Sansa breaking her oath and the Anti-Daenerys conspiracy

[keira_targaryen]

Hmm, I think we might have in hand another plot made by the stark siblings. We didn't see what they talked about after Jon asked Bran to tell Arya and Sansa the truth. Jon never said he loved Daenerys, and when we watch the scene between them, Jon looks at her with eyes wide open, he understands what Daenerys is. A danger to him and to his family. And he made them promise something he was about to tell them, in the end it was Bran who TOLD them. Arya left to Kingslanding after knowing R+L=J.  It looks a lot like the Littlefinger plot from season 7. We didn't see how the Stark siblings planned Littlefingers demise but we saw the outcome. I have a feeling this is the same. And all started the moment Sam asked Jon "you gave up your crown for your people, would she do the same?" And the weird looks Bran kept giving Tyrion in every episode(after their reunion in the Goodwood Sansa tells Tyrion about Jon), the face Arya makes when Daenerys talks back to Sansa. To me it seems that maybe Jon isn't as good as everyone think he is, and maybe Sansa didn't betray any promise.

[LucyMormont]

1 hour ago, Wik said:

That scene happens before Sansa and Arya are told, isn't it? 

So, you are using hind sight that none of the characters have available to them. 

I'm conflicted here anyway.....I always have felt Dany would die. At this point, I just literally don't care and all the complaining that Sansa is a bitch and devious etc etc makes me laugh to the point where I do hope that she opposes Dany openly and honestly and causes her to die. Icing on the cake imo after what Aerys did to Ned's father and brother. 

That's the point. Neither Dany nor Jon knows what Sansa would do if she is trusted with this information. Dany rightly assumes Sansa will begin to work to put Jon on the IT and get rid of her. She has motives to think so, Sansa has been hostile towards her from the beginning, with no good reason, just that she doesn't know her and she is the daughter of the mad King who wronged her family. 

Jon, on the other side, assumes Sansa is trustworthy,  he loves her, and he is not the kind of guy that can live forever in a lie with his family. On a side note, this makes you feel how hard it must have been for Ned too, you realize that he never talked about Lyanna because he hated to have to lie, and one thing is to keep a secret by being silent, and another is to have to  tell lies all the time to maintain a fiction. That is what Jon would have to do, if he don't tell his sisters. Jon feels that he owes them the truth, but only because he believes they would never betray him. I can understand him, because she is talking to his sister, not to the Lady of Winterfell, a political player. 

Jon is wrong, both in trusting Dany and in trusting Sansa. He has only seen Dany's better side, he's seen her good intentions and her sacrifice, he's seen her doing the right thing going North to face the Dead; but at least the Tarlys thing should have raised a red flag to him, and also her reaction when and after she knew who he was, increasingly focused on the competing claim and not on the personal/family bond. 

And about Sansa, even if can't blame him for trusting her, he should at least been aware that this could actually be a potential disaster. Didn't he learn anything from Maester Aemon? He told Jon that no matter how clearly he removed himself from the line of succesion and stated that he didn't want the Throne, always would appear  people willing to use him against his brother. He is in the same position Maester Aemon was. 

About Sansa opposing Dany openly, well, I'd feel more sympathy for her if she had done that. But I think we can rule out Sansa saying "We are forever grateful to Daenerys Targaryen, but the North pledges ist allegiance to my cousin and adoptive brother Aegon Targaryen, trueborn son of crowned Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and his wife Lady Lyanna Stark..."

 

[LucyMormont]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Jon's already in some danger for the reasons Dany stated. Replay the end of that clip. Dany threatens him (dead eyes, lowered voice, clenched jaw) if he tells Sansa and Arya and Jon pulls his hands back suddenly. Even Jon understood the threat. 

You are clearly on Sansa's side. I was always team Stark, true to my nickname, but in this I think they are all wrong. Jon was wrong in trusting Sansa and is also wrong in trusting  Dany, Sansa is wrong in breaking Jon's trust, and Dany is wrong in asking him to live a lie, she should have proposed marriage and share power. 

