Sansa breaking her oath and the Anti-Daenerys conspiracy

[btfu806]

9 hours ago, Remember said:

To be fair, they can't write men either. Maybe even moreso. At least women are the heart of the story right now.  

Has everyone missed on Tyrion being the worst advisor in history, despite being "clever"? Varys going mute for episodes at a time? Jon Snow being the most vanilla character since Ned Stark? Tormund just a frat boy? One note Euron? Boring ass Grey Worm? Gendry just as Arya's crush? The only interesting men are Jaime and the Hound, and you can argue that depending on whether Jaimie saves or kills Cersei this entire Arc has been ruined as much as Sansa's or Danny's. 

So yeah, D&D can't write women. But they can't write men either!

You're absolutely right, they can't.

I guess since right now it seems women are the focus of the story (nothing wrong with that before I get yelled at by someone) so more attention is put on them and the awful writing associated with.

But Jamie/Tyrion/Bran/Jon, all freaking awfully written characters.... Actually now rereading your post where you mention even more male characters, there isn't a single good one at this point..

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, Nightwish said:

I still don’t understand the argument, if you see someone so dangerous and protective of their position as you describe Dany, it just doesn’t make sense throwing John in the arena, after he has made an agreement. 

The result mathematical will be turning the one against the other without their notion. 

The key point here is that John doesn’t want the throne, Sansa knows it, knows the agreement they made, and still works her plot behind their backs. 

Varys to me is a plot hole making Sansa even more dangerous and naive. 

Even with Ned’s case the further you stay from a nuts person the better. If we consider Dany mad and ruthless for her claim you don’t press John’s identity at this point unless you want to assasinate her behind her back and throw to John the blame. 

Rewatch the scene, maybe several times, as it comes across that you've not paid attention to it at all. Then look at your own points above. If you don't understand after that, you're being willfully ignorant.

Everything hinges on Dany's words here: "I wish you'd never told me. If I didn't know, I'd be happy right now." 

 

[Nightwish]

1 minute ago, Lollygag said:

Rewatch the scene, maybe several times, as it comes across that you've not paid attention to it at all. Then look at your own points above. If you don't understand after that, you're being willfully ignorant.

Everything hinges on Dany's words here: "I wish you'd never told me. If I didn't know, I'd be happy right now." 

 

Again sorry I don't understand your point, other than calling me ignorant, what are you trying to prove?  

[Lollygag]

12 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Again sorry I don't understand your point, other than calling me ignorant, what are you trying to prove?  

Sansa didn't start anything. She was reacting to a threat that already existed per Dany's own words above. Dany will never be happy because the real problem is that Dany knows. It snowballs from there. And Sansa knows that the real problem is Dany knowing because she's lived it before. Ned swore that Joff was the true heir before all and got his head cut off anyhow. Promises, vows and agreements don't matter in this. Dany explains why.

And on the side, if your responses upthread to other posters are in the least bit representative of anything in Dany's head as you sometimes put forward as Dany's perspective, then you justified Sansa's worry right there. 

Ignorant and willfully ignorant are two vastly different things. 

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Nightwish said:

I still don’t understand the argument, if you see someone so dangerous and protective of their position as you describe Dany, it just doesn’t make sense throwing John in the arena, after he has made an agreement. 

I think Sansa wants to force the issue.

[Lollygag]

Just now, SeanF said:

I think Sansa wants to force the issue.

Yes. She thinks the issue coming to a head is inevitable and she's making sure it happens on her own terms, not Dany's, to try to make sure Jon doesn't get the Ned treatment. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

6 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Sansa didn't start anything. She was reacting to a threat that already existed per Dany's own words above. Dany will never be happy because the real problem is that Dany knows. It snowballs from there. And Sansa knows that the real problem is Dany knowing because she's lived it before. Ned swore that Joff was the true heir before all and got his head cut off anyhow. Promises, vows and agreements don't matter in this. Dany explains why.

Exactly, that scene was really telling - the origin of the conflict is Dany. She is not able to share power in any shape or form. Did you also notice that Jon decides to make the grand gesture of a knee bend when she says:

"IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU WANT. What happens when they demand you press your claim and TAKE WHAT IS MINE?"

Jon has a reaction shot facing the camera (framed the same way as his scene with Littlefinger). He's trying to think of ways to stop making her feel threatened. He calls her my queen and kneels (mirroring the Cersei/Euron scene). Then he says "I don't know what else to say" because he's out of script (he could say he loves her but he does not - that's SO telling).

As soon as she said "take what is mine" I felt like Jon knew how she was going to finish that sentence...the audience should too.

