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Kajjo

Sansa breaking her oath and the Anti-Daenerys conspiracy

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4 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Do you feel it to be in-character for Sansa to break her formal oath by telling Tyrion about Jon's true parentage? The Starks as a dynasty appear to have kept a lot of secrets in Winterfell since generation. Jon is not the thought-to-be half-brother to Sansa, but her cousin.

She willfully and deliberately breaks her oath to further her own position of power. She starts a conspiracy against Daenerys and she really intends to do so. And Tyrion tells Varys, despite not wanting to be part of the conspiracy.

I understood that Varys turned against Daenerys and for the better of the realm would now prefer to support Jon Snow. Obviously, Jon Snow would be the better king and Varys keeps very straight-foward by selecting the bets candidate. Varys knows no loyalty. Tyrion is still supporting Daenerys, but unsure about it. Do you agree with this assessment?

Sansa shouldnt have broken her oath. Arya, Bran and Sam can keep their mouths shut about it, I don't see why she couldn't either. She did it to strengthen her position, since The North have sworn to Daenerys, that is treason, she's made the same mistakes her family made in the past even though she always said she wasn't going to be like them. When Jon finds out, he won't forgive her either. Shes become so obsessed with ruling the North alone that she's forgotten about her family. Its not going to end well. 

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1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

That's surprising to you? An oath of secrecy makes only sense before you learn the secret. 

They are siblings, they trust each other and if she swears an oath she has to keep it -- he is one of her most trusted family members after all.

Breaking oaths like that of the Night's Watch is a different thing. This is a formal oath, you are pressured into it, you have no real choice. Sansa had a choice. She could have denied to swear or even to listen. She gave her word on a very personal basis to a most trusted family member. Sansa's behaviour is just really shitty, way below acceptable.

She now reached the level of Littlefinger. Despicable.

Are you serious? Littlefinger level would be making decisions that get someone killed (knowing it would) just to create an atmosphere that gets her ahead. Sansa is only protecting her family the way she believes best. Whether this backfires or not we will see, but for me she has done this for love and not to create a chaos ladder for herself

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1 minute ago, cirah1712 said:

Sansa shouldnt have broken her oath. Arya, Bran and Sam can keep their mouths shut about it, I don't see why she couldn't either. She did it to strengthen her position, since The North have sworn to Daenerys, that is treason, she's made the same mistakes her family made in the past even though she always said she wasn't going to be like them. When Jon finds out, he won't forgive her either. Shes become so obsessed with ruling the North alone that she's forgotten about her family. Its not going to end well. 

This is what Ned did when he did not wrote down what Robert wanted. He lost his head. I don't see the same happening to Sansa. She is being set up as the Warden of the North, Lord Paramount and Lady of Winterfell. 

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1 minute ago, north of the wall said:

I don't agree. Like I said I'd be the same if I were in her shoes. She feels like her pack are in danger from Dany, she wants to protect Jon, the North. She didn't go shouting it from the settlements for everyone to hear. She told Tyrion because she saw his fear of Dany and she still hadn't fully thought this situation through yet. She did what she felt was best. We will wait and see if she is wrong, but so far she seems to be right not to trust Dany

 

John trusted her because he believed she could keep her oath.  Not because she would do what she thought best. Apparently she also wants to serve her own ambitions. She doesn’t trust John’s decisions and that’s overruling him. Apparently she judges she can rule even better than him. 

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1 hour ago, tinyskeeveuk said:

I think I'm the only one who really liked this part. The Starks are honourable and truthful to a fault. It's bloody annoying! They always put their honour before doing the right thing in most cases.

Sansa knows that Dany is not a good leader and won't be a good queen. She sees that Dany is becoming more and more tyrannical in her ruling, and it's at the detriment of the people. Sansa thinks of her people before power (i.e. asking for the soldiers to rest before marching to KL) and Dany doesn't. By breaking her oath and ruining Dany, she's putting her people first. She's not like the other Starks. 

 

Breaking her oath is dishonourable, even if it was for the right reasons. Yeah, shes not like the other Starks, but breaking an oath is sonething no Stark would ever do. I think her loyalties lie more with herself and the North then with her family. Bc Jon is still her family, and she betrayed him. 

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I can actually see Sansa doing this in the books. She probably will do something of the sort. It fits: her whole entire arc has been leading up to moments like this.

In any case, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The constant distrust, paranoia and indifference that the Westerosi show towards Dany (even though she makes these big gestures to prove that she means well and she wants to help) because of their fear that she is nothing more than the Mad King's daughter is pushing her over the edge.

And all of these dirty tricks and divided loyalties are making it worst.

It's almost as if they want her to be the Mad Queen.

4 minutes ago, north of the wall said:

I don't agree. Like I said I'd be the same if I were in her shoes. She feels like her pack are in danger from Dany, she wants to protect Jon, the North. She didn't go shouting it from the settlements for everyone to hear. She told Tyrion because she saw his fear of Dany and she still hadn't fully thought this situation through yet. She did what she felt was best. We will wait and see if she is wrong, but so far she seems to be right not to trust Dany

Come on.

Telling Jon's secret is not protecting Jon. It is hurting Jon and will continue to hurt Jon.

