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chasing the dragons

Not Buying it! Cersi, Hound, Bronn

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18 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

What we know is that the ballistae can shoot a fair distance, and that Dany's group stood some distance from the castle. Unless we make the dumbest assumption possible (a common assumption in many of these complaints) one would think that they chose to stand at a safe distance. They added context to establish that bow range was much closer to the castle. And it would have been impractical and unsatisfying to shoot the scene with Dany's group standing a half mile from the castle. 

But you think it's "total nonsense" to shoot the scene in a practical and compelling manner, with added context cues specifically addressing bow range. You should work on your suspension of disbelief when it comes to TV shows.

Except ... you could see them all in one shot with enough information to make a fair judgment about their distance apart.

IOW, you don't have to make any "assumption" at all. It's right there in front of your two eyes. They weren't anywhere near the outside of the ballistae's range. I mean, come on, I'm all in favor of suspending disbelief and giving the show the benefit of the doubt, but you could see it. There was no doubt to be suspended, and I'm sorry, but nonsense is not "compelling" to me.

Also, it's a relatively minor point, but in an actual parlay? The armies lined up far away from each other so the leaders can meet each other in the middle, safe from anyone's bowshot. This was not that.

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Posted (edited)

Without a shadow of a doubt they were within easy range of the ballistaes. It’s not debatable. We just watched them snipe a moving dragon out of the sky. Judging by what we’ve learned about Cersei for the past 7 and a half seasons, it should have been a death sentence. 

It was an absurd scene. Another one of St. Tyrion’s brilliant ideas.

Edited by UnViserion

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53 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Except ... you could see them all in one shot with enough information to make a fair judgment about their distance apart.

IOW, you don't have to make any "assumption" at all. It's right there in front of your two eyes. They weren't anywhere near the outside of the ballistae's range. I mean, come on, I'm all in favor of suspending disbelief and giving the show the benefit of the doubt, but you could see it. There was no doubt to be suspended, and I'm sorry, but nonsense is not "compelling" to me.

Also, it's a relatively minor point, but in an actual parlay? The armies lined up far away from each other so the leaders can meet each other in the middle, safe from anyone's bowshot. This was not that.

You are correct. Furthermore, the whole parlay business is built on a previous mountain of nonsense. How, for one thing among many, did Dany's people even get to KL? Euron pretty much controls the sea now, doesn't he? Does the dragon queen have some sort of zombie fleet? How many times can she and her so-called advisers have a fleet destroyed or nearly destroyed by essentially the same dumb "surprise attack"? It's a little difficult to believe that her grace has any ships left at all. Euron certainly controls the bay. He could simply wipe out the Targaryen party before they even reach shore. 

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9 minutes ago, JLower said:

You are correct. Furthermore, the whole parlay business is built on a previous mountain of nonsense. How, for one thing among many, did Dany's people even get to KL? Euron pretty much controls the sea now, doesn't he? Does the dragon queen have some sort of zombie fleet? How many times can she and her so-called advisers have a fleet destroyed or nearly destroyed by essentially the same dumb "surprise attack"? It's a little difficult to believe that her grace has any ships left at all. Euron certainly controls the bay. He could simply wipe out the Targaryen party before they even reach shore. 

Most of Dany’s army is coming south with Jon overland. 

A smaller group of survivors from the ship fleet is what faces Cersei, who elected not to ballista them where they stood because that would be too easy. She’s convinced of her victory and would prefer to wait so she can humiliate and torment the survivors. 

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Cersei knew if she killed danerys everyone would turn on her. Instead she killed missandei as to provoke team Danerys to wnter and kill innocent people making it easier for cersei to gain support of westeros

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1 hour ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Most of Dany’s army is coming south with Jon overland. 

A smaller group of survivors from the ship fleet is what faces Cersei, who elected not to ballista them where they stood because that would be too easy. She’s convinced of her victory and would prefer to wait so she can humiliate and torment the survivors. 

