he is interested, he should try taking it for his own. 

Dany tries to avoid another front being creating by supporters of John. 

Yes right, like even Bran became the lord of Winterfell that would make Sansa shut up, Lol. 

No, Dany does not just try to get the throne through conquest, but by calling herself the true and rightful heir to the IT. If she only tried to get it through conquest, she wouldn't need Jon to lie about his identity to those of Westeros who accepted her as their queen. 

It's not about whether he's interested in it himself. He's obviously fighting for it for her. At the very least she owes him and the realm the truth.

It wouldn't make Sansa shut up, but would put the relationships that Sansa built with the Northern vassals AND the Vale in jeopardy and easier for Tyrion and Dany to dismiss and ignore her.

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7 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

She is not just a guest, she is supposed to be their Queen who gave them the army and the dragons to fight and they don’t even acknowledge it, not so dirty as the supposed loyal sister who betrays her supposed brothers trust the moment he walks away risking him getting killed. Dany has still a dragon, what does John suppose to have now? Varys protection?

Even as Queen she is still a guest at Winterfell. They eat WF food. Guest right goes both ways: from host to guest, but also from guest to host.

Sansa did show her gratitude to Dany in epi 2, and she apologized she hadn't done any sooner. On top of that Sansa's advice the armies (and a dragon) needed rest before isntantly plunging into a war was correct too. Dany lost her dragon and Missandei by rushing to Dragonstone.

If people know Jon is Rhaegar's son, Dany would be a fool to try and roast him while he's fighting on her side.  

 

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5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No, Dany does not just try to get the throne through conquest, but by calling herself the true and rightful heir to the IT. If she only tried to get it through conquest, she wouldn't need Jon to lie about his identity to those of Westeros who accepted her as their queen. 

It's not about whether he's interested in it himself. He's obviously fighting for it for her. At the very least she owes him and the realm the truth.

It wouldn't make Sansa shut up, but would put the relationships that Sansa built with the Northern vassals AND the Vale in jeopardy and easier for Tyrion and Dany to dismiss and ignore her.

The rightful heir is the political campaign of the time to get supporters for her claim. Nothing more. If “I am the heir of the throne” solved the problem we wouldn’t be here in the first place. 

And if John wants to claim the throne apparently he has to fight for it either it’s Cersei or Dany and that’s where Sansa send him. 

They already dismiss and ignore her that’s why she is frustrated. 

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7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Even as Queen she is still a guest at Winterfell. They eat WF food.

Sansa did show her gratitude to Dany in epi 2, and she apologized she hadn't done any sooner.

If people know Jon is Rhaegar's son, Dany would be a fool to try and roast him while he's fighting on her side.  

 

Dany can prove herself mad out of despair after feeling she betrayed her, even worst used her army to protect the North, eliminate Cersei  and then claiming the throne. Because that’s more likely to believe since they made an agreement. Good or bad it’s done. And then goodbye Rhaegar’s son. To her eyes he is nothing more than a traitor along with all the North. 

Sansa true face shows at the crypt scene when she was trying to manipulate Tyrion. 

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2 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

The rightful heir is the political campaign of the time to get supporters for her claim. Nothing more. If “I am the heir of the throne” solved the problem we wouldn’t be here in the first place. 

And if John wants to claim the throne apparently he has to fight for it either it’s Cersei or Dany and that’s where Sansa send him. 

They already dismiss and ignore her that’s why she is frustrated. 

She hasn't done much to ingratiate herself to the people and lords of Westeros. She tends to make more threats than peaceful negotiations. She lies and bullies and then threatens with dragons. When did she go to the Vale and offer help? The Storm lands? Dorne? The ravaged River Lands? instead she just went right after Cersei then went and did the first actual GOOD for the realm by helping the North. But you can't expect all the other lords to just fall in line for her. Hell, at least half of them fought to other throw her father because he was a nut, so it's not like a majority of Westeros is begging for a Targ to take the throne. 

 

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1 minute ago, Nightwish said:

The rightful heir is the political campaign of the time to get supporters for her claim. Nothing more. If “I am the heir of the throne” solved the problem we wouldn’t be here in the first place. 

And if John wants to claim the throne apparently he has to fight for it either it’s Cersei or Dany and that’s where Sansa send him. 

