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So... why is Gendry still a bastard while Ramsay was legitimized as a Bolton ? Is anything consistent in this universe ?

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1 minute ago, SirArthur said:

So... why is Gendry still a bastard while Ramsay was legitimized as a Bolton ? Is anything consistent in this universe ?

Roose Ramsay decided to legitimize his bastard son Ramsay. Easy as that,

Robert did never want to legitimize his bastard son Gendry.

Deanerys is queen and legitimized Gendry in S8E4. Why not. She can and she did.

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10 hours ago, TwiceBorn said:

Dudes there were 3 Baratheon branches:
1. King's Landing
2. Dragonstone
3. Storm's End.

Robert was a lord of Storm's End but then he claimed King's Landing. Stannis was his heir presumptive and as such was given Dragonstone (though he did not like it). Storm's End passed to Renly (much to Stannis' dismay).

First thing after Robert died, Stannis terminates Renly and his branch and reclaims Storm's End. Then him and his branch is terminated. So the claim to the Storm's End belongs to the closest kin which apparently is Gendry. However Gendry cannot inherit unless the taint of bastardy is removed from him. And this can be only done by his overlord. Now if he accepts Danny as such (and her ability to remove taint) then his claim to the King's Landing is forfeit in favor of Danny. Essentially he sold the Seven Kingdoms for the Storm's End.

Nice move Danny.

I still don't understand how anyone else than Robert as a father can legitimize Gendry. Did you know Ned Stark had another son ? I just legitimized Fat Walder Frey. He is now a Stark and Ned's son. Duh. The stupidity level is over 9000 at this point. 

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2 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Roose Ramsay decided to legitimize his bastard son Ramsay. Easy as that,

Robert did never want to legitimize his bastard son Gendry.

 Deanerys is queen and legitimized Gendry in S8E4. Why not. She can and she did.

She just gave Storm's End to an unknown guy who never was at Storm's End, because reasons. May be Robert's son, may not be. Who knows right ? I guess the Stormland lords will just love the idea of an unknown guy without power base telling them what to do. 

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2 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I still don't understand how anyone else than Robert as a father can legitimize Gendry.

Kings have power -- and more or less can do what they declare they can do. Of course a King can legitimize a bastard. Why shouldn't he be able to do so? The power of medieval kings is not really limited. 

 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

She just gave Storm's End to an unknown guy who never was at Storm's End

So what? The power of a queen is not limited. Storm's End does not have a lord at the moment. She just gives it to Gendry. She could have given it to anyone else to, like Cersei promised Riverrun to Bronn. Queens can do so. 

And Gendry is even considered to really be Robert Baratheon's son by the people now.

Edited by Kajjo

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18 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I still don't understand how anyone else than Robert as a father can legitimize Gendry. Did you know Ned Stark had another son ? I just legitimized Fat Walder Frey. He is now a Stark and Ned's son. Duh. The stupidity level is over 9000 at this point. 

Royal legitimisation is pretty consistent. A child born to a father out of wedlock can be given the rights of a true born by the king or queen. Robb did this to "Jon"\Aegon. 

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2 minutes ago, ferrelhadley said:

Royal legitimisation is pretty consistent. A child born to a father out of wedlock can be given the rights of a true born by the king or queen.

Yep. No moaning necessary. There are too much haters here.

Enjoy the show!

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17 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Why not?  The war of 5 kings is over, the war against the NK never went south of WF, and the war of two queens has yet to begin. 

Ravens are flying.  Cersei is ostensibly the queen.  Everyone should know who is ruling these regions.


I think the complications of r-mail are often overlooked. Re-establishment would not be that easy. To use a homing bird you need to have already taken it by land or sea from the place you want to send to to the place you want to send from. And you may want to test out a batch of birds at least once, so that you only re-use the ones that make it. You would also need to have communication set-up the other way if you wanted a reply to a question. Mortality/lost birds would be fairly high and they would need constant breeding with each replacement generation requiring new training and with trained handlers. Communication would be tricky and not guaranteed at the best of times.

During the anarchy and fall of various houses over the last few years it easily beliveable that many of the raven programmes were used up and/or wiped out, as well as the death of workers and directors of such programmes. I doubt there were just a handy bunch of spare trained ravens and human breeders/trainers in all these places that escaped the destruction waiting in the wings (!) ready to jump into action again at the drop of a hat. Setting it all back up again would require bootstrapping communication from scratch and multiple long overland journeys by new people working to a plan with the new people at the other end (and that new plan can't itself be arranged by raven!). And that's assuming anyone is left alive at these places who cares.

So, pretty sure there would be vague information about some of the more remote areas for years after this kind of destruction. I mean with some of the houses completely wiped out, these places could easily fall into the hands of local warlords/gangs/opportunists who would likely be enjoying roasted raven for tea if one flew into their courtyard.