I wouldn't say that she is threatening HIM, in that moment she is stating clearly that things won't go the way he thinks will go if he tells Sansa, and that Sansa will work for him to press his claim, so that the only way they'll be able to live "together" is by him shutting his mouth and asking Bran and Sam to shut their mouths. 

[Wik]

14 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

That's the point. Neither Dany nor Jon knows what Sansa would do if she is trusted with this information. Dany rightly assumes Sansa will begin to work to put Jon on the IT and get rid of her. She has motives to think so, Sansa has been hostile towards her from the beginning, with no good reason, just that she doesn't know her and she is the daughter of the mad King who wronged her family. 

Jon, on the other side, assumes Sansa is trustworthy,  he loves her, and he is not the kind of guy that can live forever in a lie with his family. On a side note, this makes you feel how hard it must have been for Ned too, you realize that he never talked about Lyanna because he hated to have to lie, and one thing is to keep a secret by being silent, and another is to have to  tell lies all the time to maintain a fiction. That is what Jon would have to do, if he don't tell his sisters. Jon feels that he owes them the truth, but only because he believes they would never betray him. I can understand him, because she is talking to his sister, not to the Lady of Winterfell, a political player. 

Jon is wrong, both in trusting Dany and in trusting Sansa. He has only seen Dany's better side, he's seen her good intentions and her sacrifice, he's seen her doing the right thing going North to face the Dead; but at least the Tarlys thing should have raised a red flag to him, and also her reaction when and after she knew who he was, increasingly focused on the competing claim and not on the personal/family bond. 

And about Sansa, even if can't blame him for trusting her, he should at least been aware that this could actually be a potential disaster. Didn't he learn anything from Maester Aemon? He told Jon that no matter how clearly he removed himself from the line of succesion and stated that he didn't want the Throne, always would appear  people willing to use him against his brother. He is in the same position Maester Aemon was. 

About Sansa opposing Dany openly, well, I'd feel more sympathy for her if she had done that. But I think we can rule out Sansa saying "We are forever grateful to Daenerys Targaryen, but the North pledges ist allegiance to my cousin and adoptive brother Aegon Targaryen, trueborn son of crowned Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and his wife Lady Lyanna Stark..."

 

Look at the stigma today of men like Stalin and Hitler. I don't, to my own knowledge, have family that were directly impacted by either of their actions. But I can still see what they did and think it was horrible. And if I knew someone that was a descendant of them, even though they never DIRECTLY impacted my family, I wouldn't be in a hurry to be friends. 

NOW, lets assume that a direct family member of mine WAS murdered by one of them. And I knew that as direct descendant. Even if I wasn't alive during that period, I would have ill-will towards that person. They wronged my FAMILY. 

Obviously, the show doesn't go as in depth as the books can and likely will, but I think it's very possible and to me, would be pretty obvious, that Sansa, among other things, sees Dany as the daughter of the nut who killed two members of her family. 

That doesn't explain all of it, certainly, i'm not saying it would. But how people think Sansa should be SOOOO loyal to Dany is mystifying to me. 

It's all good though, we will see how it all plays out in 2 weeks. Until then, we will just have to agree to disagree. 

[starklover]

12 minutes ago, Wik said:

Look at the stigma today of men like Stalin and Hitler. I don't, to my own knowledge, have family that were directly impacted by either of their actions. But I can still see what they did and think it was horrible. And if I knew someone that was a descendant of them, even though they never DIRECTLY impacted my family, I wouldn't be in a hurry to be friends. 

NOW, lets assume that a direct family member of mine WAS murdered by one of them. And I knew that as direct descendant. Even if I wasn't alive during that period, I would have ill-will towards that person. They wronged my FAMILY. 

Obviously, the show doesn't go as in depth as the books can and likely will, but I think it's very possible and to me, would be pretty obvious, that Sansa, among other things, sees Dany as the daughter of the nut who killed two members of her family. 

That doesn't explain all of it, certainly, i'm not saying it would. But how people think Sansa should be SOOOO loyal to Dany is mystifying to me. 