He's placating her while Sansa is provoking her and this is resulting in a false conflict between Jon and Sansa (he is still siding with his family). It is a push-and-pull around Dany, who is the original antagonist. Jon could tell Sansa about his methods but I think he's trying not to show any evidence that he's treasonous. Because Tyrion even says he has treasonous thoughts when it comes to Dany. I think Jon absolutely does. And that's why he looks trapped. He himself is the threat, just by being who he is and he can't see a way out. 

[Nightwish]

26 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Sansa didn't start anything. She was reacting to a threat that already existed per Dany's own words above. Dany will never be happy because the real problem is that Dany knows. It snowballs from there. And Sansa knows that the real problem is Dany knowing because she's lived it before.

And on the side, if your responses upthread to other posters are in the least bit representative of anything in Dany's head as you sometimes put forward as Dany's perspective, then you justified Sansa's worry right there. 

Ignorant and willfully ignorant are two vastly different things. 

No I don't. My quote was the following: 

if you see someone so dangerous and protective of their position as you describe Dany, it just doesn’t make sense throwing John in the arena, after he has made an agreement. 

And you never answered this question. So if Dany is such a big threat, as you say she is, it is wise from Sansa's part to make Dany believe that John betrayed her? Actually Sansa gives Dany a good asset there so she can execute him for betrayal since he has bend the knee and accepted her as his ruler. 

[Lollygag]

34 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

No I don't. My quote was the following: 

if you see someone so dangerous and protective of their position as you describe Dany, it just doesn’t make sense throwing John in the arena, after he has made an agreement. 

And you never answered this question. So if Dany is such a big threat, as you say she is, it is wise from Sansa's part to make Dany believe that John betrayed her? Actually Sansa gives Dany a good asset there so she can execute him for betrayal since he has bend the knee and accepted her as his ruler. 

I said your replies upthread to other posters, not me. But you made my point for me with the red. If Dany's thoughts ever remotely resemble this or your other comments upthread, then Sansa is 100% right to back Jon up in whatever way. 

The clip is the answer. Sansa isn't make believing that Jon's betrayed her. Dany herself says Sansa's the problem in that scene and Sansa knows that Dany will blame her before she blames Jon. And by Jon telling Sansa and Arya, he's put targets onto their backs (and Bran's and Sam's). Rewatch the scene. 

 

 

[Nightwish]

57 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I said your replies upthread to other posters, not me. But you made my point for me with the red. If Dany's thoughts ever remotely resemble this or your other comments upthread, then Sansa is 100% right to back Jon up in whatever way. 

The clip is the answer. Sansa isn't make believing that Jon's betrayed her. Dany herself says Sansa's the problem in that scene and Sansa knows that Dany will blame her before she blames Jon. And by Jon telling Sansa and Arya, he's put targets onto their backs (and Bran's and Sam's). Rewatch the scene. 

 

 

oh please don't twist my words, Sansa's action will lead Dany to believe that John betrayed her and so its totally the opposite Sansa is 100% endagering Jon up in whatever way. 

Quote

And by Jon telling Sansa and Arya, he's put targets onto their backs (and Bran's and Sam's). Rewatch the scene. 

So according to your logic since Jon has put targets as you say onto their backs, Sansa just gave to Dany the right excuse to shoot the arrows? What exactly do you wait to come out of that? 

The thing she did was totally stupid. 

John has bended the knee either as John Stark or Aegon Targaryen and has no interest for the throne. If he had, the right thing to do would be to claim it openly and go get it from Cersei. He is a man of honor and men of honor don't take the power by scheming behind the back of the person they openly support.  

Sansa told this to Tyrion so he could say that to Varys so they would plan how to eliminate Dany. Sansa gave them another option for a ruler so they could get rid of Dany, because she never liked her. Apparently John is a better option; She can control him and so can the rest.

Going behind her back when they openly made an agreement and recognized her as their queen = treason.

She then has every right to move against them. 

[Lollygag]

12 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

oh please don't twist my words, Sansa's action may will lead Dany to believe that John betrayed her and so its totally the opposite Sansa is 100% endagering Jon up in whatever way.  

So according to your logic since Jon has put targets as you say onto their backs, Sansa just gave to Dany the right excuse to shoot the arrows? 

John has bended the knee either as John Stark or Aegon Targaryen and has no interest for the throne. If he had the right thing to do would be to claim it openly and go get it from Cersei. Not giving his promise he will support Dany. He is a man of honor and men of honor don't take the power by scheming behind the back of the person they openly support.   

 

As I said before, it's a calculated risk on her part. She thinks it's worse to do nothing which is why she's clearly conflicted in that scene. And Dany will blame Sansa first. Did you miss the brick-upside-the-head obvious Mean Girls crap that's been drilled into the viewers? Did you miss Dany explicitly blaming Sansa? She might well come to blame Jon if she gets really off the rails, but it's willful ignorance to not recognize Dany will blame Sansa first. 

Also as I said before, Dany doesn't need an excuse. She thinks Sansa will start stuff just by being told. So Sansa might as well act. She knows it's coming eventually. 

