Sansa breaking her oath and the Anti-Daenerys conspiracy

[Wik]

3 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

My opinion exactly. In the godswood, near the weirwood tree. This means something to the Starks. It means something to Jon and should so to Sansa.

Sansa breaks not only on oath, she cancels the trust and family. If Jon ever finds out, he will never forgive her. She messed up the family.

And that is what this episode is about: The Last of the Starks.

The Last we see them together. They are not a family anymore.

Jon heads South.

Sansa breaks family.

Arya leaves.

Bran is not a Stark anymore.

 

The Starks ended.

Easily the 2 dumbest side plots.....I love you all so much....I don't want to be around you and I'm leaving......YA OK!

[Aedam Targaryen]

3 minutes ago, Wik said:

I do think it's funny that alot of people hold Ned in such high regard but we all know that in the end, Ned really was his own undoing. His own chivalrous stupidity of giving Cersei a warning, not working with Renly when they had the chance and covering up his nephews parentage all lead to bad things. 

Jon is basically trying to do the same STUPID things and Sansa is putting her foot down and saying no.....could there be better timing to it? ABSOLUTELY. But Jon was walking the SAME path as Ned was and Sansa lost several brothers and her parents because of that. Of course she is going to try to make a move she feels puts her family in a better position, regardless of how "dirty" it seems.  

But it’s not really the same. It’s the opposite. Ned made his poor decisions to follow established bloodline laws and uphold his honor. Jon is making his decisions to blur bloodlines and deflect his birthright in favor of someone else, even though he has a better claim. If Ned did what Jon is doing, Renly might be king and Ned might still be alive. 

[Kajjo]

2 minutes ago, Wik said:

Easily the 2 dumbest side plots.

What is dumb about it?

[Wik]

6 minutes ago, Aedam Targaryen said:

But it’s not really the same. It’s the opposite. Ned made his poor decisions to follow established bloodline laws and uphold his honor. Jon is making his decisions to blur bloodlines and deflect his birthright in favor of someone else, even though he has a better claim. If Ned did what Jon is doing, Renly might be king and Ned might still be alive. 

Does anyone think RENLY was going to seize the throne in that moment? I dont and never did....ESPECIALLY (assuming) Ned alive and there with him....NOT A CHANCE.

Still, my point is the holier than thou mentality that has gotten them in trouble. Jon is trying to hide his and "go with the flow" but as Varys said, he is not able to control Dany. Even if he passed his inheritance to her, she would bend him to her whims. We have already seen that. All in the name of honor. Honor isn't always goodness. 

But yes, to your, point there were different reasons, no one would dispute it. But the end result is the same. Stupidity on HOW you go about it and your honor getting you NO WHERE, except possibly dead. 

It's is EXACTLY like Ned going to Cersei and warning her vs Jon tell Sansa about his parentage. You are going to someone with VERY secret information and expecting them to roll over with it and act like you didn't tell them. It's stupidity, shrouded in "honor". 

[BlackLightning]

There's also the small problem that Jon is actually unfit to be king.

Seriously. As someone else has said earlier in maybe another thread, this is a MAJOR political weakness. One of many.

Can you imagine President Obama telling the Iranian president about his plans to kill Osama bin Laden after his spies and intelligence officers had secretly unearthed his whereabouts?

The fact that Sansa, Varys and Tyrion can't (or won't) acknowledge this is a problem and yet another major political weakness for Jon.

Do you see Daenerys telling the whole world that fire, heat and smoke can't kill her? No, you don't see that. Why?

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

11 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Oh get a grip. Dany is not the one who made this dangerous.

Get a grip yourself, you just listed a trail of dead characters that proves nothing about what we just saw in this Episode. Dany is the only one in this story right now who is a threat and who is threatened by R+L=J. She is the PRESENT threat to Jon and his family.

She dumps all this on Jon and makes his parentage reveal about her. ME ME ME. That's all that is shown. No concern for how its affecting him. How charming.

[Hodor's Dragon]

40 minutes ago, north of the wall said:

Maybe from himself? From Dany? For the dangers that seem to get all the Stark men lately when they go to the South? Any of these or all work. 

Why must people be convinced Sansa is out for herself? Why can't she be doing this with a bigger picture in mind than herself? I think Sansa gets a lot of underseved hate and so is attributed with underhanded motives that aren't stated in show and books

Sansa has been on Daenerys' case for little to no apparent reason as soon as Dany shows up. I mean here Daenerys is bringing all her force, betting her army and the lives of herself, her dragons and her closest advisors just to play Protector of the Realm over a castle and region that scarcely constitute one of the larger components of the Iron Throne's power. Even picked up a sword herself. Yet Sansa could scarcely even bring herself to be polite.

Is this all about "Northern independence?" I don't actually recall Sansa putting a lot of thought, heart or energy into "Northern independence" prior to this.

Damn right I have questions about her motives.

[Wik]

6 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

What is dumb about it?

The NK is dead, Bran is passing on Winterfell, and he is going to do what exactly? Go hump some trees and warg into some ravens. Cool story arc bro.