Sorry, but I'm afraid you missed my point. I didn't ask how Dany's army is going to get to KL. I asked how her people got there, i.e. to the parlay. They came by ship, and they could obviously have been easily killed or captured before they reached shore. Also we have the other matter I alluded to. Tyrion the formerly intelligent dwarf knows about the Iron Fleet, and he knows about the surprise attack that destroyed the Lannister fleet a long time ago. Did he take a whole batch of stupid pills before he accompanied Dany's forces back to Westeros? Why do the Targaryen fleets keep getting smashed and burned by essentially the same dumb "surprise attack"? For that matter, why doesn't Dany or any of dim bulbs she employs as advisers ever even mention Euron in their plans? This especially goes for the Jackass formerly know as Spider. Has the man somehow forgotten the meaning of words like "spy" and "scout"? No one on the Targaryen side ever makes a decent effort to learn the disposition and movements of enemy forces. 

Cersei certainly enjoys humiliating and tormenting people. Why should it bother her if this is easy? None of Euron's victories have proven to be the least bit difficult. Has Cersei complained about them? She certainly enjoyed this last execution. She'd enjoy getting rid of Tyrion even more. Then she'd be all the more likely to win the war and engage in further torture. 

 

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12 minutes ago, JLower said:

Sorry, but I'm afraid you missed my point. I didn't ask how Dany's army is going to get to KL. I asked how her people got there, i.e. to the parlay. They came by ship, and they could obviously have been easily killed or captured before they reached shore. Also we have the other matter I alluded to. Tyrion the formerly intelligent dwarf knows about the Iron Fleet, and he knows about the surprise attack that destroyed the Lannister fleet a long time ago. Did he take a whole batch of stupid pills before he accompanied Dany's forces back to Westeros? Why do the Targaryen fleets keep getting smashed and burned by essentially the same dumb "surprise attack"? For that matter, why doesn't Dany or any of dim bulbs she employs as advisers ever even mention Euron in their plans? This especially goes for the Jackass formerly know as Spider. Has the man somehow forgotten the meaning of words like "spy" and "scout"? No one on the Targaryen side ever makes a decent effort to learn the disposition and movements of enemy forces. 

Cersei certainly enjoys humiliating and tormenting people. Why should it bother her if this is easy? None of Euron's victories have proven to be the least bit difficult. Has Cersei complained about them? She certainly enjoyed this last execution. She'd enjoy getting rid of Tyrion even more. Then she'd be all the more likely to win the war and engage in further torture. 

 

Apologies, I read it as how DO they get to KL and thought you meant the remainder of her Army. 

I guess the shipwreck survivors were teleported to KL from the beach they washed up on? Who knows at this point. We’re meant to believe they were right on the shores of KL, I guess.

Dany’s godawful advisors are something I’ve railed against several times. It’s a show issue. Tyrion is suddenly meek and clueless, and Varys has been essentially mute for 2 seasons now. She’s just lost her only truly effective advisor, Jorah, who she kept around despite his obvious and stated desire to bang her. 

Yara has already told them Euron has sided with Cersei, so I guess the showrunner explanation of “dany forgot about his fleet” is as good as any in their minds. 

Cersei likes a personal touch to her torture.  She has despised Tyrion for years and still blames him for Joffreys death, so she doesn’t see any need to rush his demise when she can enjoy it. 

 

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20 minutes ago, JLower said:

She'd enjoy getting rid of Tyrion even more. Then she'd be all the more likely to win the war and engage in further torture. 

 

With how ineffective Tyrion’s been, you could argue her odds of victory increase the longer he keeps breathing.

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Honestly I feel like Cersei is purposefully not killing Tyrion because she wants him to suffer more.  Just having the Mountain kill him or shoot him full of arrows isn't enough.  Now getting someone he thought a friend to kill him, will prove that Tyrion is unlovable before he dies.  Or maybe she wants to do it herself, maybe slip a strangler into his cup during a meeting between the two.  Sadly last time they met didn't work since she wanted to convince Dany she would agree to a truce.  And we see that every time Cersei could kill Tyrion but doesn't he becomes convinced that she is incapable of killing him.