Last paragraph: that is what you think. The thoughts that Dany actually expressed on screen are very different. And also as I said before, we learned in season 1 from Ned that one's beloved honor can get you and your loved ones killed. F*** honor. It led to the war of the 5 kings and all of the crap that stemmed from it. It's a major theme of the books that oaths and honor are sometimes at odds with doing the right thing. Ned got his head cut off. But hey, you have honor, right? Oh wait, you have nothing now...you're dead. Even Ned figured that out though too late. 

I'm noticing a pattern or two here...

[LucyMormont]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

I said your replies upthread to other posters, not me. But you made my point for me with the red. If Dany's thoughts ever remotely resemble this or your other comments upthread, then Sansa is 100% right to back Jon up in whatever way. 

The clip is the answer. Sansa isn't make believing that Jon's betrayed her. Dany herself says Sansa's the problem in that scene and Sansa knows that Dany will blame her before she blames Jon. And by Jon telling Sansa and Arya, he's put targets onto their backs (and Bran's and Sam's). Rewatch the scene. 

 

 

To me. the scene only proves that Dany was right, and Jon was wrong about trusting Sansa.  It's a nice parallel with the situation of Tyrion  trusting Cersei.  Danaerys reads Sansa well, and Jon doesn't, he thought that Sansa was trustworthy.

This is always Jon's weakness, he thinks too well of people. He can't read accurately neither Sansa, nor Daenerys.

Sansa would be right in backing Jon, but NOT in whatever way she sees fit, she must back Jon in the way HE wants. He bent the knee before knowing he had a claim, and he reaffirmed his allegiance after knowing it, he is backing Danaerys claim. 

All Sansa did is putting Jon in more danger.

[Lollygag]

Just now, LucyMormont said:

To me. the scene only proves that Dany was right, and Jon was wrong about trusting Sansa.  It's a nice parallel with the situation of Tyrion  trusting Cersei.  Danaerys reads Sansa well, and Jon doesn't, he thought that Sansa was trustworthy. 

This is always Jon's weakness, he thinks too well of people. He can't read accurately neither Sansa, nor Daenerys.

 

Sansa would be right in backing Jon, but NOT in whatever way she sees fit, she must back Jon in the way HE, 

It's a circle actually. They both prove each other right. Dany was right to not trust Sansa, but once Jon told Sansa, we know that Dany will expect her to act.. Not just in this, but I'm wondering if this season has a lot of self-fulfilling behaviors amounting to people behaving the way people expect them to behave because they created that situation themselves. 

I agree, but Sansa's not there to do anything like that. It would only leave the option of doing nothing. But Tyrion and Varys will be there. 

[Wik]

21 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

To me. the scene only proves that Dany was right, and Jon was wrong about trusting Sansa.  It's a nice parallel with the situation of Tyrion  trusting Cersei.  Danaerys reads Sansa well, and Jon doesn't, he thought that Sansa was trustworthy.

This is always Jon's weakness, he thinks too well of people. He can't read accurately neither Sansa, nor Daenerys.

 

Sansa would be right in backing Jon, but NOT in whatever way she sees fit, she must back Jon in the way HE, 

That scene happens before Sansa and Arya are told, isn't it? 

So, you are using hind sight that none of the characters have available to them. 

I'm conflicted here anyway.....I always have felt Dany would die. At this point, I just literally don't care and all the complaining that Sansa is a bitch and devious etc etc makes me laugh to the point where I do hope that she opposes Dany openly and honestly and causes her to die. Icing on the cake imo after what Aerys did to Ned's father and brother. 

[Raksha 2014]

5 minutes ago, Wik said:

That scene happens before Sansa and Arya are told, isn't it? 

So, you are using hind sight that none of the characters have available to them. 

I'm conflicted here anyway.....I always have felt Dany would die. At this point, I just literally don't care and all the complaining that Sansa is a bitch and devious etc etc makes me laugh to the point where I do hope that she opposes Dany openly and honestly and causes her to die. Icing on the cake imo after what Aerys did to Ned's father and brother. 

 

I've been a Sansa fan all along; and can understand her distrust of Daenerys; but Daenerys is in no way to blame for her father's depredations.

[Nightwish]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

 

As I said before, it's a calculated risk on her part. She thinks it's worse to do nothing which is why she's clearly conflicted in that scene. And Dany will blame Sansa first. Did you miss the brick-upside-the-head obvious Mean Girls crap that's been drilled into the viewers? Did you miss Dany explicitly blaming Sansa? She might well come to blame Jon if she gets really off the rails, but it's willful ignorance to not recognize Dany will blame Sansa first. 

Also as I said before, Dany doesn't need an excuse. She thinks Sansa will start stuff just by being told. So Sansa might as well act. She knows it's coming eventually. 

