Sansa breaking her oath and the Anti-Daenerys conspiracy

[Rose of Red Lake]

17 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Jon can deny wanting it all he wants, but part of Dany will never believe that. All the same, she sees that Jon has the support which she does not. 

That feast scene was amazing, the body language!!

She's jealous of him even as he's a bastard publicly, so him hiding it isn't even going to satisfy her. He cant control if people like him. 

Why does Jon have to lie to make Dany feel secure? This just feels like "you dont want to wake the dragon do you?"

She doesn't even want to attempt another solution, to try to co-rule with him or whatever. 

While I think she has really convincing reasons for her behavior and you can see how her upbringing shaped her, Dany's tragic fall would bee no one else's fault but her own. That's paint-by-numbers Shakespeare. 

[sweetsunray]

@Lollygag

Thanks for the link to that second article where they make a parallel to Viserys. I agree that there are several this season for Dany.

It began with her telling Jon to make Sansa behave or else (dragons eat whatever they like). She's using her own brother-sister relationship experience here onto Jon and Sansa.

Then in epi 2 she starts Jaime's trial by talking about what Viserys told her and how they'd both fantasise what they would do to Jaime whenever they'd have him in their grasp. Hell Jorah, who back in S1 was Viserys' knight, had to advize her to be way more accomodating to Sansa and Tyrion.

And now in epi 4 she's envious of people liking Jon and sits isolated, angry over it. Jon assuring her over and over that she's his queen, literally bending the knee again, just like she assured Viserys over and over that he was her king to no avail when with the Dothraki.

She's not Viserys, but she's certainly dealing in her mind with those issues in her head towards his path. 

[the Greenleif Stark]

How was no one like "hey, you know what would be a great idea? If you(Dany) named Jon Snow, Jon Stark and Warden of the North and then immediately married him and renamed him King in the North. Then we march down the King's Road, all of us, with you two riding dragons, make a big show about of it, collect up all the lords as we head south to KL and take care of Cersei with the full strength of Westeros together. Then after we've done that and Dany's ass is firmly planted on the IT we tell people who Jon really is.".......the show has just been so terrible and rushed setting up all this High School Musical drama, really surprised they didn't cast Zac Efron as Euron

[Remember]

On 5/6/2019 at 6:12 AM, btfu806 said:

I hated it. I am on Sansa's side in this show for the most part (I can't stand Dany for a while now). But that was awful with what they did to her character.

D&D apparently can't really write female characters. The majority of them are just catty. Or naive.

To be fair, they can't write men either. Maybe even moreso. At least women are the heart of the story right now.  

Has everyone missed on Tyrion being the worst advisor in history, despite being "clever"? Varys going mute for episodes at a time? Jon Snow being the most vanilla character since Ned Stark? Tormund just a frat boy? One note Euron? Boring ass Grey Worm? Gendry just as Arya's crush? The only interesting men are Jaime and the Hound, and you can argue that depending on whether Jaimie saves or kills Cersei this entire Arc has been ruined as much as Sansa's or Danny's. 

So yeah, D&D can't write women. But they can't write men either!

[WolfOfWinter]

I think it's truly interesting that Jon gets a pass for bending the knee after Dany had already agreed to fight the NK. Sansa had the right of it when she asked him whether he did it out of duty or love, something Jon couldn't answer because he knew the truth. "They'll come to see you for what you are," he told Dany when she pointed out that his people wouldn't be happy. He went against his own family and people to please someone he barely knew because he was infatuated, and somehow Sansa is still made out to be the spiteful, back-stabbing bitch in this whole situation. Imagine the hate she'd get if she'd done something similar out of infatuation. 

Sansa sees right through Jon. She knows he's blinded by love and that it's getting in the way of his duty to his own people. And she knows better than most people how infatuation can make you blind to someone's nature. At every turn, she's proven that she values her family and people above everything. She didn't want Jon to go to Dragonstone last season because she feared he'd be harmed, and she once again didn't like the thought of him going to King's Landing because her male relatives never make it back. So yeah, she broke her word, not because she's a treacherous bitch but because she's willing to be dishonorable if it means saving her loved ones.

Speaking of being supposedly dishonorable, where's the honor in Jon letting the realm believe his father was a rapist and his mother a rape victim just so Dany can sit on the throne based on a lie? 

People say he's just like Ned, but Ned went behind Robert's back and waged war against the Iron Throne because he refused to sit anyone but the rightful heir on the Iron Throne. It's amazing the standard Sansa is held to by the fandom. 

