Discussing Jaime and Brienne

[LucyMormont]

1 hour ago, Khal Lhevon said:

It does really annoy me, and I'm surprised it happened. In an old ComicCon panel Gwendolyn Christie (who plays Brienne) said one of the things she really liked about the dynamic between Jaime and Brienne was that there was no love interest, they were just friends. Also given that a big part of Brienne's character is that she is a strong, independent woman, introducing a love interest like they did just cheapens a lot of her character arc. A lot of the stuff in this episode and also especially episode 2 felt like fan service to me. Also it annoys me that they created and then ended this whole thing in a single episode, like a lot of s8, it feels really rushed.

I agree with the rushed part.

But why do you think that strong independent women don't love? She is a strong woman, and also always wanted to love and be loved, that's in her arc too. The first thing we saw from her is how much in love she was with Renly, despite knowing perfectly well that she wouldn't be loved back. 

And I also think it's in Jaime's arc, this is part of his evolution, from that arrogant selfish egotistic man  for whom the exterior appearance was so important, to this more humble man able to see past the good looking and value a person's beauty as a whole. This Jaime is not longer blinded, he knows that his sister's beauty hides a pit of rot, and that behind the no-elegance of Brienne there's a vault of pure gold. 

 

[Kaguya]

Jaime was literally going to stay in the north with Brienne when he was under the impression Dany had the win in the bag. When he was told that Cersei had killed a dragon and captured Missendi, he realised she could win this and become Aerys 2.0 

 

Its very obvious why he left.

[ummester]

I liked it - one of the few things I have liked this season. I liked Brienne's knighting and subsequent vigintiy loss and heart breaking all at Jamies hand.

IMO, it creates a nice level of realistic greyness around Jamie - he knighted her because he honors her and thought that he could achieve an even greater connection by sharing his cock with her. But he couldn't. Love is broken for Jamie - all he has left is redemption via honor and that is fine. That is his character.

Does it ultimately mean that Brienne was used - yes, kind of. But who isn't on their first time? She was innocent enough to fall into it with Jamie - instead of choosing Tormund, who would actually have respected her for a lifetime instead of just trying to gain an emotional leg up.

It's not as well handled but it is touching on the nuanced character motivations we had in earlier seasons. Jamie does respect Brienne, he even honors her - he just can't love her. It's like that Meatloaf song, 2 out of 3.

[a girl knows nothing]

Does anyone think Brienne might follow Jaime down to KL to try and save him? I was considering this as a possibility. Or will she just stay at Winterfell to serve Sansa?

[LadyOlenna]

11 hours ago, Bran the Shipper said:

While I support the Jaime and Brienne romance, I don't like how it was handled.  They hooked them up only to tear them apart.  It came across that Jaime got really drunk and horny.  But when morning came he realized that he didn't want to do that again, and so he had to come up with an excuse to run off because he didn't want to be with Brienne anymore. 

It's worse, but in the same vein, than what they did with the Arya and Gendry pairing.  Which was Arya wanted a booty call and then had to explain to Gendry that she didn't actually want to be with him.

While I agree with you (I wanted Jaime and Brienne to get together, it's been foreshadowed for season, and I hate that he left her like that), I just want to point out that he stayed with her for weeks. Daenerys and company had the time to ride to White Harbor, ship to Dragonstone and then send a raven to Winterfell.

 

[LadyOlenna]

32 minutes ago, Kaguya said:

Jaime was literally going to stay in the north with Brienne when he was under the impression Dany had the win in the bag. When he was told that Cersei had killed a dragon and captured Missendi, he realised she could win this and become Aerys 2.0 

 

Its very obviously why he left.

I hope you're right! It actually wouldn't make sense for Jaime to go to Cersei's rescue just after he learns that Daenerys' forces have been undermined. Also, he recently discovered that his sister wanted him and Tyrion dead.

D&D have said after the episode that Jaime he's going to Cersei because he is addicted to her... of course, they wouldn't want to spoiler their own show, but I'm still afraid of what they could come out with! Hopefully he kills her.

[Gertrude]

I don't really care if Jaime and Brienne are linked romantically, but the way they were written was pretty crap. When Jaime knighted Brienne - that was their perfect, shining moment. It was just all downhill from there. They kept cheapening it until we get the gem of a line "What's she like down there?" I mean, really?

We all want Jaime to be doing the thing where he plans to kill Cersei, but we're all afraid the writing will let us down. That's why I can't get on board the 'well obviously Jaime plans to kill Cersei' train. It's just as plausible that D&D were playing it straight and Jaime can't stay away from his baby.