Last paragraph: that is what you think. The thoughts that Dany actually expressed on screen are very different. And also as I said before, we learned in season 1 from Ned that one's beloved honor can get you and your loved ones killed. F*** honor. It led to the war of the 5 kings and all of the crap that stemmed from it. It's a major theme of the books that oaths and honor are sometimes at odds with doing the right thing. Ned got his head cut off. But hey, you have honor, right? Oh wait, you have nothing now...you're dead. Even Ned figured that out though too late. 

I'm noticing a pattern or two here...

 And I said many things before that you willingly ignore just repeating yourself with points that actually contradict each other because either Daenairys is dangerous and Sansa should shut up or Dany is ok but Sansa wants to get her because she hates her from the time she stepped in the North. 

Also Sansa’s PTSD is not an excuse so she can plot to get rid of Dany behind John’s back. 

Sansa has the idea that she should rule the North and now she wants also Westeros. 

What kind of protection either way can Varys offer?

[Wik]

17 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

I've been a Sansa fan all along; and can understand her distrust of Daenerys; but Daenerys is in no way to blame for her father's depredations.

I won't argue but anytime the child of a tyrant comes of age, people will always WONDER, and the Starks , more than any other family, suffered at this particular tyrant's hand. 

Along with that, it is pretty obvious that Dany preaches and prattles on and on about the IT being HERS. Her right, her throne, her her her. Even after landing in Westeros she hasn't done much in the way of winning people to her cause. She has been obsessed with Jon and now with the family reveal those waters are muddied. But still, she refers to it as HER throne, even now when she knows her claim is 2nd best. 

Clearly, she is heading to some crazy Targ breakdown, so while you are right, you can't judge the daughter for the father's actions, I think we all know she is about to make something glow.....

[Lollygag]

47 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

All Sansa did is putting Jon in more danger. 

Jon's already in some danger for the reasons Dany stated. Replay the end of that clip. Dany threatens him (dead eyes, lowered voice, clenched jaw) if he tells Sansa and Arya and Jon pulls his hands back suddenly. Even Jon understood the threat. 

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, Nightwish said:

 And I said many things before that you willingly ignore just repeating yourself with points that actually contradict each other because either Daenairys is dangerous and Sansa should shut up or Dany is ok but Sansa wants to get her because she hates her from the time she stepped in the North. 

Also Sansa’s PTSD is not an excuse so she can plot to get rid of Dany behind John’s back. 

Sansa has the idea that she should rule the North and now she wants also Westeros. 

What kind of protection either way can Varys offer?

I explained why those points don't work for me. In turn, you don't reply with a counter point, so yes, I repeat myself. Just like you haven't provided any counter points to my previous post and just raised new stuff. And tell me where I said anything to the effect of "Daenerys is dangerous and Sansa should shut up" or "Dany is ok but Sansa wants to get her because she hates her from the time she stepped in the North." What are you even talking about here? 

All of the main characters are reacting from some form of past event or past trauma. That's Sansa's version. Dany's done nothing to reassure Sansa except the initial transparent and condescending complements that even the Branbot 2000 called out as BS. She hasn't convinced much of anyone else either and just idly waits for folks to come around and then doesn't understand why they don't.*** When Jon and Dany meet, a whole bunch of her speech is about her hard past. But the real reasons that Sansa is scheming are the reasons Dany herself said in the clip. Which I'm repeating again because your stock reply is to ignore it and go on about how Jon's agreement is fine and nevermind that Dany explicitly said that it is not fine. And what you dismiss as just Sansa's PTSD is called The Game of Thrones. It's a thing. Dany believes in it. But you keep ignoring that.

Sansa wants nothing to do with KL and the IT. You said why: PTSD. Most folks with PTSD aren't thrilled to relive it. She said herself in that scene that Starks who go south don't come back. This Sansa wants to be queen of Westeros is getting really old especially as time passes and there's still no evidence for it in her words or behavior. But folks keep repeating it over and over like a broken record player without substantiating it in any way. It's funny as hell that you criticize Sansa for her imagined ambitions to the IT while praising Dany despite her explicitly repeating her aspirations to the IT as if the viewers have the memories of goldfish. 

If you recalled the early seasons of the show and the books, you wouldn't have to ask what protection Varys could offer.

 

***This is D&D's character assassination. Earlier Dany would have noticed the problem and adapted to it. Unless the point is to imply that book Dany kinda turns into Stannis in that she's iron and will break before she bends. Then, wtf? 

[Stark_in_Winterfell]

On 5/6/2019 at 2:00 PM, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

Tyrion already knows. Bran told him a long time ago. Sansa will probably be accused of telling. Bran didn't take the oath.

I don't know where I got that. I'm in graduate school analyzing literature and politics. I can't seem to keep them separated from GOT in my mind. I need more wine.