As we can see, it has put both Jon and Daenerys in terrible danger.

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5 minutes ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

I really hate how D&D are treating Sansa.  She was really great in episode 2, which was written by Cogman, but D&D just hate her.  F*** them.

Yes - I think what’s wrong here is the writing. I know we’re being led to believe Sansa is doing what’s right for the North, etc., but the writing is so shallow that many folks just think her behavior is childish and callous. We’re led to believe Jon is a great hero but the show isn’t showing that to us. We’re being led towards Dany is tyrannical and Mad Queen, but the writing is all over the place. 

This actually gives me hope that GRRM will hurry and finish his novels, to rectify this situation and give us the writing that this story truly deserves. 

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3 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

This is what Ned did when he did not wrote down what Robert wanted. He lost his head. I don't see the same happening to Sansa. She is being set up as the Warden of the North, Lord Paramount and Lady of Winterfell. 

She has repeated the same mistake as her father. I'm not saying she will lose her head for it, just maybe her family. Then again, I don't think she really cares about that part, as long as she gets to rule the North. 

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1 minute ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I can actually see Sansa doing this in the books. She probably will do something of the sort. It fits: her whole entire arc has been leading up to moments like this.

In any case, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The constant distrust, paranoia and indifference that the Westerosi show towards Dany (even though she makes these big gestures to prove that she means well and she wants to help) because of their fear that she is nothing more than the Mad King's daughter is pushing her over the edge.

And all of these dirty tricks and divided loyalties are making it worst.

It's almost as if they want her to be the Mad Queen.

Come on.

Telling Jon's secret is not protecting Jon. It is hurting Jon and will continue to hurt Jon.

As we can see, it has put both Jon and Daenerys in terrible danger.

How has it put Jon in danger? It's put Dany in danger of Varys  (someone Sansa didn't tell) but not Jon. I can definitely see it as her trying to protect Jon and everyone else in the North. Regardless of whether you agree with her decision or not isn't really what I'm arguing.

Sansa may have made a mistake in telling (we will wait and see) but to question why is what I am arguing about. I thought it was obvious she made the decision to tell Tyrion after seeing he is afraid of Dany. I still stand by the fact I would have done the same thing. If you think that's the wrong call, fine, but why question her reason for doing so?

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1 minute ago, north of the wall said:

How has it put Jon in danger? It's put Dany in danger of Varys  (someone Sansa didn't tell) but not Jon. I can definitely see it as her trying to protect Jon and everyone else in the North. Regardless of whether you agree with her decision or not isn't really what I'm arguing.

Sansa may have made a mistake in telling (we will wait and see) but to question why is what I am arguing about. I thought it was obvious she made the decision to tell Tyrion after seeing he is afraid of Dany. I still stand by the fact I would have done the same thing. If you think that's the wrong call, fine, but why question her reason for doing so?

She may be trying to protect Jon, but it won't. And it does put him in danger. Say the like of Cersei found out who he really was? He would be in serious trouble then. A secret like that can be fatal if it ends uo in the wrong hands. I known she only told Tyrion but word spreads. It also goes against Jons wishes, he doesn't want the throne, it seems like she is trying to push him into being King so she can have sole power over the North without interference from the South. She's not doing it for Jon, shes doing it for herself. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Do you feel it to be in-character for Sansa to break her formal oath by telling Tyrion about Jon's true parentage? The Starks as a dynasty appear to have kept a lot of secrets in Winterfell since generation. Jon is not the thought-to-be half-brother to Sansa, but her cousin.

She willfully and deliberately breaks her oath to further her own position of power. She starts a conspiracy against Daenerys and she really intends to do so. And Tyrion tells Varys, despite not wanting to be part of the conspiracy.

I understood that Varys turned against Daenerys and for the better of the realm would now prefer to support Jon Snow. Obviously, Jon Snow would be the better king and Varys keeps very straight-foward by selecting the bets candidate. Varys knows no loyalty. Tyrion is still supporting Daenerys, but unsure about it. Do you agree with this assessment?

What oath? Sansa has not, afaik, made an oath. 

Jon has, but the North have always needed to be convinced about their ruler... none of them have toasted Dany as their queen. Whether Dany likes it or not, she is neither the defacto queen sitting on the iron throne, nor the proclaimed king of the north... she is, at this point, just someone with a claim to the throne and a plan to take that throne by force.

She’s not the only one with a claim, Jon’s claim is better. 

The problem for Dany, and Dany apologists is that they are taking it as a fait accompli that Dany is the rightful ruler, and the deserved ruler. Those who are clear sighted have not yet been convinced that she is either. 

Her refusal to allow the injured soldiers to recover from their injuries speaks volumes about her attitude towards these people... and is the clincher for Sansa, who does care about those people, who are lest we forget, mostly made up of banner men and families in the North, they are not a merely trained army whose only job They have is to fight, who have no families like the unsullied, they are heads and sons of houses who could be be wiped out just like the Mormonts, but Dany doesn’t care. Ned would also have treated an army better than cannon fodder. As would Jon if he was being clear sighted right now. 

