Sansa breaking her oath and the Anti-Daenerys conspiracy

[Kajjo]

27 minutes ago, north of the wall said:

Sansa is only protecting her family the way she believes best.

I am not sure anymore. I believe this is supposed to show us she starts playing the Game of Thrones herself. She acted dishonorable and illoyal to Jon and her family.

Does she protect Jon with breaking the oath? How so? I don't see it.

Like Daenerys waited for the Great War to be over, Sansa could have waited how the Last War develops. There was no need to break her oath and tell Tyrion the 18-year old family secret her father so valiantly kept.

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

Tyrion said exactly what every person who fails to understand Sansa's character says: hey, Sansa, you should be happy, you have Winterfell all to yourself! Isn't that great! 

And yet she's not happy. "You're determined to dislike her." Here is why: She wants Jon to be king. She says, but what if there is someone else (Jon).

Varys, Sam both agree with Sansa.

Sansa's spidey senses are tingling and when she's right... she's right.

[Figdoni]

8 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Protect him from whom? John gave an oath to Dany and made an agreement. If he had wanted to claim the Throne he was there, he could have said it to Dany himself. Sansa conveniently told Tyrion but had no idea to know if this information could fall to the wrong hands. John was lucky that Vary's wanted to support him he could be plotting his demise. 

She should let John resolve this with Dany. Now John may face the accusation that he lied to Dany while secretly conspiring for her demise. Aka Vary's intentions may fall on John's head. 

Jon resolve this with Dany? She doesn’t believe he will because “men do stupid things for love”; and Jon had just demonstrated this fact by committing a badly injured Northern Army to march right away which gives those men a significantly lessened chance of surviving a battle... just coz he’s blindly supporting Dany and what she wants.

 You’re right, Varys could have potentially turned anti-Jon, but she trusts Tyrion. He is a good man in her words, she knows he is smart and can think objectively. There is risk but it is a measured risk, as she clearly feels it’s necessary for someone going South to have the full insight into the truth

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

I am not sure anymore. I believe this is supposed to show us she starts playing the Game of Thrones herself. She acted dishonorable and illoyal to Jon and her family.

Does she protect Jon with breaking the oath? How so? I don't see it.

Like Daenerys waited for the Great War to be over, Sansa could have waited how the Last War develops. There was no need to break her oath and tell Tyrion the 18-year old family secret her father so valiantly kept.

 

She wants to engineer a conflict between Jon and Daenerys, presumably hoping that the latter will be destroyed.

[Kajjo]

Just now, SeanF said:

She wants to engineer a conflict between Jon and Daenerys, presumably hoping that the latter will be destroyed.

Yes, that might be one point, but mostly she tries to get Tyrion, the hand of Daenerys, to work against her, to see another option. To see Jon as possible ruler, not Daenerys.

[Wik]

5 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Do you feel it to be in-character for Sansa to break her formal oath by telling Tyrion about Jon's true parentage? The Starks as a dynasty appear to have kept a lot of secrets in Winterfell since generation. Jon is not the thought-to-be half-brother to Sansa, but her cousin.

She willfully and deliberately breaks her oath to further her own position of power. She starts a conspiracy against Daenerys and she really intends to do so. And Tyrion tells Varys, despite not wanting to be part of the conspiracy.

I understood that Varys turned against Daenerys and for the better of the realm would now prefer to support Jon Snow. Obviously, Jon Snow would be the better king and Varys keeps very straight-foward by selecting the bets candidate. Varys knows no loyalty. Tyrion is still supporting Daenerys, but unsure about it. Do you agree with this assessment?

I'm not surprised, at all. Kind of expected it. I figured somehow the knowledge of his birth-right would get out. I had generally always thought it would be some combo of Bran and Sam though. 

It is also pretty funny to me how many people said "oh Jon's claim doesn't matter, no one will believe him anyhow". Hmmm guess......I told ya so? hahah

Still, I think you got the general grasp here and I am not at all surprised, as the events unfolded, with Sansa doing what she did. She doesn't like Dany and doesn't think she will be a good queen (which she wouldn't). At this point, I think Sansa has been doing alot of subterfuge, intended or not, but it isn't like this was so super long term, well thought out plan by her. It was information that shook her and her family to the core and any devious thoughts aside, serve the greater progression of line of kings in a very real and legal way.   

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

I am not sure anymore. I believe this is supposed to show us she starts playing the Game of Thrones herself. She acted dishonorable and illoyal to Jon and her family.

Does she protect Jon with breaking the oath? How so? I don't see it.

Like Daenerys waited for the Great War to be over, Sansa could have waited how the Last War develops. There was no need to break her oath and tell Tyrion the 18-year old family secret her father so valiantly kept.

 

Jon wanted to tell them anyway. He wanted to make it known. He only has to hide it FROM DANY because she is cray cray though. If anything, Dany will punish Sansa now--and Jon will be more concerned about his family getting hurt than Sansa's "betrayal." Dany being another loose canon from the inbred side of the Targaryen family tree is what this is revolving around. He wanted them to swear it because it puts them in danger, knowing it. Dany has been throwing shady threats at Sansa since E1.