It's all good though, we will see how it all plays out in 2 weeks. Until then, we will just have to agree to disagree. 

i agree . the reason why she dislikes her  isbecause of what her father did. is it right? no 

[starklover]

39 minutes ago, keira_targaryen said:

Hmm, I think we might have in hand another plot made by the stark siblings. We didn't see what they talked about after Jon asked Bran to tell Arya and Sansa the truth. Jon never said he loved Daenerys, and when we watch the scene between them, Jon looks at her with eyes wide open, he understands what Daenerys is. A danger to him and to his family. And he made them promise something he was about to tell them, in the end it was Bran who TOLD them. Arya left to Kingslanding after knowing R+L=J.  It looks a lot like the Littlefinger plot from season 7. We didn't see how the Stark siblings planned Littlefingers demise but we saw the outcome. I have a feeling this is the same. And all started the moment Sam asked Jon "you gave up your crown for your people, would she do the same?" And the weird looks Bran kept giving Tyrion in every episode(after their reunion in the Goodwood Sansa tells Tyrion about Jon), the face Arya makes when Daenerys talks back to Sansa. To me it seems that maybe Jon isn't as good as everyone think he is, and maybe Sansa didn't betray any promise.

jon does know that she wants power more then anything. if she really loved him she would have married him and wouldnt have told him not to anyone about who he is. 

[Nightwish]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

I explained why those points don't work for me. In turn, you don't reply with a counter point, so yes, I repeat myself. Just like you haven't provided any counter points to my previous post and just raised new stuff. And tell me where I said anything to the effect of "Daenerys is dangerous and Sansa should shut up" or "Dany is ok but Sansa wants to get her because she hates her from the time she stepped in the North." What are you even talking about here? 

All of the main characters are reacting from some form of past event or past trauma. That's Sansa's version. Dany's done nothing to reassure Sansa except the initial transparent and condescending complements that even the Branbot 2000 called out as BS. She hasn't convinced much of anyone else either and just idly waits for folks to come around and then doesn't understand why they don't.*** When Jon and Dany meet, a whole bunch of her speech is about her hard past. But the real reasons that Sansa is scheming are the reasons Dany herself said in the clip. Which I'm repeating again because your stock reply is to ignore it and go on about how Jon's agreement is fine and nevermind that Dany explicitly said that it is not fine. And what you dismiss as just Sansa's PTSD is called The Game of Thrones. It's a thing. Dany believes in it. But you keep ignoring that.

Sansa wants nothing to do with KL and the IT. You said why: PTSD. Most folks with PTSD aren't thrilled to relive it. She said herself in that scene that Starks who go south don't come back. This Sansa wants to be queen of Westeros is getting really old especially as time passes and there's still no evidence for it in her words or behavior. But folks keep repeating it over and over like a broken record player without substantiating it in any way. It's funny as hell that you criticize Sansa for her imagined ambitions to the IT while praising Dany despite her explicitly repeating her aspirations to the IT as if the viewers have the memories of goldfish. 

If you recalled the early seasons of the show and the books, you wouldn't have to ask what protection Varys could offer.

 

***This is D&D's character assassination. Earlier Dany would have noticed the problem and adapted to it. Unless the point is to imply that book Dany kinda turns into Stannis in that she's iron and will break before she bends. Then, wtf? 

 

Well that’s good with conversations they tend to move forward but in our case we can’t because you are trying to justify the unjustifiable. 

You want to go back and quote the times you said that John and Sansa are in danger? And Dany threatens them because that’s the John-Dany scene all about? Where is Dany threatening John?  Dany knows that Sansa hates her, it’s only logical for her to assume that she will use that knowledge against her. 

But it’s not Dany scheming anything behind Sansa’s back. It’s Sansa. In action. And either she does it because she doesn’t trust Dany, either she does it for her personal gain, she presents a bad character like a bad mother in law. 

Since you recall the early seasons and the books tell me what protection Varys can offer. Because he was rather useless the last seasons. 

No, it’s not funny as hell that I criticize Sansa because she does everything behind other people’s backs. She doesn’t have the courage to say what her real thoughts are because she is far too weak. Just like Littlefinger. Always scheming how to get what he wants but without ever having to confront anyone. Pure hypocrisy. 

