Discussing Jaime and Brienne

[Stark_in_Winterfell]

7 hours ago, Danelle said:

I agree.

Brienne would be in grave danger if Cersei found out about their affair.

Let us recall the time when Cersei directly confronted Brienne during the PW in regards to her feelings for Jaime.

Oh sure. To be fair, I didn't think the tv show was going to follow through on this tension build up. I expected them to use it in some heroic death scene between them and their unconsummated twitterpation for each other. I forget, they don't even know each other in the books, right? So this is all HBO?

[Stark_in_Winterfell]

23 hours ago, MarieAntoinette said:

I don't know what the showrunners were going for. If it turns out that Jaime is on a suicide mission to kill Cersei, then I guess that it was alright that he wanted one last night with Brienne before he dies. But the way this was handled gives the impression that Jaime after sex was like: Nope, this is not enough, it is still Cersei for me, we are both awful people and belong together, and this indeed pretty awkward and I feel sorry for Brienne, and would have prefered for them to part as friends.

With most other characters that would make sense. But Jamie said way back in season 2 I think that Cersei was the only woman he had ever and would ever have sex with. He waited for a very long time when he was a prisoner and then she rejected him when he made it back. Remember Joffery's funeral? So he always had a chance to have sex with other women and didn't. That's why he wasn't using Brienne just for pleasure and Tyrion's teasing was only a nudge to do something that he wanted to do.

I think character arc wise, they are making it an indication that he has completely divorced himself of love and loyalty for Cersei. and that he actually has a desire to do another thing that is not completely selfish, and that is to kill Cersei. Jamie was the vainest man in the whole 7 kingdoms. He relished Cersei's evil. He bragged about it. He saw no one else worthy of his attraction, desire, love. Add to that he also had his ego wrapped up in being a skilled knight. Everything he lost, from his dominant hand, his father, to his children to his place at Cersei's side, pushed him away from his vanity.

Brienne is someone that bested him, had more honor than him, earned his admiration and eventually his love. Weirdly. I hate making him out to be so likable. But he is. That scene sealed his transformation. Jamie always had honorable tendencies, but they were misaligned toward his vanity and his families vanity. He is going to rid the world of Cersei and he expects to die doing so. Brienne and Tyrion are the only two people in the 7 kingdoms that loves Jamie Lannister.

[Danelle]

13 hours ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

Oh sure. To be fair, I didn't think the tv show was going to follow through on this tension build up. I expected them to use it in some heroic death scene between them and their unconsummated twitterpation for each other. I forget, they don't even know each other in the books, right? So this is all HBO?

If you rewatch their first scenes in s2 and s3, I mean between Jaime and Brienne, the tv series was clearly implying that there was erotic tension between them. In the books it is not what is said but rather was was described, especially in the duel between them there was clearly a foreshadowing of an intimate relationship.

In regards to Cersei and Brienne in the tv series they only have this scene together I believe.

Spoiler

Whereas in the books Jaime is too busy saving Brienne to attend Joffrey's wedding and she is locked once they arrive in KL, mainly to be protected from Loras. Cersei much later once imprisoned she refuses to believe that Jaime would leave her for Brienne. Ironically her attitude in the books mirrors Loras's comments about Renly's feelings towards Brienne. 

 

[Stark_in_Winterfell]

12 hours ago, Danelle said:

If you rewatch their first scenes in s2 and s3, I mean between Jaime and Brienne, the tv series was clearly implying that there was erotic tension between them. In the books it is not what is said but rather was was described, especially in the duel between them there was clearly a foreshadowing of an intimate relationship.

In regards to Cersei and Brienne in the tv series they only have this scene together I believe.

  Reveal hidden contents

Whereas in the books Jaime is too busy saving Brienne to attend Joffrey's wedding and she is locked once they arrive in KL, mainly to be protected from Loras. Cersei much later once imprisoned she refuses to believe that Jaime would leave her for Brienne. Ironically her attitude in the books mirrors Loras's comments about Renly's feelings towards Brienne. 

 

I didn’t miss that. I just didn’t expect them to follow through. Idk. I gotta be skeptical somewhere. It’s the king slayer.

[Lordsteve666]

Would have been far better to just keep the two of them close enough to have the occasional awkward moment of closeness but never actually have anything happen between them. 