[ummester]

If Jamie is going to KL to finish the job with Cersie - being afraid that Dany isn't up to the task - why was there that long moment with him looking at Brienne asleep all kind of sad? I think it is as simple as it seems - Jamie still loves Cersie because he has desire for her and not Brienne. That he does not desire Brienne in the same way is why he tells Brienne he is a hateful person, because he hates himself for using Brienne to work out something about himself.

In the earlier scene when Sansa says she wont have the chance to see Cersie executed, she means simply that Dany is now going to reign fire down on KL and there is going to be nothing left of Cersie to execute. Jamie is going to save Cersie - its entirely possibly that Jamie throws down with Arya next episode. Or that Jamie and the Mountain throw down against Arya and the Hound, making the fight somewhat even.

Although it feels kind of disappointing that Jamie still loves Cerise, like regressive for his character, it's also kind of realistic. If you spend half of your life with someone, make children with them and so on, even after a divorce it is not easy to move on. Jamie is like that. He is divorced but he still doesn't want to see his ex torched.

[D2procon]

I see a lot of people talking about how Jaime is just going off back to be with Cersei despite having found something with Brienne.

I think what he said and did is being misinterpreted.

He found love with Brienne, someone who came to love him for who he is as a person with no expectations from him. This in turn causes him to realize just how  evil Cersei is because he now has a completely different side to view from.

It was this that made him decide to go back to kings landing.... but not to be with Cersei.

When he told Brienne the things he has done in order to be with Cersei, he was telling someone he came to realize he can trust with his dark past the fucked up shit he has done to be with her, hes showing her the type of trust you show a lover, but from a very dark place.

When he said "She's hateful, but so am I." I genuinely believe the hatred he was speaking of was directed straight at Cersei. He has done evil things for her, for what he perceived as love, but it wasn't love.

He has now seen love, actual love, and hatred is begotten from love.

Cersei is the source of his evil, and that evil must be elimited.

 

[ummester]

Well, to find out who Jamie actually does love out of Cersie and Brienne, at least I have a reason to watch the last 2 episodes now

[MinscS2]

I didn't like it one bit. This was fanservice done wrong.

Jamie knighting Brienne was the zenith of their relationship. It could never be better than that, and it should've ended there. 

The way they showed in E4 made Jamie come across as drunk and horny, and as someone who took pity on Brienne for still being a virgin.
It felt like the ultimate "payoff" for them sleeping together was so they could have Bronn say "I knew you where fookin her".
Brienne's reaction to Jamie leaving also felt off. 

Nope, this was forced and trash, like the rest of this episode...
 

[House Cambodia]

1 hour ago, ummester said:

If Jamie is going to KL to finish the job with Cersie - being afraid that Dany isn't up to the task - why was there that long moment with him looking at Brienne asleep all kind of sad? I think it is as simple as it seems - Jamie still loves Cersie because he has desire for her and not Brienne. That he does not desire Brienne in the same way is why he tells Brienne he is a hateful person, because he hates himself for using Brienne to work out something about himself.

Although it feels kind of disappointing that Jamie still loves Cerise, like regressive for his character, it's also kind of realistic. If you spend half of your life with someone, make children with them and so on, even after a divorce it is not easy to move on. Jamie is like that. He is divorced but he still doesn't want to see his ex torched.

4

That's exactly right. I'm bemused to see a number of posters interpreting his decision to head for Cercei as a plan to murder her. It seemed utterly unambiguous to me. And amongst a lot of shoddy writing by D&D's team, I have to give credit for the brave move (which has outflanked a lot of these superficial viewers) to have Jamie blow his redemption arc to smithereens for Cercei. I can't remember the exact quote, but Jamie did say one time that he and Cercei are more than just twins and lovers - for him, they are two parts of one body-and-soul. His response is entirely consistent with his character. Of course there will be no kiss-and-make-up scene with Brienne - their sexual relationship was a tacky addition that is quite unnecessary and just put in for some of the fandom elements. Brienne will revert to type and defend Sansa with her life.

[Ranger Kragin]

12 hours ago, Red Dragon10 said:

It was more than one night, IMO.  There was the night they for sure slept together, and then the armies left during the day and it was said that Jaime was going to stay at Winterfell.  Then another night, and it shows Brienne in bed, naked again, and Jaime sitting at the end of the bed, thinking, and then he leaves.  