At least she should have the guts to say to John that she didnt want Dany, but this would mean she would have to turn down her help  and confront John. Who would save the North? Sansa? 

As for PTSD yes it would be wise to control it if she is taking decisions and judges people due to trauma. 

 

 

[Lollygag]

1 minute ago, LucyMormont said:

You are clearly on Sansa's side. I was always team Stark, true to my nickname, but in this I think they are all wrong. Jon was wrong in trusting Sansa and is also wrong in trusting  Dany, Sansa is wrong in breaking Jon's trust, and Dany is wrong in asking him to live a lie, she should have proposed marriage and share power. 

I wouldn't say that she is threatening HIM, in that moment she is stating clearly that things won't go the way he thinks will go if he tells Sansa, and that Sansa will work for him to press his claim, so that the only way they'll be able to live "together" is by him shutting his mouth and asking Bran and Sam to shut their mouths. 

I'm on Sansa's side in this argument because of the Sansa bitching which has reduced her motives down to the usual broken record player Sansa bitching script without looking at the overall issue which is a lot more complicated. But Dany being suspect of Sansa before she even does anything makes sense, but that's on D&D for turning book Sansa (courtesy is a lady's armor and LF's lesson to keep your motives to yourself) into Sandra for the sake of drama. Sandra kinda had a hand in creating that DanyMonster. You get more flies with honey and all that. Dany is turned into early Stannis, I guess for drama too? 

But overall, I agree that all are wrong in significant ways. 

It's not a direct threat that would get one a restraining order, but if one follows that down the line, unless Dany has an epiphany in between, it won't result in anything good at all. 

 

[Lollygag]

20 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

 

Well that’s good with conversations they tend to move forward but in our case we can’t because you are trying to justify the unjustifiable. 

You want to go back and quote the times you said that John and Sansa are in danger? And Dany threatens them because that’s the John-Dany scene all about? Where is Dany threatening John?  Dany knows that Sansa hates her, it’s only logical for her to assume that she will use that knowledge against her. 

But it’s not Dany scheming anything behind Sansa’s back. It’s Sansa. In action. And either she does it because she doesn’t trust Dany, either she does it for her personal gain, she presents a bad character like a bad mother in law. 

Since you recall the early seasons and the books tell me what protection Varys can offer. Because he was rather useless the last seasons. 

Bloody finally! Thank you! There's one of Sansa's reasons. Sansa sees it coming from Dany because Dany thinks it's coming from Sansa, but Jon's the one in the line of fire, the real threat to her claim.

As for the rest, I've addressed it already, or I'm not understanding your English, or you yet again side-stepped my points, or you're still not paying attention to the show, or you're just being obstinate (Varys is ineffective from bad writing which can change as the plot demands. I don't believe you're that stupid.)

~ Good night ~

[LucyMormont]

28 minutes ago, Wik said:

Look at the stigma today of men like Stalin and Hitler. I don't, to my own knowledge, have family that were directly impacted by either of their actions. But I can still see what they did and think it was horrible. And if I knew someone that was a descendant of them, even though they never DIRECTLY impacted my family, I wouldn't be in a hurry to be friends. 

NOW, lets assume that a direct family member of mine WAS murdered by one of them. And I knew that as direct descendant. Even if I wasn't alive during that period, I would have ill-will towards that person. They wronged my FAMILY. 

Obviously, the show doesn't go as in depth as the books can and likely will, but I think it's very possible and to me, would be pretty obvious, that Sansa, among other things, sees Dany as the daughter of the nut who killed two members of her family. 

That doesn't explain all of it, certainly, i'm not saying it would. But how people think Sansa should be SOOOO loyal to Dany is mystifying to me. 

It's all good though, we will see how it all plays out in 2 weeks. Until then, we will just have to agree to disagree. 

I think that for the audience is clear where the story is heading, there were enough signs that Dany will do something awful, or at least with horrible consequences. But Sansa is not the audience 

It's a pity the show does not go  in depth about all this conflict, and also about Jon's own inner identity crisis around all this. After all, this most hated Mad King of whom he's heard all his life and  who murdered his Stark grandfather and uncle, was his own grandfather too and he has his blood. 

