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Kajjo

Sansa breaking her oath and the Anti-Daenerys conspiracy

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I have one question regarding Tyrion knowledge - hadn't he already known before who Jon is? During the feast the said to Bran that he is "only son of Bed Stark", so it sounded like he knew about rlj. Maybe he only told Varys because Sansa started plotting on her own?

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6 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

This is what being the new Littlefinger means. Lying to everyone including your own family is par for the course

 

My favorite Sansa moment was when Sansa begged Jon to take back Winterfell and rescue Rickon. Once they arrive at Winterfell, Sansa tells Jon to give up on Rickon. 

Jon should have learned that he couldn't trust Sansa then.

 

Yup. If he didn't try to save Rickon he would be viewed as an ass. He tries to save Rickon people say he lost his head. My favorite Jon moment is him trying to save Rickon. 

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5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Right now, she hasn't put anyone on the throne yet. She's trying to illustrate Dany as a poorer choice in comparison to Jon, and build social capital for him at the same time. She is trying to save Jon from dying in the South in an unnecessary war. He is chained to Dany now through obligation and fear, and he revealed his true motives in this episode. He told his true-love Tormund, "I wish I was going with you" as he is going south, out of duty. Whatever Sansa is doing, she's doing it to entangle himself from Dany and protect him. She sent Arya. She's Cat begging Ned not to go, and trying to protect him at the same time. She's just going to learn from Cat's mistakes because that's what all the Starks will be doing the final act.

But I find it very hard to believe that Sansa doesn't see the many different ways that this can backfire

Jon made a promise to Dany that he intends to keep. He also loves and cares for her and wants to see her happy and healthy. Dany (and a bunch of other people) can never be happy or healthy for as long as Cersei sits the Iron Throne

 

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35 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Jon is easily manipulated. Having Jon in any position of power is better for her long-term, regardless of her goal. 

I disagree.

If the North remains independent, Jon would rule from Winterfell. Once he marries some Northern lady, Sansa would just become the king's brother. She wouldn't have any power on her own, and all she would only remain the second in-line in the North until Jon had a child.

If Sansa was looking after her own interests, she'd be trying to convince Jon to marry Dany, go South, and leave the North to her and her children.

 

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Varys turning against Daenerys within 5 minutes of hearing about Jon/Aegon, and starting to plan having her assassinated before Cersei is dealt with makes ABSOLUTELY - NO - SENSE - WHAT - SO - EVER. At least wait until after Cersei is dealt with...

But then neither does him and Tyrion sitting in the throne room, talking loudly about betraying Daenerys so...
So much for Master of Whisperers.

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2 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Sorry but wasn't Tyrion addressing this question to her: She got the North, what the hell she wants and can't be happy about it? 

She said men in my family do not do well in the south. Sansa does care about Jon. He is a member of her family and she can want to rule and not want him to die. 

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2 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I disagree.

If the North remains independent, Jon would rule from Winterfell. Once he marries some Northern lady, Sansa would just become the king's brother. She wouldn't have any power on her own, and all she would only remain the second in-line in the North until Jon had a child.

If Sansa was looking after her own interests, she'd be trying to convince Jon to marry Dany, go South, and leave the North to her and her children.

 

She has Winterfell. Jon is not lord of Winterfell and wasn't when he was king. His children would inherit the kingdom and hers Winterfell. The president lives in DC but the Mayor runs DC. Warden/king and lord of winterfell are now separated because of Jon and Sansa. That was the situation. 

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1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

I don't unterstand why she does not intend to return to Winterfell, though. 

I understood that differently... its not that she doesn't want nor intend to come back if the option is possible, but more that her only plans are to go and finish her list, or die trying. Killing Cersei and the Mountain are more important to her than making plans to come back to Winterfell, like its something of a suicide mission that she's accepted.

Hound: "I don't plan on coming back"
Arya: "Neither do I"

 

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2 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

She said men in my family do not do well in the south. Sansa does care about Jon. He is a member of her family and she can want to rule and not want him to die. 

So she shares her brothers secret with Tyrion who says to Varys who could have been totally against John?  Sansa does not convince me. She wants to break John's and Dany relationship, actually exposing him to Dany as a traitor (because that's were this will built into). 

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5 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

But I find it very hard to believe that Sansa doesn't see the many different ways that this can backfire

Jon made a promise to Dany that he intends to keep. He also loves and cares for her and wants to see her happy and healthy. Dany (and a bunch of other people) can never be happy or healthy for as long as Cersei sits the Iron Throne

We just fundamentally see differences here in Jon's motives. I dont think he loves her at all. Mainly because, he hasn't said it! E4 was the perfect opportunity, and he didn't. He just Jorah'ed her and said my queen this, my queen that. His facial expressions and body language were all uneasy and uncomfortable around her.

Sansa would be happy to have Dany and Cersei kill each other (they probably will). She just doesn't want Jon as collateral. 

 

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Sansa's actions this episode doesn't make much sense to me. 
If her plan is to keep Jon safe, she sure has a strange way of showing it. 

Keeping his identity silent, has no impact on his safety what so ever. 
Spreading who he is however, will only endanger him further.

 

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No, it really won't. Jon gains popular support when the secret is out. Varys can get the smallfolk and other Lords to rally around him. Its giving him a base of power he can draw from. They can help him when he's in danger. Like the townsfolk helped Robert at Battle of the Bells.

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1 minute ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

She has Winterfell. Jon is not lord of Winterfell and wasn't when he was king. His children would inherit the kingdom and hers Winterfell. The president lives in DC but the Mayor runs DC. Warden/king and lord of winterfell are now separated because of Jon and Sansa. That was the situation. 