[darmody]

On 5/6/2019 at 7:17 AM, MarieAntoinette said:

I don't know if this was on purpose, but this scene showed that Sansa is not like her father. Ned took that secret to the grave, and Sansa broke the oath.

To be fair, Ned didn't live long after Robert. Jon's life was in danger so long as the King lived. And Joffrey, for that matter, who unleashed a tidal wave of bastard blood early in his reign.

Ned had much greater motivation than Sansa to keep quiet. 

[darmody]

On 5/6/2019 at 7:50 AM, Faera said:

Oaths get people nowhere 

We still use oaths in contemporary society. They're part of the fabric of civilization. 

[darmody]

On 5/6/2019 at 8:42 AM, Nerevanin said:

I don't really blame Sansa for this. We finally see that she isn't the "little bird" anymore, as she said herself. Now she is finally a player and I like that. This is a game of thrones, after all. Dany burned people and crucified others for her goal that is the Iron Throne. Sansa broke an oath to secure her goal and that's independent North. I don't have a problem with it.

Game of thrones it is, but you don't have to be playing always. Ned's friendship with Robert lasted through 20 years of relative peace, then he died and Ned died and the Stark family was nearly ruined.

Sansa is kicking the hornet's nest in the midst of war against her arch-enemy Cersei. Why? Couldn't she make common cause with Danny and have her marry Jon?

Why is no one conspiring to do the obvious thing and betroth these two?

[funpig]

First of all, did Sansa make a formal oath a la "by the old gods and the new" or was it more like a pinky-swear between a brother and sister?

Secondly, Jon asked her to swear before Jon would tell her the secret.  Technically, it was Bran who told her the secret, not Jon. 

Thirdly, if I am correct that Sansa and Tyrion are still married, (and will rule together in the end) what they discussed privately as husband and wife is justified under spousal privilege, imho.

Fourthly, Jon is dumb. Daenerys, and most people understood, that the secret of Jon's true heritage would undermine her claim and only cause doubt and dissension in the kingdom.  If he wants to give up his right out of love for Daenerys, which was his perogative, he should have just kept his damn mouth shut. 

Finally, i do not think Sansa aspires for power for herself (even though I think she and tyrion will end up on the IT together in the end).  IMO, she has demonstrated that she is loyal to Jon.  She never asserted her claim over the north when Jon was declared King or when he went to Dragonstone and left her in charge of Winterfell with Baelish trying to manipulate her.  She only wants to protect Jon, save him from making mistakes even if it means speaking out and to encourage him to assert his rightful claim to the Iron Throne over a foreigner who she does not trust.

 

[MinscS2]

19 minutes ago, darmody said:

Why is no one conspiring to do the obvious thing and betroth these two?

Because it would be too easy and not cause enough drama for D&D's liking?

Because D&D where told that Daenerys "goes mad before the end", and having her marry Jon, for all it's logic, would make it harder to write a convincing story about her sudden decent into darkness? (Not that they managed to do that anyway...)

If the show followed any resemblance of human logic (like it used to do way back when), Jon and Daenerys would've been wed the instant they reached Winterfell back in episode 1. Would've also made the reveal of Jon's parentage that much more impactful for the both of them.

[funpig]

21 minutes ago, darmody said:

Why is no one conspiring to do the obvious thing and betroth these two?

The acceptance of incest and inbreeding was a long past Targaryan tradition which resulted in madness in the line.  As Tyrion noted in episode, a marriage between aunt and nephew would not be accepted by most folks including the people of the North (and viewers).

[Nerevanin]

5 hours ago, darmody said:

Why is no one conspiring to do the obvious thing and betroth these two?

Because Varys is right: Dany doesn't want her spouse to be her equal, let alone a more powerful one than she is. She doesn't want to share the throne. Jon would probably be against it as well because she is his aunt.

[SeanF]

36 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

Because Varys is right: Dany doesn't want her spouse to be her equal, let alone a more powerful one than she is. She doesn't want to share the throne. Jon would probably be against it as well because she is his aunt.

You aren't paranoid if they're out to get you.

Despite her doing a great deal to destroy the army of the dead, Jon is still admired and respected, and credited with things he hasn't achieved, in a way that she is not.  She is still the daughter of the Mad King, an outsider, and a woman.   Her problem is that once it is widely known who Jon is, he will be treated as reigning King, and she will be treated as his consort. In such a society, it's far easier for a Queen to be married to a younger son of a Great House, or an outsider. Jon doesn't want to be a threat to her position, but he is a threat to her position, once his secret is out, a point she makes in their conversation.