[Nightwish]

2 minutes ago, Figdoni said:

Jon resolve this with Dany? She doesn’t believe he will because “men do stupid things for love”; and Jon had just demonstrated this fact by committing a badly injured Northern Army to march right away which gives those men a significantly lessened chance of surviving a battle... just coz he’s blindly supporting Dany and what she wants.

 You’re right, Varys could have potentially turned anti-Jon, but she trusts Tyrion. He is a good man in her words, she knows he is smart and can think objectively. There is risk but it is a measured risk, as she clearly feels it’s necessary for someone going South to have the full insight into the truth

If he doesn't want to be King, Sansa can't force him to be King. Either way stupid, in love or whatever what he choses to do it is his decision, his path. She only puts him in a battle he doesn't want to fight and since Varys took the bait to support him (to John's good fortune), her action opened a front. 

 

[Figdoni]

Jon asking Sansa and Arya to keep the truth a secret is pretty equivalent to Dany asking Jon to keep the truth a secret... he should probably know better in that moment, given his words in kings landing about there only being better and better lies When he refused to hide the fact that he’d already bent his knee to Dany 

[Rose of Red Lake]

Sansa wants to liberate Jon HOW IS THAT BAD. This entire thread is ridiculous.

[El Guapo]

Liberate Jon. lol

[tallTale]

1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sansa wants to liberate Jon HOW IS THAT BAD. This entire thread is ridiculous.

That should be Jon's decision.

[north of the wall]

1 minute ago, tallTale said:

That should be Jon's decision.

False. If my brother were making what I considered a catastrophic decision being made with his dick over his brain I'd step in. If I believed his life, my families life and everyone close to us lives were in danger I'd step in. It's what you do for people you love. Whether you agree she is saving him or not is a different arguement than what her intentions are.

I'll trust D&D with what I saw. I saw and heard someone wanting to protect her brothers, sister, people. We didn't see a sign she was being devious.  D&D want everything to either straightforward or a twist at this point. I can only assume Sansa has told for the reasons stated on screen.

[BlackLightning]

35 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

DANY is the one who made this dangerous. DANY is the one who made Jon even have to keep it a secret. Now Dany's biggest issue is he is more popular and could be chosen as ruler over her (how Viserys of her). She commands him. Which means Jon needs to lie to his family. She says it in her cool threatening voice too. And then she leaves and we get a long shot of Jon just standing there, thinking over what just happened. And then the next day (or so I assume) he tells Sansa and Arya the truth. JON DEFIED DANY'S ORDERS. This is the real story here, not this Sansa oathbreaking b.s.

Oh get a grip. Dany is not the one who made this dangerous.

The very fact that Jon Snow is actually Aegon, the trueborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, has ALWAYS been dangerous.

Why else would Ned Stark keep it a secret for 17 years?

He saw what happened to the Mad King, to Elia, to her children Aegon and Rhaenys? They didn't die on a battlefield or from a protracted siege as a natural consequence of war. They were killed like Robb Stark and his bannermen were....by treachery. And that treachery that belonged to Tywin, Varys, Pycelle and Jaime.

Oh yes, have we forgotten that people like Varys, Tywin, Pycelle, Littlefinger, Jaime, Cersei and Stannis were known entities back then? Yes, I'm sure they would have respected Ned Stark's decision to leave Jon out of it.

And then there's the small matter of Rhaella, Viserys and Daenerys on Dragonstone. They were betrayed in their hour of need (Rhaella taken advantage of) but fortunately the kids got away.

What would the Martells have done? Start a war in Jon's name regardless of the fact that Jon is a baby and Ned doesn't want any more wars. After all, a dragon in Westeros in worth more than two dragons in Essos.

What would the Tyrells have done? Margaery is the same age so I'm sure that they would've tried to put Margaery in Jon's crib. Ah, the joys of child exploitation.

Ned Stark saw all of it and knew it was bad news. He didn't even tell his brother or his wife. The men in the Night's Watch are supposed to be neutral but the reality is that they are not. The fact that wildlings know what is happening on the other side of the Wall (some even know it intimately) suggests that the Night's Watch is not only doing their job but that they talk too much.

And while Catelyn may have loved Jon had she known the tragic circumstances of his birth. But I imagine she would have been mortified. How can she rest easy when a ticking time bomb of a baby is in her home, eating her food and cavorting with her children. She knew what had happened to the Targaryen children too. There's no reason not to think that her Stark children wouldn't been in danger. And we all know that Catelyn is not the most emotionally stable person.

And we all know what Lysa would have done if she caught wind of it. And Edmure is a bit of an idiot who can't seem to follow simple instructions or make rational decisions (i.e. decisions not rooted in raw emotion) regarding the smallfolk.

 

[LucyMormont]

5 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Do you feel it to be in-character for Sansa to break her formal oath by telling Tyrion about Jon's true parentage? The Starks as a dynasty appear to have kept a lot of secrets in Winterfell since generation. Jon is not the thought-to-be half-brother to Sansa, but her cousin.