Since he intended to stay in Winterfell - clearly for Brienne (and everyone knew it) - its safe to say that he didn't just get drunk and horny.  This has been a long time coming.  

That said, even though I know this isn't a story with happy endings, it did feel a little shoehorned in to me, to have it in the episode and then of course he has to leave on some mission...   I think, as with a lot of things that are happening, it feels rushed and squeezed in.  

I'm not totally clear on why he is going back to Cersei, but my guess is it's to kill her.  I do think he still has love for her, but not (anymore) the way he loves Brienne.  I think he has looked at Brienne with love for a long time, but for a long time Cersei was in the way for him.  I think he'll die in KL and Brienne knew it. 

Exactly.

Two things happened after his decision to stay with Brienne that dictated his following actions:

a) Bronn coming to kill him and Tyrion on his sister's command

b) The news that Dany lost one more dragon and her ships and Cersei has an hostage

Only then he understands that he cannot change her sister, she will always send assassins to kill him, no matter where he goes, and this makes Brienne a target, too.

When he tells her goodbye, please just look again at his face and his eyes. He can hardly speak, his eyes are teary. He's dead serious but with no cruelty. If he had meant to be cruel, he would have insulted her (as she reminds him in Ep2). I suspect that her crying is not because of a broken heart, but because she understands his choice and cannot help him. She has seen the worst that he is and still can look right through him. She has always been able to see the best of him, and this time is no different. She knows he'll probably lose his life in the attempt. That will be his last redeeming act and worth to be written in the Book of the Knights

Even Bran seems to protect him from a just punishment because of something else he must accomplish. The great war is over, he's still alive. There's something else waiting for him.

Then again, this is GOT, bad writing is known. Anything nonsensical can happen.

[Kaguya]

3 hours ago, ummester said:

If Jamie is going to KL to finish the job with Cersie - being afraid that Dany isn't up to the task - why was there that long moment with him looking at Brienne asleep all kind of sad? I think it is as simple as it seems - Jamie still loves Cersie because he has desire for her and not Brienne. That he does not desire Brienne in the same way is why he tells Brienne he is a hateful person, because he hates himself for using Brienne to work out something about himself.

In the earlier scene when Sansa says she wont have the chance to see Cersie executed, she means simply that Dany is now going to reign fire down on KL and there is going to be nothing left of Cersie to execute. Jamie is going to save Cersie - its entirely possibly that Jamie throws down with Arya next episode. Or that Jamie and the Mountain throw down against Arya and the Hound, making the fight somewhat even.

Although it feels kind of disappointing that Jamie still loves Cerise, like regressive for his character, it's also kind of realistic. If you spend half of your life with someone, make children with them and so on, even after a divorce it is not easy to move on. Jamie is like that. He is divorced but he still doesn't want to see his ex torched.

Still doesn’t explain why he was going to commit to living in the north, only to quickly change his mind when hearing Cersei had advanced tremendously on the field. He’s not going to protect Cersei - he’s going to protect everyone else.

[Snormund]

15 hours ago, Bran the Shipper said:

While I support the Jaime and Brienne romance, I don't like how it was handled.  They hooked them up only to tear them apart.  It came across that Jaime got really drunk and horny.  But when morning came he realized that he didn't want to do that again, and so he had to come up with an excuse to run off because he didn't want to be with Brienne anymore. 

It's worse, but in the same vein, than what they did with the Arya and Gendry pairing.  Which was Arya wanted a booty call and then had to explain to Gendry that she didn't actually want to be with him.

Except Jaime clearly had sex with her more than once and was planning to stay with her until the plot suddenly demanded otherwise. 

[Radish Knight]

It was pretty unnecessary imo, but I think both of their actors are great, and they have good chemistry with each other, so they made it work.
Brienne crying over Jaime leaving was pretty heartbreaking.

[Ranger Kragin]

5 hours ago, a girl knows nothing said:

Does anyone think Brienne might follow Jaime down to KL to try and save him? I was considering this as a possibility. Or will she just stay at Winterfell to serve Sansa?

Definitely follow him to KL. If I am not mistaken, she understands perfectly what he wants to do and will try to help him to kill Cersei and save his life.

He, on the other end, needs accomplish the Valoquar prophecy, die together with Cersei in the attempt and, at the same time, die in the arms of Brienne.

[Danelle]

10 hours ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

I think Jamie has been realizing it for a long time. He has been slipping away from Cersei in increments. Bronn showing up was proof that Cersei hadn't given up on her promise to kill him if he left and he knows she won't give up once she made up her mind. 

