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Sansa breaking her oath and the Anti-Daenerys conspiracy

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1 hour ago, btfu806 said:

Or Jon the idiot, Tyrion who can't make a correct choice, Jamie who keeps running back to Cersei, the WW who were pointless to the show ... the list goes on.

At this point, I am rooting for Cersei, she has been the most consistent character.

If I get told one more time about how great Jon is and a great leader, or how Dany is loved by the people or whatever else because D&D are incapable of showing it to me, I am going to throw my TV out the window.

I don't think there's any truly 100% "good" character to root for...despite them shoving Jon down our throat as the "good one."  Personally I'd like to see Gendry and Arya rule, but we know that isn't happening.  

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2 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

The Starks are no more. One is a robot, one is an assassin who doesnt plan on coming back, one is the new little finger and the other one is a broken down cousin with dual loyalties. 

Well, I agree about Bran as three-eyed raven not really being a Stark anymore.

Arya is a Stark and the two sisters worked well together since S7.

Jon Snow is half Stark, half Targaryen and that makes him a Stark. He behaves like a Stark, full of honor and bravery.

What is new is how Sansa has changed. Till E4 I thought she just grew into being an adult Stark. Since E4 I am not so sure about her personality anymoe. Breaking the oath sworn to Jon Snow is really very low on my scale of respect.

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I think I'm the only one who really liked this part. The Starks are honourable and truthful to a fault. It's bloody annoying! They always put their honour before doing the right thing in most cases.

Sansa knows that Dany is not a good leader and won't be a good queen. She sees that Dany is becoming more and more tyrannical in her ruling, and it's at the detriment of the people. Sansa thinks of her people before power (i.e. asking for the soldiers to rest before marching to KL) and Dany doesn't. By breaking her oath and ruining Dany, she's putting her people first. She's not like the other Starks. 

 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, tinyskeeveuk said:

I think I'm the only one who really liked this part. The Starks are honourable and truthful to a fault. It's bloody annoying! They always put their honour before doing the right thing in most cases.

Sansa knows that Dany is not a good leader and won't be a good queen. She sees that Dany is becoming more and more tyrannical in her ruling, and it's at the detriment of the people. Sansa thinks of her people before power (i.e. asking for the soldiers to rest before marching to KL) and Dany doesn't. By breaking her oath and ruining Dany, she's putting her people first. She's not like the other Starks. 

 

Is Jon one of her people? He asked to her swear she wouldn't tell anyone. Jon could end up like the other men in her family who went south. 

Edited by King Jon Snow Stark

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6 minutes ago, tinyskeeveuk said:

She's not like the other Starks. 

That at least is correct.

6 minutes ago, tinyskeeveuk said:

Sansa thinks of her people before power (i.e. asking for the soldiers to rest before marching to KL)

That was a wise and reasonable idea of her.

7 minutes ago, tinyskeeveuk said:

By breaking her oath and ruining Dany

Breaking the oath is not right. Whether she will succeed in ruining Daenerys, we will wait to see. Maybe Daenerys ruins herself. Or Cersei does. 

Sansa conspires against her own family. That feels so wrong.

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1 minute ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Is Jon one of her people? He asked to her swear she wouldn't tell anyone. Jon could end up like the other men in her family who went south. 

Possibly. But she's thinking like a ruler, one who puts the many before the few. I think she genuinely believes Dany will be a bad queen and so betrayed the secret to make sure dany never makes it to the throne. 

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Posted (edited)

I had my hopes for Sansa in S7 where she seemed a good administrator but she lacks oratory skills. We haven't seen her getting Dany on her side or giving speeches to her people like Jon could.

What does she want for the north? Is she for a weak central state and having the individual Houses say over their own territory?

Her argument against wasting her men in the North for a far-away war in KL had some merits but Dany lost a lot of troops as she said. Decisions are hard.

The question remains how she could hold the families loyal to her or is it mostly leaving them alone in exchange for a very superficial oath of fealty.

Edited by Squall

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2 hours ago, Anthony Pirtle said:

I don't think it's out of character at all. Sansa has demonstrated over the last couple of seasons that she is willing to do whatever she believes is necessary to secure her position, her family's position, and the North. She may be Ned Stark's daughter, but she's Littlefinger's student. 