 

[Angel Eyes]

6 hours ago, funpig said:

The acceptance of incest and inbreeding was a long past Targaryan tradition which resulted in madness in the line.  As Tyrion noted in episode, a marriage between aunt and nephew would not be accepted by most folks including the people of the North (and viewers).

Though there are a couple times the Starks married their own nieces in the last 200 years, can’t name them off the top of my head.

[Nightwish]

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Robert conquered the IT, exactly because he did not claim he was the rightful heir. Only after he had defeated Rhaegar and the Targ army, and it was decided Mad Aerys would be replaced did they go for "closest to a Targ" to decide on who'd get to sit his ass on the IT.

What was the war of the dragons? A civil war over who is the most rightful heir of the IT. It's not conquering, it's civil war. And that is what Dany indeed needs to do if she wants the throne: start a civil war. But it ain't conquering.

Dany gave Sansa no assurances about the needs and interests of the North before the battle. And Sansa didn't express distrust over Dany in the crypts, but a distrust of Tyrion: his ever present divided loyalties.

Dany did protect Jon, but that was before she wanted him to lie about his identity. Dany proved herself untrustworthy the moment she wants to gain the throne while lying about Jon's identity and when she does not consider the smallfolk. Those Northern armies aren't professional armies. They're levied smallfolk, farmers. Hell, she didn't even consider her own dragon's safety much. I get it. She fears Cersei will get too strong, and she's not in a right head space with the first ever huge battle losses of her own personal armies she ever had to experience (North has lost huge numbers since she started to build her personal army). Which was just another reason why Sansa's advice to buy some time was highly necessary.

Since it’s Cersei sitting at the throne right now and she is the legitimate queen everything else it’s just political play for supporters. Dany is invading to claim the throne, who she considers belongs to her as a last Targaryan, but she needs to use the force of the army, therefore it is a conquest. Her actual claim to the throne is used to get her supporters and stand her case otherwise she would be nothing else than an outsider. 

She does believe she has the right to claim the throne but this is nothing by itself. Olenna, the martells didn’t support her because of her claim, the claim is a vehicle. They supported her because Varys promised “Fire and Blood”. The capacity of her army and her dragons. And revenge. That’s all they care about. And nobody recognizes her claim nevertheless, that’s why she needs supporters and alliances. 

The dance of dragons if I am not mistaken happened between Targaryens, therefore it’s a civil war as they were already on power. 

If John wanted to claim the throne as the script is right now he should claim it by war from Cersei as Dany does right now. 

[Nightwish]

10 hours ago, the Greenleif Stark said:

How was no one like "hey, you know what would be a great idea? If you(Dany) named Jon Snow, Jon Stark and Warden of the North and then immediately married him and renamed him King in the North. Then we march down the King's Road, all of us, with you two riding dragons, make a big show about of it, collect up all the lords as we head south to KL and take care of Cersei with the full strength of Westeros together. Then after we've done that and Dany's ass is firmly planted on the IT we tell people who Jon really is.".......the show has just been so terrible and rushed setting up all this High School Musical drama, really surprised they didn't cast Zac Efron as Euron

Because the script writers wanted a conflict, not a resolution, apparently, that’s why even Varys turns down the idea of a marriage. 

[Nightwish]

11 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Sansa didn't create it. She's just been through this before. It can be argued that Jon created it himself when he insisted on telling the rest and he put a target on the other's backs for it. I don't blame him as he's not so bright, but that's what happened. Dany will think Sansa's plotting whether she actually does so or not. 

 

Dany's already jealous and suspicious of Jon's claim. It's all over the feast scene and that's not on Sansa. And Sansa knows how the throne brings out people's worst sides and how the Game works. It won't go well for Jon in the long run. Catelyn had to remind Ned that it's part of being a monarch to have some level of paranoia. Then you have the Mad Queen thing that they're milking. Have you seen the show and read the books? It's called A Game of Thrones because everyone wants it. That's why Ned is so exalted. It's phenomenally rare to turn it down. It's also hard for someone who has been conditioned to want the throne since birth (thanks Viserys) to be able to conceive of anyone who wouldn't want it. In that scene, Jon was drinking up the attention and everyone was glad to give it. Jon can deny wanting it all he wants, but part of Dany will never believe that. All the same, she sees that Jon has the support which she does not. 