It is the culmination of a lot of hinting for many seasons and then yes, they messed it up by rushing it. Jamie finally allowing himself to experience his feelings for Brienne, a woman his vanity never would endure, helped him to care more about the negative impact of Cersei. Jamie had to totally let go of his selfishness and vanity to care for Brienne and don't take his assholishness at the end as proof of the contrary. He did that because it was believable and to prevent Brienne from following him to help. Until that moment I figured Brienne was as good as dead by the end of the series and now I think she is most likely going to live.

I agree.

Brienne would be in grave danger if Cersei found out about their affair.

Let us recall the time when Cersei directly confronted Brienne during the PW in regards to her feelings for Jaime.

[Kajjo]

12 hours ago, Aderyn said:

They succumbed to a very basic cliché where two characters of the opposite gender cannot be close and loyal and mutually respect each other unless they also develop an explicitly romantic relationship.

It's a movie cliche, yes, but it is not unknown in the real world. It became a cliche because it happens so often in the real world, too.

18 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

o how do you guys feel about the relationship between Jaime and Brienne after this episode?

I always predicted this will happen and I am glad it did. Brienne and Jamie fits and ther was so much foreshadowing since early seasons, this is just fine with me.

However, as many things in S8, this was a little rushed and Tyrion's stupid game question was a bad introduction for it. I would have preferred to play out differently.

I sincerely hope they have a future and Jamie won't die. I expect him to die, though.

10 hours ago, Nightwish said:

Why did Jamie talked to her in this way? He knew that this was going to break her heart. He believes that he is not going to come back I guess. He intends to kill Cersei and probably believes that this will be the end of him so he tries to distance her so she doesn’t risk her life trying to help him. That’s the only possible explanation I can think of. 

I agree, I think so, too. 

[Nerevanin]

I'm not sure why so many people think that Brienne + Jaime is just a kind of fan service quickly invented by D&D. There have been hints about their future romantic relationship as far back as S3 or so. Brienne has been in love with him for a long time. Jaime too. And it is true for the books as well. As I said, I expected their first night together to happen much earlier. Imo if they were the making out couple prior to the battle instead of Arya and Gendry, it would be almost perfect.

19 hours ago, a girl knows nothing said:

I don't think Brienne is going to be pregnant, or at least I sincerely hope she's not. I mean how many pregnancies (or suspected pregnancies) can one show support! 

On the contrary. There are tons of female characters on the show and women sometimes do get pregnant after sex. But in fact there were unbelievably few pregnancies during the whole story. Let's count them: 1. Daenerys in S1. 2. Robb's wife (no, I don't remember her name) in the show, there are speculation that his wife might be pregnant in the books too, but no confirmation so far. 3. Cersei currently (maybe). 4. Gilly currently (but really, who cares about Gilly?). Anyone else (no, shadowbabies don't count)?

 

19 hours ago, btfu806 said:

Why does Brianne even need a love interest? She is a strong, independent woman who loved Renley and is now focused on being the best knight in the seven kingdoms. The whole love interest felt so forced. They should have stayed as knights who respected each other.

 

14 hours ago, Khal Lhevon said:

It does really annoy me, and I'm surprised it happened. In an old ComicCon panel Gwendolyn Christie (who plays Brienne) said one of the things she really liked about the dynamic between Jaime and Brienne was that there was no love interest, they were just friends. Also given that a big part of Brienne's character is that she is a strong, independent woman, introducing a love interest like they did just cheapens a lot of her character arc. A lot of the stuff in this episode and also especially episode 2 felt like fan service to me. Also it annoys me that they created and then ended this whole thing in a single episode, like a lot of s8, it feels really rushed.

I would like to remind you that Jaime is not the first love interest of Brienne. She was in love with Renly. In the books she was pretty much in love with her first fiancé, who sadly died before they got married. Now she loves Jaime. I'm not sure why she can't be a strong woman and in love at the same time.

8 hours ago, a girl knows nothing said:

Does anyone think Brienne might follow Jaime down to KL to try and save him? I was considering this as a possibility. Or will she just stay at Winterfell to serve Sansa?

Hard to say. I think that she will stay with Sansa but in this show it is very possible that she will go to KL instead.

 

6 hours ago, ummester said:

Well, to find out who Jamie actually does love out of Cersie and Brienne, at least I have a reason to watch the last 2 episodes now

I think that he loves both of them. With Brienne, it is more or less pure love. With Cersei, it is a very complicated love-hate relationship.