Well, she is actually the student of many characters. Not just Littlefinger. And Ned was one of her teachers. She learned a lot from Ned, but she also saw just how easily he got himself killed by being politically naïve. Same with Robb. However much people may dislike her moves this season, they are very much rooted in trying to AVOID the fate of her father and brother.

Ned got himself killed through dumb honesty and believing everyone would do the right thing with information and power.

Robb got himself killed because he acted out of love for a woman not strategic necessity, and he put too much faith in his bannermen.

If Sansa accepts Dany's rule when the entire North does not, she will lose the North as will Jon. Robb's fate all over again. I know it angers lots of fans that she is being cold to Dany, but that is not out of selfishness so much as out of reasonable and reasoned distrust.

As for telling Tyrion, it was a bit strange, but again, her distrust of Dany is real and reasonable. She knows that Tyrion knows Dany better than she does. Basically she is letting Tyrion be the judge of whether or not it is information that should get out because he knows and believes in Dany and Sansa does not.

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Just now, Hippocras said:

Well, she is actually the student of many characters. Not just Littlefinger. And Ned was one of her teachers. She learned a lot from Ned, but she also saw just how easily he got himself killed by being politically naïve. Same with Robb. However much people may dislike her moves this season, they are very much rooted in trying to AVOID the fate of her father and brother.

Ned got himself killed through dumb honesty and believing everyone would do the right thing with information and power.

Robb got himself killed because he acted out of love for a woman not strategic necessity, and he put too much faith in his bannermen.

If Sansa accepts Dany's rule when the entire North does not, she will lose the North as will Jon. Robb's fate all over again. I know it angers lots of fans that she is being cold to Dany, but that is not out of selfishness so much as out of reasonable and reasoned distrust.

As for telling Tyrion, it was a bit strange, but again, her distrust of Dany is real and reasonable. She knows that Tyrion knows Dany better than she does. Basically she is letting Tyrion be the judge of whether or not it is information that should get out because he knows and believes in Dany and Sansa does not.

You put my point so much more eloquently and succinctly. Thanks :)

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Posted (edited)

I don't think it's in character in terms of honor if you view it as something she just happens to tell her because she trusts him. I do think it's in character with "new, smart Sansa" if she intentionally tells him with the purpose to play the game. 

Edited by Trinket2

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I feel like they could have a) written Sansa’s distrust of Dany a bit better. I come away with the feeling she distrusts Dany purely because she’s not a Northerner and wants the IT. b) given us more of Tyrion’s thought processes in sharing this information with Varys, of all people. Why? So we can now have this mess whereby Varys wants to get rid of Daenerys, but Tyrion is still defending her? 

As hand of the Queen, doesn’t Tyrion now have a responsibility to expose Varys’ plans?

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1 hour ago, lakin1013 said:

For me, the problem involves Sansa's motives. Is she for the North?  Her words say so except when we consider that Sansa could not be bothered to defend the North by taking sword lessons or learn any type of offensive skills.  Her words say so except when we consider that while in the crypts, Sansa did NOTHING to comfort her fellow Northerners.  Her words say so yet she spent time in the crypts hiding behind a headstone.  Sometimes I think Sansa doesn't like Dany because Dany is prettier than her.  And sometimes, I think about Cersei's prophecy and how Sansa and Dany are engaged in their own little ...another younger, prettier (Sansa) ... to cast down and take all she holds dear (Dany)

 

I honestly don't see a problem with Sansa not defending Winterfell with a sword in hand. Why would she? She isn't a warrior, she is a noble lady. Not everyone can be a warrior. If she fought (on the walls or in the crypts), she would be probably killed in a second and that wouldn't help anyone. Imo it would be very out of her character if she suddenly became a warrior princess. If we question why Sansa didn't fight, I suppose that we can also question why Varys didn't fight, why Tyrion didn't fight, why Gilly didn't fight or why Missandei didn't fight.