How the New Yorker interpreted that scene:

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/on-television/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-4-recap-sex-lies-and-hellfire

https://www.bustle.com/p/why-daenerys-becoming-the-mad-queen-on-game-of-thrones-isnt-as-simple-as-some-fans-might-think-17303941

 

On Varys, Sansa spent years in KL and show Varys is truly a good type who cares for the realm (don't buy that for a second in the books). She was also married to Tyrion, knows him, trusts him, and Tyrion's cool with Varys. It doesn't go either way between Dany or Jon. Sansa notes that Tyrion's scared of Dany and he gives a terrible defense of her. Tyrion knows Jon going back to season 1 and they got on very well. 

Ned wouldn't have died of an IT plot if he'd have stayed in Winterfell. That was the whole point of the sign/foreshadowing where the direwolf was found speared to death with stag antlers and the pups all left orphaned. 

 

I still don’t understand the argument, if you see someone so dangerous and protective of their position as you describe Dany, it just doesn’t make sense throwing John in the arena, after he has made an agreement. 

The result mathematical will be turning the one against the other without their notion. 

The key point here is that John doesn’t want the throne, Sansa knows it, knows the agreement they made, and still works her plot behind their backs. 

Varys to me is a plot hole making Sansa even more dangerous and naive. 

Even with Ned’s case the further you stay from a nuts person the better. If we consider Dany mad and ruthless for her claim you don’t press John’s identity at this point unless you want to assasinate her behind her back and throw to John the blame. 

[Jarl Halstein]

There is no point for Sansa to plot against Dany, really. If she cares for the North and her family - don't do things that could be reported to the dragon queen right away. Don't start conflict within the ranks. AT LEAST wait until Cersei is defeated. But better still, just let it be. You'll be pretty much autonomous in the North anyway, just send a bit of taxes to the south as usual. It's Winter, people will just sit it out for a couple of generations.

And everyone north of Winterfell is dead. Turned to dust. No one to bring food to Winterfell from that direction. That should be the first priority.

So, the only reason Sansa is plotting is to fill out the last season. I don't think it's realistic.

[Jarl Halstein]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

You aren't paranoid if they're out to get you.

Despite her doing a great deal to destroy the army of the dead, Jon is still admired and respected, and credited with things he hasn't achieved, in a way that she is not.  She is still the daughter of the Mad King, an outsider, and a woman.   Her problem is that once it is widely known who Jon is, he will be treated as reigning King, and she will be treated as his consort. In such a society, it's far easier for a Queen to be married to a younger son of a Great House, or an outsider. Jon doesn't want to be a threat to her position, but he is a threat to her position, once his secret is out, a point she makes in their conversation.

 

I just recently read about the great king Theoderic; after his death, his daughter ruled while the grandson was still a boy. Among the Burgundians, there was also a female ruler around the same time. China had at least one female ruler. These things happen. Unless she wants to kill tens of thousands in the capital with dragon fire, of course. Which is completely out of character for the Breaker of Chains, but we needed a reason for Varys to turn against her, I suppose.

I don't know why people say Jon is useless. He led the defense of the Wall, and he led the army against the Bastard. Sure, he ran out in the field to save his brother, which was stupid - but before that, there was a long time of leading the army. If he did it well, that's what people will respect. Not easy to lead an army of different forces that you had to assemble quickly. He will also have won people's respect in Winterfell by helping keep things together, and help prepare for the battle against the undead. That he doesn't kill any big name during that battle doesn't change that.

[Gendelsdottir]

This is a fictional universe in which rule of law, and orderly transition of leadership, simply have no meaning other than what's convenient in the moment. Unless it's these laws:

Finagle's law, AKA Murphy's law: "Anything that can go wrong, will - at the worst possible moment."

O'Toole's corollary to Murphy's law: "Murphy was an optimist."

Amongst the lawful activities of the Seven Kingdoms is trial by combat, where the person who hires the best fighter carries the day. Also the Kingsmoot of the Ironborn, where the person whose contingent of supporters shouts loudest carries the day. People who have a well-defined, rigidly formal sense of right and wrong, who uphold it in the face of all opposition (think Eddard Stark and Stannis Baratheon), are thought of as crackbrained misfits, to be eliminated at all costs.

Parties to the upcoming transfer of power will no doubt present their best arguments, appeals to established authority, best practice, divine right, Lots Of Guns, etc. I predict much of the arguing will be carried out with edged weapons. And the winner will sit the Iron Throne, a poisoned chalice if ever there was one.