They already dismiss and ignore her that’s why she is frustrated. 

Exactly: if you need to do a political campaign, it's not just "conquering" is it. If it was just "conquering" Dany wouldn't agree initially to try and make the people of KL rebel against Cersei.

Sansa explictly said why she's frustrated: she doesn't trust Dany (who dismisses sound military advice because Dany projects pettiness onto Sansa, and gets her dragon and Missandei killed for it, and who wants Jon to hide the truth) and wants to have terms with regards the North.

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3 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Dany can prove herself mad out of despair after feeling she betrayed her, even worst used her army to protect the North, eliminate Cersei  and then claiming the throne. Because that’s more likely to believe since they made an agreement. Good or bad it’s done. And then goodbye Rhaegar’s son. To her eyes he is nothing more than a traitor along with all the North. 

And then she proves she never deserves to sit on the IT: that she's nothing more than a kinslayer, mad to booth.

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10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Exactly: if you need to do a political campaign, it's not just "conquering" is it. If it was just "conquering" Dany wouldn't agree initially to try and make the people of KL rebel against Cersei.

Sansa explictly said why she's frustrated: she doesn't trust Dany (who dismisses sound military advice because Dany projects pettiness onto Sansa, and gets her dragon and Missandei killed for it, and who wants Jon to hide the truth) and wants to have terms with regards the North.

Apparently it is conquering because she needs them to support her military invasion and help her create a peaceful realm afterwards, apparently the less conflict there is, the better. 

Sansa didn’t trust Dany when Dany was fighting above her head and rescuing her brother. Instead she was trying to manipulate Tyrion. Dany back then knew John’s ID and protected him. Apparently if Sansa sees in Dany an enemy, after all this,  she should check with a psychiatrist. 

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26 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And then she proves she never deserves to sit on the IT.

No because again for her John would have backstabbed her whereas he had the chance to come clear and tell her he had wanted the throne instead of using her and desposing her after. 

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27 minutes ago, Wik said:

She hasn't done much to ingratiate herself to the people and lords of Westeros. She tends to make more threats than peaceful negotiations. She lies and bullies and then threatens with dragons. When did she go to the Vale and offer help? The Storm lands? Dorne? The ravaged River Lands? instead she just went right after Cersei then went and did the first actual GOOD for the realm by helping the North. But you can't expect all the other lords to just fall in line for her. Hell, at least half of them fought to other throw her father because he was a nut, so it's not like a majority of Westeros is begging for a Targ to take the throne. 

 

If getting over half her army slaughtered, including both of her 2 most loyal and trusted advisors, and losing 2 of her 3 dragons isn't doing much, I don't suppose there's much that she could do, is there. 

Apparently, your conception of the role of the people and lords of Westeros in the battle against the NK was to either (1) sit it out or (2) bend the knee so Daenerys would come up and save the day, right? And then the proper thing to do after she does come up and takes horrendous losses in a narrowly-won battle is to promptly take back your promise and tell her to sod off?

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20 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Apparently it is conquering because she needs them to support her military invasion and help her create a peaceful realm afterwards, apparently the less conflict there is, the better. 

Sansa didn’t trust Dany when Dany was fighting above her head and rescuing her brother. Instead she was trying to manipulate Tyrion. Dany back then knew John’s ID and protected him. Apparently if Sansa sees in Dany an enemy, after all this,  she should check with a psychiatrist. 

Robert conquered the IT, exactly because he did not claim he was the rightful heir. Only after he had defeated Rhaegar and the Targ army, and it was decided Mad Aerys would be replaced did they go for "closest to a Targ" to decide on who'd get to sit his ass on the IT.

What was the war of the dragons? A civil war over who is the most rightful heir of the IT. It's not conquering, it's civil war. And that is what Dany indeed needs to do if she wants the throne: start a civil war. But it ain't conquering.

Dany gave Sansa no assurances about the needs and interests of the North before the battle. And Sansa didn't express distrust over Dany in the crypts, but a distrust of Tyrion: his ever present divided loyalties.