 

1 hour ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

What's Sansa ultimate goal here with telling Tyrion about Jon. Independent North or not bending the knee to Dany? Will Sansa still want a independent North if Jon claims the IT probably not. If Sansa thinks Dany is some mad queen in the making, then telling Tyrion Jons secret puts Jon in danger, no?

I'd say both. Dany would once again degrade the North to just a province, she basically said it herself. Sansa doesn't want it when her family got so much sh*t from kings and queens already and when it took her family so much effort to get their home back. Dany would never allow the North to become independent (if she did, she and Sansa would probably be allies). On the other hand, I think that Jon as the king would probably let the North be independent. Even if he didn't, I suppose that it wouldn't bother Sansa that much because she knows Jon and Jon knows the North.

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Posted (edited)

I just see all of them betraying others and scheming.  Isn’t this what Sansa learned to do by watching and learning from Cersei, Ramsay, and Littlefinger?  She is no little bird anymore. Varys can never stay true to one king as Tyrion pointed out.  Tyrion has already showed signs of divided loyalties which Dany was suspicious of since last season.  He will probably be like Tywin who betrayed Aerys and switched sides.  Dany is jealous and afraid Jon is an ultimate threat to her quest as queen.   

Edited by TheFirstofHerName

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I find it interesting everyone is holding Sansa to an oath she made Jon before hearing what she was swearing to! Did you blame Jon for breaking his oath in books to go save (f)Arya or when he slept with Ygritte? Coz I didn't. How about all the NW who went to mole's town? Or robert for having affairs?

So many people break oaths, knowing what they mean in the books and show. Sansa swore before she heard what the secret was. And she didn't seem to want to be telling everyone. She told Tyrion after seeing he was scared of Dany. I would if I was worried about my brother/cousin being manipulated and possibly for his life.

Yes Sansa wants an independent North. She aso wants her pack to suvive. Why should she do whatever she thinks is in everyone's best interests?

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3 minutes ago, north of the wall said:

I find it interesting everyone is holding Sansa to an oath she made Jon before hearing what she was swearing to! Did you blame Jon for breaking his oath in books to go save (f)Arya or when he slept with Ygritte? Coz I didn't. How about all the NW who went to mole's town? Or robert for having affairs?

So many people break oaths, knowing what they mean in the books and show. Sansa swore before she heard what the secret was. And she didn't seem to want to be telling everyone. She told Tyrion after seeing he was scared of Dany. I would if I was worried about my brother/cousin being manipulated and possibly for his life.

Yes Sansa wants an independent North. She aso wants her pack to suvive. Why should she do whatever she thinks is in everyone's best interests?

This was not her call to make. This was John’s decision what to make out of it and with whom to share it or not. Perhaps John and Dany could have a chance together but now she got in between. 

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1 minute ago, #teamNightking said:

The last minute entry: Gendry Baratheon. The only one left I don't dislike. 

Maybe Davos can be his Hand?

He is the only one that makes sense at this point. So naturally he will not be the king. 

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5 minutes ago, north of the wall said:

I find it interesting everyone is holding Sansa to an oath she made Jon before hearing what she was swearing to!

That's surprising to you? An oath of secrecy makes only sense before you learn the secret. 

They are siblings, they trust each other and if she swears an oath she has to keep it -- he is one of her most trusted family members after all.

7 minutes ago, north of the wall said:

Did you blame Jon for breaking his oath

Breaking oaths like that of the Night's Watch is a different thing. This is a formal oath, you are pressured into it, you have no real choice. Sansa had a choice. She could have denied to swear or even to listen. She gave her word on a very personal basis to a most trusted family member. Sansa's behaviour is just really shitty, way below acceptable.

She now reached the level of Littlefinger. Despicable.

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1 minute ago, Nightwish said:

This was not her call to make. This was John’s decision what to make out of it and with whom to share it or not. Perhaps John and Dany could have a chance together but now she got in between. 

I don't agree. Like I said I'd be the same if I were in her shoes. She feels like her pack are in danger from Dany, she wants to protect Jon, the North. She didn't go shouting it from the settlements for everyone to hear. She told Tyrion because she saw his fear of Dany and she still hadn't fully thought this situation through yet. She did what she felt was best. We will wait and see if she is wrong, but so far she seems to be right not to trust Dany

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