They clearly respected each other as warriors and had been through all manner of shit together, there was a bond there I guess. But it didn't need to be so IN YOUR FACE like it was in this episode. They should have left it as an open plot that never gets answered, let the viewers decide if they hook up or not and why; assuming they both survived to  the end of the show.

[LucyMormont]

On 5/7/2019 at 1:09 PM, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

I think character arc wise, they are making it an indication that he has completely divorced himself of love and loyalty for Cersei. and that he actually has a desire to do another thing that is not completely selfish, and that is to kill Cersei.

I think that character arc wise, they messed up Jaime when they made him stay with Cersei the whole season 7 for... plot reasons? He should have divorced himself of love and loyalty for Cersei way before he did. 

Even the actor said so,more or less. I stumbled some time ago upon a YT video that I can't find right now, where he says that when he read the script of what Cersei did in the Sept, also causing Tommen commiting suicide, he though that obviously Jaime would ACT, there's no way Jaime would  give that a pass. And then he was kind of "What?" when he read the scripts for season 7, that he even discussed with D&D, and that they said that this would come,  he'd have to wait till the end of the season. 

But NOW, what I think that is not completely in character, is that as far as he knows, she is carrying his son. Would he bring himself to kill his own son too? I don't know. 

And I think that character wise, this would potentially be an issue also for Arya. She is a ruthless killer, but she has also been portrayed as not willing to kill innocents.

[Ranger Kragin]

1 hour ago, Lordsteve666 said:

They should have left it as an open plot that never gets answered, let the viewers decide if they hook up or not and why; assuming they both survived to  the end of the show.

Honestly? No.

Their development from enemy-to-lovers trope was not simply “hinted at”, it wasn’t even subtle, but quite open. From season2 right to the last episode it was clear where it would end. Just leaving it unresolved, or “open to imagination” would have been bad writing and this show has enough bad writing already. 

If anything, the love scene deserved more time. It was clearly hurried up, like so many other things, unfortunately. The chemistry between Jaime and Brienne deserved more attention.

[Stark_in_Winterfell]

5 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

I think that character arc wise, they messed up Jaime when they made him stay with Cersei the whole season 7 for... plot reasons? He should have divorced himself of love and loyalty for Cersei way before he did. 

Even the actor said so,more or less. I stumbled some time ago upon a YT video that I can't find right now, where he says that when he read the script of what Cersei did in the Sept, also causing Tommen commiting suicide, he though that obviously Jaime would ACT, there's no way Jaime would  give that a pass. And then he was kind of "What?" when he read the scripts for season 7, that he even discussed with D&D, and that they said that this would come,  he'd have to wait till the end of the season. 

But NOW, what I think that is not completely in character, is that as far as he knows, she is carrying his son. Would he bring himself to kill his own son too? I don't know. 

And I think that character wise, this would potentially be an issue also for Arya. She is a ruthless killer, but she has also been portrayed as not willing to kill innocents.

I agree on the timing of his leaving being off. That's an excellent point about his child and his willingness to kill Cersei while she is carrying  her or him. 

[Ranger Kragin]

6 minutes ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

I agree on the timing of his leaving being off. That's an excellent point about his child and his willingness to kill Cersei while she is carrying  her or him. 

Perhaps this is what he’s referring to when he tells Brienne that he’s as hateful as his sister.

If indeed he’s gone to kill his sister, pregnant with his child, his deed is, as a matter of fact, hateful. He knows it, Brienne doesn’t. He adds one more hateful act to his list. Then his goodbye speech makes perfect sense to me.

[the red god]

the romantic/sexual tension between the two characters seemed very much one-sided, especially in the books (brienne is exceptionally ugly and shy in the books). it seemed like a forced fan service that virtually no one was asking for. 

[Stark_in_Winterfell]

On 5/6/2019 at 5:00 PM, Nerevanin said:

So how do you guys feel about the relationship between Jaime and Brienne after this episode?

I personally predicted long ago that they would fall in love and that they would end up at this point eventually (although I personally expected it to happen earlier) and I always rooted for Brienne+Jaime to actually happen, so I'm happy. I like that and imo it doesn't felt forced or anything. My next prediction is that Jaime will die and Brienne will find out she is pregnant (in fact I predicted Jaime to die and Brienne to have his child a long ago too).

The only thing I'm not happy about is that the progress in their relationship (read as: they had sex) was mostly caused by Tyrion's stupid joke.