Dany did protect Jon, but that was before she wanted him to lie about his identity. Dany proved herself untrustworthy the moment she wants to gain the throne while lying about Jon's identity and when she does not consider the smallfolk. Those Northern armies aren't professional armies. They're levied smallfolk, farmers. Hell, she didn't even consider her own dragon's safety much. I get it. She fears Cersei will get too strong, and she's not in a right head space with the first ever huge battle losses of her own personal armies she ever had to experience (North has lost huge numbers since she started to build her personal army). Which was just another reason why Sansa's advice to buy some time was highly necessary.

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16 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

No because again for her John would have backstabbed her whereas he had the chance to come clear and tell her he wanted the throne instead of using her and despising her after. 

I don't get this....Jon has said like 12 times he doesn't want the IT. Now if others want him on it, that is one thing, he can't force them to NOT want that. But Dany should be the LEAST suspect towards Jon, who just wants his toy and has already made it very clear that he had/has no intentions of taking or other throwing Dany for the sole purpose of "stealing" the IT. 

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11 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

If getting over half her army slaughtered, including both of her 2 most loyal and trusted advisors, and losing 2 of her 3 dragons isn't doing much, I don't suppose there's much that she could do, is there. 

Apparently, your conception of the role of the people and lords of Westeros in the battle against the NK was to either (1) sit it out or (2) bend the knee so Daenerys would come up and save the day, right? And then the proper thing to do after she does come up and takes horrendous losses in a narrowly-won battle is to promptly take back your promise and tell her to sod off?

Again, your first point is a military pact, not political and is borne out of necessity by both. The north needs her military, she needs their politic power. My point isn't to downplay her helping against the NK. But what has she done in the Vale? River Lands? Dorne? Stormlands? Did she ever send emissaries to ANY of those lords and request to treat with them? Offer them something in return for coming to the bargaining table? No. Politically, she has been dumb. 

NOW, that maybe a product of the piss poor writing from D&D and the crunch time of the plot being cut down. BUT we have seen ONE "political" move and it was her gong to help JON, not the North (because lets face it, she only went because of him. If Bran would have wheeled in and told her what Jon told her she would have dismissed him outright like every other lord has about The Wall and what is beyond for several hundred years). 

She didn't say, "Geez, my family and dynasty was nearly extinct because we are crazy and maybe I should try and PROVE to these people that not only am I a Targ with a rightful claim but I also am actually a good queen that cares about them and their people and wants to be better than Aerys or Cersei." 

No, instead she just keeps saying, "The IT is mine" or "the IT should be mine". Get over it lady. Go EARN it. Your family's people butchered you because you were burning them alive for fun. Suddenly showing up with some dragons and an army and doing something that SAVES MANKIND deserve undying loyalty from only the North because that was the area the battle happened in??? Come on.....

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11 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Yes exactly, Dany’s existence is linked to the throne as Emilia Clark says in an interview https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/emilia-clarke-says-dany-and-jons-problem-is-theyre-up-for-the-same-promotion

and John doesn’t want the throne and it’s evident that since he supports her there is no problem.  But from the moment she will believe he betrayed her the conflict starts. 

That’s what Sansa created. A “rivalry” for the throne that doesn’t exist because John isn’t interested. And that’s a dirty trick implicating him when he has no interest. 

Plus the narrative suffers once again as Weiss says she knew that Tyrion would share the secret with Varys. Varys who is what john’s Protector? Sansa hardly knows Varys apart from the fact that he is a schemer. And this could work both ways either to eliminate Dany or John. 

Ned I understand your point but in reality South didn’t kill him, it was the Vale and Little fingers orchestrated plan that killed him. Little finger who also wanted to create conflict between Ned and the Lannister’s. To my opinion Sansa should have known better as she sealed Little fingers fate herself. 

 

Sansa didn't create it. She's just been through this before. It can be argued that Jon created it himself when he insisted on telling the rest and he put a target on the other's backs for it. I don't blame him as he's not so bright, but that's what happened. Dany will think Sansa's plotting whether she actually does so or not. 

 

Dany's already jealous and suspicious of Jon's claim. It's all over the feast scene and that's not on Sansa. And Sansa knows how the throne brings out people's worst sides and how the Game works. It won't go well for Jon in the long run. Catelyn had to remind Ned that it's part of being a monarch to have some level of paranoia. Then you have the Mad Queen thing that they're milking. Have you seen the show and read the books? It's called A Game of Thrones because everyone wants it. That's why Ned is so exalted. It's phenomenally rare to turn it down. It's also hard for someone who has been conditioned to want the throne since birth (thanks Viserys) to be able to conceive of anyone who wouldn't want it. In that scene, Jon was drinking up the attention and everyone was glad to give it. Jon can deny wanting it all he wants, but part of Dany will never believe that. All the same, she sees that Jon has the support which she does not. 