One would expect that the King in the North would take for himself the greatest castle in the North, strategically located in the center of the kingdom and with the benefit of being the historical seat for the Northern kings.

I'm not sure what kind of arrangement you are suggesting with the DC comparison. Jon living in Winterfell but allowing Sansa an her descendants to act as his stewards? That's possible, but it would leave her at the same level as the Vayon Poole at the beginning of GoT. At the end of the day, Jon ruling in the north would be that Sansa would no longer rule over the Manderlys, Mormonts, Dustins, etc.

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9 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Only reason she gets to be Lady is because Bran wants nothing to do with it. He should be Lord of Winterfell and Lord Stark. Jon passed over the opportunity and let her take the big room. Sansa has been Lady of Winterfell since the end of Battle of the Bastards. Jon was made king and then warden Sansa's position has not changed. Sansa wants to be heard by her brother and she does not want outside interference. I dont think she had problem with King Jon. 

Sansa knows that Bran is out of the line of succession by his own choice. Jon was essentially elected KitN and would otherwise have no claim whatsoever unless he was legitimized.

She doesn’t have a problem at all with King Jon, and would actually prefer it. She does have a problem with Jon rejecting his title of KitN, because Dany has no intention of letting the North maintain independence, and Sansa doesn’t want to lose the safety of Winterfell.

She does not want to leave home. She does not want to be married off as a political pawn. 

Jon has given up KitN and Dany will not allow the North it’s independence, so the best course Sansa has here is to push for Jon to sit the Iron Throne. 

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29 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

She wants to be certain she’ll be left alone, in peace up in the North. She doesn’t want the Iron Throne. 

She wants to live quietly in Winterfell, either as Lady or as Queen in the North. 

Jon threatens both of those claims, so it’s in her best interest to see him installed on the IT where she can maintain her own position and also quietly manipulate him if need be. 

Ya, I just don't see it.

She was never CLOSE to Jon but a traumatic past few years would bring any family together. She now is trying to get Jon on the throne because she doesn't trust or like Dany. You guys make it sound Machiavellian and all persons pulling in a separate direction, instead of  in the same direction and trying to have a better ruler than the 1 they have now.

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18 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Varys turning against Daenerys within 5 minutes of hearing about Jon/Aegon, and starting to plan having her assassinated before Cersei is dealt with makes ABSOLUTELY - NO - SENSE - WHAT - SO - EVER. At least wait until after Cersei is dealt with...

But then neither does him and Tyrion sitting in the throne room, talking loudly about betraying Daenerys so...
So much for Master of Whisperers.

:lmao: 

 

I don't disagree with that...VArys is always cunning....he usually waits to work his angle in the darkness when no one is looking. Working against or behind the current ruler, not actively causing civil strife. 

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Poor Jon. He’s going through a crisis and he’s terrified for his family if he rejects Dany and stays in the North. And he's especially worried about Sansa continuously challenging Dany, not because he's ALL IN for Dany's war (receipts: look at his statements in S7 about it), but because he's afraid of what Dany will do to Sansa. Tyrion is afraid of Dany, Tyrion is worried about Sansa pushing it. If Tyrion is worried, Jon would be worried too - it makes no sense to have Jon not be. While I can see watsonian reasons for Sansa's actions, it's still very contrived because their motives are the same (Jon wants to be with his "wolves"). It could be solved with a simple conversation between Sansa and Jon, but the writers are avoiding the obvious for the sake of a twist. It's just like Winterhell last season. 

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26 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Sorry but wasn't Tyrion addressing this question to her: She got the North, what the hell she wants and can't be happy about it? 

You can't see, how from her vantage point, she doesn't HAVE the North? 

You can't see how she might think that after defeating Cersei, 2 Targ drags could fly back to WF and demand WHATEVER they wanted, with very little recourse from the North? 

She is trying to secure a future from tyrants. She has perceived Dany as one and KNOWS Cersei is one. She is now acting on it, as an adult who cares for her people, not some honor bound Lady of WF who must hide the truth for some "greater good". Again, she saw a majority of her family ripped apart for that dumb shit....of course she is trying to prevent it from happening further. 

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1 minute ago, Wik said:

Ya, I just don't see it.

She was never CLOSE to Jon but a traumatic past few years would bring any family together. She now is trying to get Jon on the throne because she doesn't trust or like Dany. You guys make it sound Machiavellian and all persons pulling in a separate direction, instead of  in the same direction and trying to have a better ruler than the 1 they have now.

Sansa doesn’t like or trust Dany, because Dany is more of the same from her perspective. 

When I say Sansa may manipulate Jon, or is using him to her own ends, I’m not trying to imply she’s doing it because she doesn’t like or love Jon.

She’s simply spotted a legitimate angle (JonTarg) that results in a good chance of a better outcome for her and the North, vs. Daenerys on the IT.

it also probably would benefit Westeros as a whole, but I don’t think that’s her primary concern at the moment. 

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Dany orders Jon not to share his true parentage which basically makes it an oath. He has to obey his Queen. He sneakily finds a way around that oath by having Bran explain it instead of himself. But he still broke his oath, yet people have no problem with that it seems. Looks like the men on this show can keep breaking their oaths left and right (like Sam breaking every NW vow there is) but women are evil when they do it.

And Sansa only told one person. A person that still believes in Dany might I add. But should things go wrong, Tyrion has an alternative at hand. And frankly, Tyrion decided to tell Varys, not Sansa. So if Varys becomes a threat to Dany, that's on Tyrion.

I also don't see anything wrong with Sansa breaking a promise. It's not a freaking oath, it's a promise. Jon made them swear to secrecy before he even told them what the secret was. That's shady as hell but no one seems to have an issue with that either. Double standards for men and women reign supreme I see.

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