 

[Nightwish]

22 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Bloody finally! Thank you! There's one of Sansa's reasons. Sansa sees it coming from Dany, but Jon's the one in the line of fire, the real threat to her claim.

Dany doesn't need to scheme. She just burns her adversaries alive. 

What you think you made a discovery?

https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a27085983/game-of-thrones-season-8-emilia-clarke-stark-sisters-hate-daenerys/

Sansa brought it upon herself but Dany didn’t do anything against her yet. If Sansa is acting out “I will get her so she doesn’t get me” that’s paranoia. 

[Wik]

4 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

But it’s not Dany scheming anything behind Sansa’s back. It’s Sansa.

 

I'm not here to argue that Sansa isn't using what she learned from LF against Dany. 

BUT for you to say that it's all Sansa and Dany is innocent is crazy to me. Regardless of Jon's feeling of being king or not, she is demanding that HE forgo his rightful inheritance to allow her to rule, not tell anyone about his heritage and just be her bed buddy. Then, regardless of if you think it's a threat or explanation, she "suggest" to Jon what could happen if word gets out. 

She literally is playing all sides here...she wants her claim, which is no longer the best, to supersede his, she wants Jon to tell no one, she wants Jon to be her toy, she wants Jon to fight for her and she wants Jon to reason/logic with his family on her behalf, again because it most benefits HER. 

[Lollygag]

5 minutes ago, Wik said:

I'm not here to argue that Sansa isn't using what she learned from LF against Dany. 

BUT for you to say that it's all Sansa and Dany is innocent is crazy to me. Regardless of Jon's feeling of being king or not, she is demanding that HE forgo his rightful inheritance to allow her to rule, not tell anyone about his heritage and just be her bed buddy. Then, regardless of if you think it's a threat or explanation, she "suggest" to Jon what could happen if word gets out. 

She literally is playing all sides here...she wants her claim, which is no longer the best, to supersede his, she wants Jon to tell no one, she wants Jon to be her toy, she wants Jon to fight for her and she wants Jon to reason/logic with his family on her behalf, again because it most benefits HER. 

I'm confused as to what arrangement they're leaning towards. So long as Dany is insisting that she rule alone, they can't marry. If Jon's identity gets out, it'll be the Jon Show and exactly what she's trying to avoid. So Jon is just supposed to hang out in KL like the new Daario or something? In Westeros? And then she marries for an alliance and she recreates Daario/Hizzy with Jon/someone else? And then she has the heir issue. Maybe she's thinking Gendry's kid? If so, she's starting a war just to put the Baratheon's back? Maybe Jon's kid with someone else but he's still be with Dany on the side? No one's thinking this stuff through. 

 

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

26 minutes ago, Wik said:

I'm not here to argue that Sansa isn't using what she learned from LF against Dany. 

BUT for you to say that it's all Sansa and Dany is innocent is crazy to me. Regardless of Jon's feeling of being king or not, she is demanding that HE forgo his rightful inheritance to allow her to rule, not tell anyone about his heritage and just be her bed buddy. Then, regardless of if you think it's a threat or explanation, she "suggest" to Jon what could happen if word gets out. 

She literally is playing all sides here...she wants her claim, which is no longer the best, to supersede his, she wants Jon to tell no one, she wants Jon to be her toy, she wants Jon to fight for her and she wants Jon to reason/logic with his family on her behalf, again because it most benefits HER. 

If Sansa’s recent behavior is representative of what she learned from Littlefinger, then she learned nothing. 

Openly defying Dany at this stage is dangerous. 

Dany has some real and significant issues she needs to overcome if she wants to rule wisely, but Sansa is deliberately antagonizing her for no good reason. She could accomplish much more by quietly observing and playing her hand behind the scenes. 

[Nightwish]

43 minutes ago, Wik said:

I'm not here to argue that Sansa isn't using what she learned from LF against Dany. 