 

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1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

I still don't understand how anyone else than Robert as a father can legitimize Gendry. Did you know Ned Stark had another son ? I just legitimized Fat Walder Frey. He is now a Stark and Ned's son. Duh. The stupidity level is over 9000 at this point. 

Remember when Stannis was being hailed as King by his followers, and he offered to legitimize Jon to Jon Stark if he agreed to leave the NW and become Lord of Winterfell?

Stannis wasn't Jon's daddy...

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6 minutes ago, dannyk65 said:

Remember when Stannis was being hailed as King by his followers, and he offered to legitimize Jon to Jon Stark if he agreed to leave the NW and become Lord of Winterfell?

Exactly. A King can do so. No effort.

The powers of a King are set by a King. Power is what others see in you. If others accept you can do it, you can do it. Simply as that.

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1 hour ago, dannyk65 said:

Remember when Stannis was being hailed as King by his followers, and he offered to legitimize Jon to Jon Stark if he agreed to leave the NW and become Lord of Winterfell?

Stannis wasn't Jon's daddy...

To me, the only issue in her decision was whether or not she has the authority. I'm sure that was what drifted across Sansa's mind even though she and everyone else felt Gendry deserved the status and position.

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10 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I still don't understand how anyone else than Robert as a father can legitimize Gendry. Did you know Ned Stark had another son ? I just legitimized Fat Walder Frey. He is now a Stark and Ned's son. Duh. The stupidity level is over 9000 at this point. 

That’s because you are wrong.

A father can acknowledge the child but he has no power to legitimize. Legal power belongs to the king alone.

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10 hours ago, Kajjo said:

The power of medieval kings is not really limited. 

 

Not true. The kings of Seven Kingdoms need to wrestle for power with Faith, their own family members, members of the small council, noble houses, Iron Bank and so on. Even small folk have rights - once bestowed they cannot be easily taken away even by a King.

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On 5/6/2019 at 4:38 PM, Ashbolt said:

So Daenerys legitimised Gendry as Gendry Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End... Does that not also grant him a claim to the Iron Throne as the last living heir of Robert Baratheon? Okay yeah he obviously doesn't want the Iron Throne but neither does Jon yet she is paranoid about Jon but not Gendry. Even worse, the showrunners even make it out like it was a really smart decision with both Tyrion and her saying so.

Yes, legitimizing Gendry was a really dumb idea and inconsistent when you look at Daenery's reaction to Jon's perentage. Legitimizing Gendry will give him and his children a claim to the Iron Throne. It might not be as big as Daenery's claim, but it can easily be used in the future to undermine House Targaryen's claim to it. Westeros experienced several Blackfyre Rebellions of legitimized bastards. Those rebellions could have been successfull if they were supported by a greater number of lords. A legitimized bastard of Robert Baratheon is equally dangerous for a foreign, invading, new queen, who has to consolidate her reign, earn the loyality of other great lords and so on. What would happen if half of Westeros choose to follow the inexperienced (easy to control) legitimized bastard over the dangerous invader with only one dragon?

And what are the benefits for Daenery's? Little to non-existent. Gendry is currently lord of nothing. He commands no army, there are other lords with claims to Storm's End and the Stormlands. Daenery's would have to enforce Gendry's claim for him, if she want him to reign. But can he reign? As an apprentice he knows very little about the responsibility and daily work of a high lord. So that makes him relatively useless for a long time.

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On 5/6/2019 at 11:27 AM, Nerevanin said:

Now that you pointed it out, yes, it's a very risky thing to do. Daenerys once again thinks that everyone sees her as "the queen" and so no one will even try to support Gendry.

Ya, I disagree, it is fairly measured and pretty smart. It secures his loyalty (technically, you legitimize someone and give them land and title you assume they won't turn on you, right away anyhow). 

She knows his GENERAL back ground. Even if he said screw Dany i'm putting a claim to the throne in, what army does he have at the moment? How many people in the Storm lands even know he is their new lord? How many people abroad do? He isn't going to be able to muster an army of any significance at this juncture and so for the time being, I think it is smart. After Robert, the Baratheon's weren't wildly popular. The chance of anyone flocking to his banner to be king is slim. 

I honestly thought Jon would suggest it and push it on Dany and she would take time to be convinced. So, I would say it was unexpected the way the show had it happen, even though I was confident that it would happen. 

The advantage is that she stabilizes the region and theoretically brings it under her alliance. Which also pulls it away from the Lannisters. So it is a smart power move, overall. 

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On 5/6/2019 at 1:13 PM, anjulibai said:

See, I don't like Cat's reasoning there. The same thing could have been said of Bran and Rickon's descendants (if she'd known they were alive and been able to have any). Why bother having more than one son, then?

Sure, I don't really like Cat reasoning either but her overall point is valid, especially when thinking  about  Gendry decensdents and the IT. 

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