Sansa is clearly struggling with knowing Jon’s identity, struggling with knowing that he would be the better ruler, and she tells Tyrion because he is a “good man”, she trusts him to do the right thing, and sincerely doesn’t understand what he sees in Dany

 

edited to add... sorry I’m being thick... the promise to Jon is the oath you meant, doh... yeah, that was bad and Jon will find it hard to forgive... but I think she felt she had no choice as she doesn’t think he’s thinking clearly 

Edited by Figdoni

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, north of the wall said:

How has it put Jon in danger? It's put Dany in danger of Varys  (someone Sansa didn't tell) but not Jon. I can definitely see it as her trying to protect Jon and everyone else in the North. Regardless of whether you agree with her decision or not isn't really what I'm arguing.

Sansa may have made a mistake in telling (we will wait and see) but to question why is what I am arguing about. I thought it was obvious she made the decision to tell Tyrion after seeing he is afraid of Dany. I still stand by the fact I would have done the same thing. If you think that's the wrong call, fine, but why question her reason for doing so?

Protect him from whom? John gave an oath to Dany and made an agreement. If he had wanted to claim the Throne he was there, he could have said it to Dany himself. Sansa conveniently told Tyrion but had no idea to know if this information could fall to the wrong hands. John was lucky that Vary's wanted to support him he could be plotting his demise, seeing him as a threat.  

She should let John resolve this with Dany. Now John may face the accusation that he lied to Dany while secretly conspiring for her demise. Aka Vary's intentions may fall on John's head. 

Edited by Nightwish

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Posted (edited)

DANY is the one who made this dangerous. DANY is the one who made Jon even have to keep it a secret. Now Dany's biggest issue is he is more popular and could be chosen as ruler over her (how Viserys of her). She commands him. Which means Jon needs to lie to his family. She says it in her cool threatening voice too. And then she leaves and we get a long shot of Jon just standing there, thinking over what just happened. And then the next day (or so I assume) he tells Sansa and Arya the truth. JON DEFIED DANY'S ORDERS. This is the real story here, not this Sansa oathbreaking b.s.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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7 minutes ago, north of the wall said:

How has it put Jon in danger? It's put Dany in danger of Varys  (someone Sansa didn't tell) but not Jon. I can definitely see it as her trying to protect Jon and everyone else in the North. Regardless of whether you agree with her decision or not isn't really what I'm arguing.

Sansa may have made a mistake in telling (we will wait and see) but to question why is what I am arguing about. I thought it was obvious she made the decision to tell Tyrion after seeing he is afraid of Dany. I still stand by the fact I would have done the same thing. If you think that's the wrong call, fine, but why question her reason for doing so?

There's no way that this information (as Varys correctly noted it's no longer a secret) doesn't continue to snowball itself into an avalanche.

Jon doesn't want to be king. True, he didn't want to be king in the North but the North is his home, he thought he was a son of Ned Stark and being king was the best way to protect the North. But being the king of all Westeros?! As the son of the long-dead but very popular Rhaegar Targaryen...something he just found out three days ago?!

Why would anyone want someone who does not want to be king to be king? It's crazy talk and you're setting yourself up for, at best, soul-crushing disappointment and, at worse, decay and corruption.

To be honest, wanting Jon to be king is just like wanting Arya to be the Lady Baratheon of Storm's End. That ain't it, sis.

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6 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

She isn't going to get Jon. He's going to end up with Tormund and Ghost. 

She'd be fine with that, because he'd be away from Dany who she knows is bad news.

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3 hours ago, Anthony Pirtle said:

I don't think it's out of character at all. Sansa has demonstrated over the last couple of seasons that she is willing to do whatever she believes is necessary to secure her position, her family's position, and the North. She may be Ned Stark's daughter, but she's Littlefinger's student. 

Funny, she did that in season 1 over Lady. 

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3 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Protect him from whom? John gave an oath to Dany and made an agreement. If he had wanted to claim the Throne he was there, he could have said it to Dany himself. Sansa conveniently told Tyrion but had no idea to know if this information could fall to the wrong hands. John was lucky that Vary's wanted to support him he could be plotting his demise. 

She should let John resolve this with Dany. Now John may face the accusation that he lied to Dany while secretly conspiring for her demise. Aka Vary's intentions may fall on John's head. 

Maybe from himself? From Dany? For the dangers that seem to get all the Stark men lately when they go to the South? Any of these or all work. 

Why must people be convinced Sansa is out for herself? Why can't she be doing this with a bigger picture in mind than herself? I think Sansa gets a lot of underseved hate and so is attributed with underhanded motives that aren't stated in show and books

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1 minute ago, north of the wall said:

Maybe from himself? From Dany? For the dangers that seem to get all the Stark men lately when they go to the South? Any of these or all work. 

Why must people be convinced Sansa is out for herself? Why can't she be doing this with a bigger picture in mind than herself? I think Sansa gets a lot of underseved hate and so is attributed with underhanded motives that aren't stated in show and books

She didn't do this to protect John. John is in no danger here. He made an agreement with Dany, he respected her part, she respected his. From there on all she is doing is twisting the one against the other and creates a claim for the throne that John hasn't stated. 

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