As for Bronn, while him appearing in Winterfell out of nowhere was jarring, I don't see any problem with his character.  While charismatic he only ever cared about himself and money.  So him being willing to kill Jaime and Tyrion unless they outbid Cersei is definitely in character.  As for him saving Jaime last season, it was probably a calculated risk not an act of compassion.  He knew that if he saved Jaime he would be rewarded and the odds were good that he could.

The Hound deciding to go kill the mountain kind of makes sense.  He is very cynical and so seeing everyone immediately go back to the scheming and plotting as soon as the battle was over probably convinced him that he should go back to his old plan as well.  Though I will say I hope everyone who is looking forward to Cleganebowl is looking forward to Arya swooping in and dealing the killing blow to the Mountain.

 

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I don't think the Hound had all that much character development in the show, so... why should it suddenly happen now? Even in the Battle for the Dawn he was hiding behind a wall until he saw Arya in danger. How's that different from season 2/3/4?

Bronn.... People found it entertaining that the character swore a lot, so they kept him around and around and around long after his purpose in the plot had ended. And for a long time they also white washed him as Tyrion's BFF OMG Bromance. Then he became Cersei's lackey for no apparent reason (other than that they had run out of characters) and now he's a ninja or something who can instantly reload a crossbow...?
Now he's gonna make the Bad Pussy into Lady Rosebush. But well, nothing else makes sense, so why should this? And well they also kinda screwed up in that they left several kingdoms without a ruling house. That's how Dorne got their new, shiny off-screen prince, who's epic quest of rising to power in a country that, in the wake of the brain fart with the Sandsnakes, must have been ravaged by civil war, was apparently not interesting enough to be shown on screen. No we needed several episodes of Daenerys and Cersei playing "musical chairs" with castles instead. Who is this Prince anyway? Is it Arianne? Darkstar? Edric Dayne?  Hotpie? Who knows! Anything's possible under the watch of DnD! 

And as to Cersei and her not killing Dany, Tyrion and the others. Well the same as with Bronn. Her storyline hasn't made any sense in years either plus both she and Jon kinda have to fill in for cut characters no matter if it makes sense or not. She blew up the church in a Medieval Society and has no claim to the throne she's sitting on, so there's no logical way that she should even be alive at this point, let alone in any position of power,
All weaponry, numbers of armies and strategic know-how only works at the laws of plot anyway by now (I mean it usually does in stories, but in the show it's kinda blatant and to the detriment of the story by now) so Cersei probably just "forgot" that she had all those ballistas mounted on the walls, just like Daenerys "forgot" about the Iron Fleet and won't remember them until the plot says she will.

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7 hours ago, GOTFanatic said:

The flaw in your reasoning is that nobody else is there to witness this, so killing them isn't going to automatically propagate throughout the kingdom. Also killing them would end the threat to her rule and thus there would be no need to make Dany look more evil.

It won't spread throughout the kingdoms. But Daenerys' allies (the North, Vale, Iron Islands, Dorne and maybe the Reach) will hear about the envoy getting attacked without provocation - they were there to negotiate, not fight. In that situation they would surely decide they enough of the Iron Throne and march against the capital.

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On 5/6/2019 at 1:49 PM, White Walker King said:

Sure, Cersei has no problem doing evil things but taking hopeful shots at what is essentially a diplomatic expedition is bad taste for any leader to do. If you hit Daenarys you win, but if not you might end up looking foolish.

Edit: As for Tyrion, I think the show did make a mistake. For some reason they have swept Tyrion's treason and patricide under the rug. He was a wanted man across all of Westeros, now Cersei hardly even seems to be angry at him.

Cersei is concerned with "bad taste" at this point?  If killing a foreign invader, that you have convinced the commoners to think of as evil, is bad taste, what would blowing up thousands of people in/around the Great Sept of Baelor be considered??  Book Cersei/Show Cersei is only concerned with one thing - Cersei still having a hearbeat.

Secondly, I don't know why Cersei would be angry at Tyrion, he makes all the wrong decisions in her favor, he's practically her greatest ally right now.

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18 hours ago, UnViserion said:

With how ineffective Tyrion’s been, you could argue her odds of victory increase the longer he keeps breathing.