Arya is going to KL to kill the Lannisters. Once they are dead she goes to..............................................................................................................??? Cool story arc bro. 

[King Jon Snow Stark]

1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Get a grip yourself, you just listed a trail of dead characters that proves nothing about what we just saw in this Episode. Dany is the only one in this story right now who is a threat and who is threatened by R+L=J. She is the PRESENT threat to Jon and his family.

She dumps all this on Jon and makes his parentage reveal about her. ME ME ME. That's all that is shown. No concern for how its affecting him. How charming.

She is his family too. She only care about getting some right now instead of making him comfortable with their family traditions. Patience Dany Patience. 

[Green Knight]

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

Well, she is actually the student of many characters. Not just Littlefinger. And Ned was one of her teachers. She learned a lot from Ned, but she also saw just how easily he got himself killed by being politically naïve. Same with Robb. However much people may dislike her moves this season, they are very much rooted in trying to AVOID the fate of her father and brother.

Ned got himself killed through dumb honesty and believing everyone would do the right thing with information and power.

Robb got himself killed because he acted out of love for a woman not strategic necessity, and he put too much faith in his bannermen.

If Sansa accepts Dany's rule when the entire North does not, she will lose the North as will Jon. Robb's fate all over again. I know it angers lots of fans that she is being cold to Dany, but that is not out of selfishness so much as out of reasonable and reasoned distrust.

As for telling Tyrion, it was a bit strange, but again, her distrust of Dany is real and reasonable. She knows that Tyrion knows Dany better than she does. Basically she is letting Tyrion be the judge of whether or not it is information that should get out because he knows and believes in Dany and Sansa does not.

Great post. I don’t get how people don’t see this? 

[Kajjo]

1 minute ago, Wik said:

The NK is dead, Bran is passing on Winterfell, and he is going to do what exactly? Go hump some trees and warg into some ravens. Cool story arc bro.

The whole Bran arc is difficult to understand. The three-eyed raven stuff is not fully explained yet and I am afraid it won't in the show. But the fundamental story is not dumb, just weird. Mayby GRRM will explain it more thoroughly in the books. By the way, I don't expect him to hump trees but he might well warg into ravens on a regular basis.

3 minutes ago, Wik said:

Arya is going to KL to kill the Lannisters. Once they are dead she goes to

We will see. How can you rate an arc we don't know, yet? Till now I like her arc best of most of the characters. She is a wonderful character in the series and the books alike.

[anjulibai]

I posted this on the "Why are they plotting a coup" thread, but I think it's applicable here:

Quote

 

I think Sansa is gunning for either Jon to be, or her to be queen. That's why she's doing what shes's doing. 

If she wants the throne herself, she's got quite a bit of backing. She's got the North, the Vale and the Riverlands in her pocket. Watch, she's going to try to marry Gendry (he'd be miserable with her, so I hope not), which gives her the Stormlands. The Reach and the Westerlands are leaderless now, so probably easy to get their minor lords behind her. All that's left is Dorne, which might be easy to negotiate a treaty with them.

 

 

[north of the wall]

That's fine then question her motives. Her chapters are enough proof to me to know her love for her family, and for the North.

 

I don't think D&D are doing great job at showing anyone's motivations, I am basing what I see on screen with what I know from books. Jon is a good leader without a head for politics, (something a small council would help with) Arya is a bad ass assassin who is Arya Stark and not No one. Bran is the 3 ER and not just Bran anymore and Sansa is someone who has learnt to play the game but consistently thinks of her family and home

[Wik]

6 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

She is his family too. She only care about getting some right now instead of making him comfortable with their family traditions. Patience Dany Patience. 

I mean, it's pretty obvious that patience is something she clearly lacks and is increasingly losing. This is obviously the proverbial toilet bowl that their relationship gets flushed down.....along with her chance at the IT. She has proven that in her early years she could "suppress" her Targ blood...now she is going full nut job. 

[LadyBlackwater]

5 hours ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

Tyrion already knows. Bran told him a long time ago. Sansa will probably be accused of telling. Bran didn't take the oath.

I feel like if he had found this out he would have said something already, because he's looked troubled ever since the Tarly's were burned. 

[Wik]

7 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

The whole Bran arc is difficult to understand. The three-eyed raven stuff is not fully explained yet and I am afraid it won't in the show. But the fundamental story is not dumb, just weird. Mayby GRRM will explain it more thoroughly in the books. By the way, I don't expect him to hump trees but he might well warg into ravens on a regular basis.

We will see. How can you rate an arc we don't know, yet? Till now I like her arc best of most of the characters. She is a wonderful character in the series and the books alike.

Ya, to be honest, I completely separate the expectations of the books and the series. So, I am with you on the idea that the books will be more clear and provide us with additional, IMPORTANT information that may flesh this out. 

And yes, I am "pre-judging" these 2 arcs but it seems like they are going to just branch off into nothingness and basically fall off the world of Westeros into some self appointed "exile" thing. It's weird and I feel so massively anti-climatic to both characters. 