BUT for you to say that it's all Sansa and Dany is innocent is crazy to me. Regardless of Jon's feeling of being king or not, she is demanding that HE forgo his rightful inheritance to allow her to rule, not tell anyone about his heritage and just be her bed buddy. Then, regardless of if you think it's a threat or explanation, she "suggest" to Jon what could happen if word gets out. 

She literally is playing all sides here...she wants her claim, which is no longer the best, to supersede his, she wants Jon to tell no one, she wants Jon to be her toy, she wants Jon to fight for her and she wants Jon to reason/logic with his family on her behalf, again because it most benefits HER. 

This is not regardless. This is the key point. If John had wanted the throne and told her about it and she demanded that he drops his claim or threaten him to do so, this would be another discussion. But he doesn’t want the throne. Besides The Throne is occupied by Cersei. He would have to conquer it first. 

So John passed on to Dany the right to claim the throne. It’s done. 

Personally I don’t even understand how Varys is going to support someone who doesn’t want to take the throne? Perhaps he will try to make John betray Dany? This doesn’t make sense whatsoever because even if he tries we know where John stands. 

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

1 minute ago, Nightwish said:

This is not regardless. This is the key point. If John had wanted the throne and told her about it and she demanded that he drops his claim or threaten him to do so, this would be another discussion. But he doesn’t want the throne. Besides The Throne is occupied by Cersei. He would have to conquer it first. 

Personally I don’t even understand how Varys is going to support someone who doesn’t want to take the throne? Perhaps he will try to make John betray Dany? This doesn’t make sense whatsoever because even if he tries we know where John stands. 

Jon is gentle, sensitive and easily manipulated, as we’ve seen in practice and have heard recently said by Sansa (men are easily manipulated by women). 

Henry Bolingbroke didn’t have any interest in the throne either, until he was manipulated and pressured into pushing his cousin off it for no good reason. 

[Nightwish]

7 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Jon is gentle, sensitive and easily manipulated, as we’ve seen in practice and have heard recently said by Sansa (men are easily manipulated by women). 

Henry Bolingbroke didn’t have any interest in the throne either, until he was manipulated and pressured into pushing his cousin off it for no good reason. 

Yes he is. An ideal candidate for the throne. Spending the next of his years in misery because  other people around him want to manipulate him as they are hungry for power themselves. 

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

2 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Yes he is. An ideal candidate for the throne. Spending the next of his years in misery because  other people around him want to manipulate him as they are hungry for power themselves. 

Just to clarify, I don’t think Jon being a big sweet squish is something that benefits him as a potential king, or that he should accept being King. He doesn’t want it, he’s not suited and he knows it.

Right now, the biggest threat to Jon is Sansa, bottom line.  

Out of the three main candidates we have, dany is the best choice for the throne assuming she makes some better choices going forward. (I’m not counting Gendry). 

[Wik]

2 hours ago, Nightwish said:

This is not regardless. This is the key point. If John had wanted the throne and told her about it and she demanded that he drops his claim or threaten him to do so, this would be another discussion. 

She did.....just because she didn't say "Abdicate or I'll murder you," doesn't mean she didn't threaten him...

[LucyMormont]

2 hours ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Jon is gentle, sensitive and easily manipulated, as we’ve seen in practice and have heard recently said by Sansa (men are easily manipulated by women). 

Henry Bolingbroke didn’t have any interest in the throne either, until he was manipulated and pressured into pushing his cousin off it for no good reason. 

I'll have to disagree with this. Jon is good hearted, honorable, and sometimes blinded to other people's not so good traits, but he is not as easily manipulated as you believe. We saw people trying to manipulate him using different means: Melisandre tried to manipulate him by lust. Stannis tried to manipulate him by offering him everything he always dreamed of as child:  Winterfell and above all,  erasing the bastardy stein (not much differently of what Dany did with Gendry this episode). There was nothing he wanted more than be labeled a true Stark.

Ygritte also tried to manipulate him by love and sense of honor (I'm your woman now, you can not fail your woman).

Yet, he always did what he thought was right, and none of them was able to make him follow their own wishes.