 

18 hours ago, Bran the Shipper said:

Honestly I feel like Cersei is purposefully not killing Tyrion because she wants him to suffer more.  Just having the Mountain kill him or shoot him full of arrows isn't enough.  Now getting someone he thought a friend to kill him, will prove that Tyrion is unlovable before he dies.  Or maybe she wants to do it herself, maybe slip a strangler into his cup during a meeting between the two.  Sadly last time they met didn't work since she wanted to convince Dany she would agree to a truce.  And we see that every time Cersei could kill Tyrion but doesn't he becomes convinced that she is incapable of killing him.

...

 

Yeah, those are decent points. I'm not convinced. I'm not sure Cersei's thinking is that sophisticated. Nevertheless, these arguments are plausible. If your enemy's adviser is screwing up as badly as Tyrion is, you might decide to keep him alive. You'll be more likely to win in the end, then his suffering will be all the worse. 

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18 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

...

And as to Cersei and her not killing Dany, Tyrion and the others. Well the same as with Bronn. Her storyline hasn't made any sense in years either plus both she and Jon kinda have to fill in for cut characters no matter if it makes sense or not. She blew up the church in a Medieval Society and has no claim to the throne she's sitting on, so there's no logical way that she should even be alive at this point, let alone in any position of power,
All weaponry, numbers of armies and strategic know-how only works at the laws of plot anyway by now (I mean it usually does in stories, but in the show it's kinda blatant and to the detriment of the story by now) so Cersei probably just "forgot" that she had all those ballistas mounted on the walls, just like Daenerys "forgot" about the Iron Fleet and won't remember them until the plot says she will.

Some more good points. Indeed, why look for sense in this story any more? Honestly, one of the reasons I still watch GoT is so that I can read posts like this with full enjoyment. I especially like the business about the two great queens just forgetting about things like fleets and ballistas until the plot says they are supposed to remember. I like that better than the concept of Cersei keeping Tyrion alive so he can screw up more. The latter conjecture is still plausible; I just don't like it as much. 

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On 5/9/2019 at 5:21 AM, Orphalesion said:

I
Bronn.... People found it entertaining that the character swore a lot, so they kept him around and around and around long after his purpose in the plot had ended. And for a long time they also white washed him as Tyrion's BFF OMG Bromance. 

I always thought that Bronn was D&D´s alter ego, that he showed openly what fascinates them: Being cynical, greedy, randy, wicked, lecherous, corrupt.

Also he worked as their deus ex machina in difficult writing situations - by rescuing Jamie for instance against all odds in a hopeless situation they wrote him in (confronting Drago). Bronn will probably at the end will be a member of the council that will rule the realm - after D&D have killed each and every of our heroes, "for obvious reasons".

It would be so revealing.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Torienne said:

I always thought that Bronn was D&D´s alter ego, that he showed openly what fascinates them: Being cynical, greedy, randy, wicked, lecherous, corrupt.

Also he worked as their deus ex machina in difficult writing situations - by rescuing Jamie for instance against all odds in a hopeless situation they wrote him in (confronting Drago). Bronn will probably at the end will be a member of the council that will rule the realm - after D&D have killed each and every of our heroes, "for obvious reasons".

It would be so revealing.

So he's their Mary-Sue self-insert wish-fulfillment character? Ha! Love it. :lmao:It makes so much sense.
But yikes...does that mean the Bad Pussy is their Waifu? :ack:

Edited by Orphalesion

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On 5/8/2019 at 9:27 PM, adiman83 said:

It won't spread throughout the kingdoms. But Daenerys' allies (the North, Vale, Iron Islands, Dorne and maybe the Reach) will hear about the envoy getting attacked without provocation - they were there to negotiate, not fight. In that situation they would surely decide they enough of the Iron Throne and march against the capital.

Again your defense of her inaction is nonsensical. What would it matter if those factions hear about what she did? Dany and her allies are already going to march on King's Landing, so it's a moot point. Killing Dany would've been the smartest thing to do, as she would have no more threat of her dragon, and the troops loyal to her would become disorganized and leaderless. 

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