[Nightwish]

18 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Get a grip yourself, you just listed a trail of dead characters that proves nothing about what we just saw in this Episode. Dany is the only one in this story right now who is a threat and who is threatened by R+L=J. She is the PRESENT threat to Jon and his family.

She dumps all this on Jon and makes his parentage reveal about her. ME ME ME. That's all that is shown. No concern for how its affecting him. How charming.

She saved John during the battle. It’s not doubt that she loves him but she has invested a lot in claiming the throne. John doesn’t want the throne. He bend the knee to her when she came to rescue him beyond the wall as a recognition to her. He had the chance also to oppose her after he learned the truth and claim the throne. He didn’t he called her My Queen instead. What is the threat that you see that John doesn’t see? 

Sansa just wants to throw dispute all over the place. She doesn’t like the fact that John is attracted to Dany and only plays Game of Thrones gambling with John’s future so he can get the throne. But he has feelings for Dany and Sansa doesn’t care for a peaceful resolution in their relationship as Targs because it doesn’t suit her. 

She plays her own game here trying to influence Tyrion and that’s the continuation of their discussion from down the Crypts. The moment that Dany was saving John but Sansa was calling her a problem.

[lakin1013]

1 hour ago, Nerevanin said:

I honestly don't see a problem with Sansa not defending Winterfell with a sword in hand. Why would she? She isn't a warrior, she is a noble lady. Not everyone can be a warrior. If she fought (on the walls or in the crypts), she would be probably killed in a second and that wouldn't help anyone. Imo it would be very out of her character if she suddenly became a warrior princess. If we question why Sansa didn't fight, I suppose that we can also question why Varys didn't fight, why Tyrion didn't fight, why Gilly didn't fight or why Missandei didn't fight.

 

 

Actually, I would ask those questions.  Queen Dany picked up a sword.  Noble-born Arya picked up several swords.  Brienne of Tarth picked up a sword.  Lady Mormont picked up a sword.  If Lady Sansa Stark wants to be a full throated proponent for the independence of the North, it would help if she had prepared for the battle.  She came across as cowardly to me, while other women were making a stand for the north. 

Gilly is in the crypts because she is pregnant.  Missendei is from peaceful Nath.  I make no statements about the males in the crypt as I was talking about females.

While it is possible I am applying current sensibilities, we also in the next ep see Sansa breaking an oath, and setting up intrigue to get what she wants.  Not only is she cowardly, but she is also a liar to Jon, and a manipulator to Tyrion.  

[LadyBlackwater]

1 hour ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

I really hate how D&D are treating Sansa.  She was really great in episode 2, which was written by Cogman, but D&D just hate her.  F*** them.

I feel like the moment Littlefinger died and she kept the necklace he gave her, she became the new Littlefinger. Its disappointing to say the least. Sansa is better than this. Everything she overcame, lived through, and learned. Its sad. I am looking forward to the continuation of book Sansa. Alayne. 

[BlackLightning]

Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

Get a grip yourself, you just listed a trail of dead characters that proves nothing about what we just saw in this Episode. Dany is the only one in this story right now who is a threat and who is threatened by R+L=J. She is the PRESENT threat to Jon and his family.

She dumps all this on Jon and makes his parentage reveal about her. ME ME ME. That's all that is shown. No concern for how its affecting him. How charming.

She does have concern about how it's affecting him. She asked him.

But his parentage reveal is, actually, very much about her. She has a right to be in her feelings. Out of everyone this information impacts, Jon and Dany are the ones who are hit the hardest with Dany being a close second to Jon. 

Dany was right all along. It's not even about her claim anymore, her life and livelihood (and those of her followers) are in danger. R+L=J puts her in a difficult situation but it's been made worst by people like Sansa, Varys and Tyrion.

And these dead characters you speak of are only recently dead...a few of them are still alive. If anyone had found out this information during the Greyjoy Rebellion or the War of the Five Kings, it would have been a big problem.

• Do you really think Tywin would have just sat on this information and did nothing?
• Stannis is willing to sacrifice his own family members and friends to a god he never really believed in for a woman he only wants to use...what is Jon to him?
• Robert, judging from the way he handled and viewed the situations with the Night's Watch deserter, Daenerys' pregnancy and the direwolf Lady, would have called for Jon's immediate execution.
• Roose Bolton had been waiting to turn on the Starks for years.
• Littlefinger is cutthroat so I'm sure he would've tried to send Jon some congratulatory flowers and a box of chocolates. Ask Bran.

These all were present threats to Jon and his family. Daenerys does not want to hurt Jon. In fact, she has saved and supported him repeatedly...even after finding out the truth. Daenerys does not want to hurt his family. If she wanted to hurt them, she could have easily done it already.

Jon being a part of the Night's Watch wouldn't have saved him (Alliser Thorne was a big Targaryen supporter who was sentenced to a lifetime of service on the Wall, Maester Aemon is a known Targaryen who was miraculously spared). The Starks of Winterfell -- and, by extension, all of the North -- would have been in the line of fire.

Again those dead people were not always dead.