She willfully and deliberately breaks her oath to further her own position of power. She starts a conspiracy against Daenerys and she really intends to do so. And Tyrion tells Varys, despite not wanting to be part of the conspiracy.

I understood that Varys turned against Daenerys and for the better of the realm would now prefer to support Jon Snow. Obviously, Jon Snow would be the better king and Varys keeps very straight-foward by selecting the bets candidate. Varys knows no loyalty. Tyrion is still supporting Daenerys, but unsure about it. Do you agree with this assessment?

 Bran said "it's your choice" to Jon, and it's exactly that, ONLY Jon's choice. As I see it, the worst thing is that Sansa broke Jon's trust. It wasn't an oath inconsequential and to a nobody, it was to him, and one that can potentially throw the 7 Kingdoms in another civil war.  It's not her secret to tell, it's not her choice to make, it's not her right to push him to a path he does not want, and even less, to scheme for that. The only one who has the right to decide how this has to be handled, is Jon. He told his family, because he trusts them, and this has  only proved that Sansa can't be trusted, she is dishonorable, and a liar. Her word isn't worth a fig.

Sansa has no reason to dislike Dany, not objectively. May be WE as viewers have, but not Sansa. It's true that coming with all her military power to the North to face the Dead was her duty, but she did it (unlike the other self-declared queen, who is a proven psychopath piece of s**t who would have left all her "subjects"  die),  she took great losses, and Sansa didn't even said "thank you" once. 
So, Sansa's attitude with Dany has no logical reason. Unless the three Starks had a previous reunion and Sansa's distrust has to do with something that Bran knows and told them, and/or Arya knows because of her faceless man ability to see through people's facade and get to a person's heart,  that others could miss. But if that were the case, they should have shown us the siblings talking about this, and talking to Jon about WHY they distrust Danaerys. 
Sansa acting behind his back is pure crap.

[Rose of Red Lake]

10 minutes ago, tallTale said:

That should be Jon's decision.

Tough shit. Sam has to intervene in the NW election, even if Jon didn't want it.

What he really wants: to be in the North. He's trying not to get Dany to blow her top, but does he actually want to go south with her? Uh no. Ironically they're both running scams on Dany just in different ways. Jon would appreciate not being chained to Dany, living in the North, being with his family. Sansa, Sam, and Varys would love to have Jon on the throne. And Jon would probably compromise. Sansa wants Jon home.

[Wik]

I do think it's funny that alot of people hold Ned in such high regard but we all know that in the end, Ned really was his own undoing. His own chivalrous stupidity of giving Cersei a warning, not working with Renly when they had the chance and covering up his nephews parentage all lead to bad things. 

Jon is basically trying to do the same STUPID things and Sansa is putting her foot down and saying no.....could there be better timing to it? ABSOLUTELY. But Jon was walking the SAME path as Ned was and Sansa lost several brothers and her parents because of that. Of course she is going to try to make a move she feels puts her family in a better position, regardless of how "dirty" it seems.  

[tallTale]

9 minutes ago, north of the wall said:

False. If my brother were making what I considered a catastrophic decision being made with his dick over his brain I'd step in. If I believed his life, my families life and everyone close to us lives were in danger I'd step in. It's what you do for people you love. Whether you agree she is saving him or not is a different arguement than what her intentions are.

I'll trust D&D with what I saw. I saw and heard someone wanting to protect her brothers, sister, people. We didn't see a sign she was being devious.  D&D want everything to either straightforward or a twist at this point. I can only assume Sansa has told for the reasons stated on screen.

You make it sound like Jon won't be in danger now.

Jon is in just as much danger, possibly more because he's already fighting a dangerous apponent in Cersei, but without a full unified front to help.

Plus it sets up another violent conflict after the Cersei-siege.

And I'm not convinced that's Sansa's only motives. She's rebuked Jon before by not telling him about the Vale army, solely to ensure her survival.

[Kajjo]

1 minute ago, LucyMormont said:

the worst thing is that Sansa broke Jon's trust.

My opinion exactly. In the godswood, near the weirwood tree. This means something to the Starks. It means something to Jon and should so to Sansa.

Sansa breaks not only on oath, she cancels the trust and family. If Jon ever finds out, he will never forgive her. She messed up the family.

And that is what this episode is about: The Last of the Starks.

The Last we see them together. They are not a family anymore.

Jon heads South.

Sansa breaks family.

Arya leaves.

Bran is not a Stark anymore.

 

The Starks ended.

[Nightwish]

7 minutes ago, north of the wall said:

False. If my brother were making what I considered a catastrophic decision being made with his dick over his brain I'd step in. If I believed his life, my families life and everyone close to us lives were in danger I'd step in. It's what you do for people you love. Whether you agree she is saving him or not is a different arguement than what her intentions are.

I'll trust D&D with what I saw. I saw and heard someone wanting to protect her brothers, sister, people. We didn't see a sign she was being devious.  D&D want everything to either straightforward or a twist at this point. I can only assume Sansa has told for the reasons stated on screen.

LOL sorry but if she considers him so stupid marching to catastrophe, how is he going to be a better ruler? Will she take the decisions for him then also?