How the New Yorker interpreted that scene:

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/on-television/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-4-recap-sex-lies-and-hellfire

Quote

Tormund, after insisting that vomiting is celebrating, drunkenly praises Jon while sloshing a wine-filled ram horn, and Dany watches with jealousy. Mind-bending music plays, implying that she’s freaking out that these happy fools won’t bend the knee, and, possibly, that she wants to murder everybody. Thankfully, Varys peers at her suspiciously.

https://www.bustle.com/p/why-daenerys-becoming-the-mad-queen-on-game-of-thrones-isnt-as-simple-as-some-fans-might-think-17303941

Quote

Dany's jealous feelings while watching the masses praise Jon in the aftermath of the Battle of Winterfell eerily echo the way Viserys envied the Dothraki's adoration of Daenerys way back in Season 1. Drawing parallels between yourself and Viserys Targaryen is never where you want to be in life; and the way the camera continually captured Dany throughout the feast — alone, in extreme close-up, with little flames of candlelight flickering in her eyes — is both an evocative encapsulation of her current state of mind, and ominous foreshadowing of things to come.

 

On Varys, Sansa spent years in KL and show Varys is truly a good type who cares for the realm (don't buy that for a second in the books). She was also married to Tyrion, knows him, trusts him, and Tyrion's cool with Varys. It doesn't go either way between Dany or Jon. Sansa notes that Tyrion's scared of Dany and he gives a terrible defense of her. Tyrion knows Jon going back to season 1 and they got on very well. 

Ned wouldn't have died of an IT plot if he'd have stayed in Winterfell. That was the whole point of the sign/foreshadowing where the direwolf was found speared to death with stag antlers and the pups all left orphaned. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Wik said:

Again, your first point is a military pact, not political and is borne out of necessity by both. The north needs her military, she needs their politic power. My point isn't to downplay her helping against the NK. But what has she done in the Vale? River Lands? Dorne? Stormlands? Did she ever send emissaries to ANY of those lords and request to treat with them? Offer them something in return for coming to the bargaining table? No. Politically, she has been dumb. 

She cut a deal with Dorne, remember? Nobody is in charge of the Stormlands or Riverlands. The Vale is not easily accessible and who would she treat with anyway, Robyn?

Plus she's been kind of busy acting as Protector of the Realm in good faith and at massive expenditure and danger to herself and all she holds dear. I guess she's supposed to beg naked on her hands and knees as well.

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Dany's tragedy is that her upbringing deprived her of ever dealing with a feudal system adequately.

Her family: listen and do what big brother says, or you might wake the dragon. => How does she advise Jon to deal with his sister who's typically Northern and Starkish icy: make her behave or else... Except feudal families don't work that way exactly. Some stand in the spotlight, others in the shadow, but they all have a political role, including arguing with one another.

Dothraki: everybody does what the Khal says, no questions asked. => Feudal lieges and vassals: it's a tit-for-that relation and without vassals you're lord of nothing

Unsullied: everybody does what Greyworm says, no questions asked

Dany runs into problems and is extremely frustrated in Qarth, even before Xaro betrays her to try and steal her dragons. Qarth is multi-factioned with every faction having a say in things, often disagreeing with one another, and never coming to a conclusion without a consensus. They're stubborn, not very much impressed, etc... Hmmm sounds like the North and the 7k altogether (on a larger scale). Qarth was a disaster for her. The same issue actually existed in Mereen, after she conquered it. In the books Mereen will inevitably also end up a disaster - not because Selmy will lose agains the sieging Ghiscari, but because of the pale mare. In the show they handwaved it as finally secure and Daario will rule it. Bye.

Dany cannot perceive power other than in an authorial way where everybody else does as told, whether it's family, a potential husband, vassals, regions, etc... She has no experience with allies who speak their opposing mind with passion and unwilling to back down on it. And when it happens, she falls back on the model that Viserys taught her.

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