I think they took too long getting here. But it is good. I like it. I hope this doesn't sound weird but I really liked how vulnerable Brienne was. It would have made more sense for them to have more time. I loved Gwendolyn Christie's acting here, and Nikolai Coster-Waldau's too. Jamie made an enormous change in polarity, maybe the most changed by choice character in the series and that transformation is getting short changed on screen.

[Ranger Kragin]

5 minutes ago, the red god said:

the romantic/sexual tension between the two characters seemed very much one-sided, especially in the books (brienne is exceptionally ugly and shy in the books). it seemed like a forced fan service that virtually no one was asking for. 

In the books he has an erection when he sees her naked in the baths of Harrenhal. He notices again and again how beautiful her eyes are, not pretty, beautiful. It’d quote the books if I had them with me. 

Their sword fighting is a dance that becomes a sexual innuendo.

Their attraction is mutual in the books. There’s no denying that. Some of the most lyrical descriptions of GRRM. Despite her ugliness, Jaime is able to look beyond, just as she seems able to see the best part of him, beyond the surface. That’s the core of their dynamics.

[the red god]

15 minutes ago, Ranger Kragin said:

In the books he has an erection when he sees her naked in the baths of Harrenhal. He notices again and again how beautiful her eyes are, not pretty, beautiful. It’d quote the books if I had them with me. 

Their sword fighting is a dance that becomes a sexual innuendo.

Their attraction is mutual in the books. There’s no denying that. Some of the most lyrical descriptions of GRRM. Despite her ugliness, Jaime is able to look beyond, just as she seems able to see the best part of him, beyond the surface. That’s the core of their dynamics.

damn, really? i guess i've just been focused on other books/comics/etc and those details got squeezed out of the ol' noggin. 

[Ranger Kragin]

10 hours ago, the red god said:

damn, really? i guess i've just been focused on other books/comics/etc and those details got squeezed out of the ol' noggin. 

I retreived my books:

The Bath at Harrenhall (ASOS 37/Jaime V)

Quote

She jerked to her feet as if he’d struck her, sending a wash of hot water across the tub. Jaime caught a glimpse of the thick blonde bush at the juncture of her thighs as she climbed out. She was much hairier than his sister. Absurdly, he felt his cock stir beneath the bathwater. Now I know I have been too long away from Cersei. He averted his eyes, troubled by his body’s response. “That was unworthy,” he mumbled. “I’m a maimed man, and bitter. Forgive me, wench. You protected me as well as any man could have, and better than most.”

He denies his attraction and dismiss it as longing for Cersei, but, a few minutes after, when he faints in the bath:

Quote

"Brienne caught him before he could fall. Her arm was all gooseflesh...but she was strong, and gentler than he would have thought. Gentler than Cersei," 

Jaime observing Brienne's eyes: (ASOS 72/Jaime IX)

Quote

“Blue is a good color on you, my lady,” Jaime observed. “It goes well with your eyes.” She does have astonishing eyes. 

You may remeber the armor he gave her is blue(ish)

The fight (ASOS 21/Jaime III):

Quote

“Give me the sword, Kingslayer.”

 “Oh, I will.” He sprang to his feet and drove at her, the longsword alive in his hands. Brienne jumped back, parrying, but he followed, pressing the attack. No sooner did she turn one cut than the next was upon her. The swords kissed and sprang apart and kissed again. Jaime’s blood was singing...

The dance went on. He pinned her against an oak, cursed as she slipped away...Steel rang, steel sang, steel screamed and sparked and scraped, and the woman started grunting like a sow at every crash, yet somehow he could not reach her.

 [Jaime] laughed a ragged, breathless laugh. “Come on, come on, my sweetling, the music’s still playing. Might I have this dance, my lady?”

and, masterpiece from GRRM, Jaime takes Brienne’s virginity… metaphorically. Anticipating S08Ep04:

Quote

..As he felt himself falling, he twisted the mischance into a diving lunge. His point scraped past her parry and bit into her upper thigh. A red flower blossomed, and Jaime had an instant to savor the sight of her blood before his knee slammed into a rock. 

Jaime drove his shoulder into her legs, bringing her down on top of him. They rolled, kicking and punching until finally she was sitting astride him.

Brienne lurched to her feet. She was all mud and blood below the waist, her clothing askew, her face red. She looks as if they caught us fucking instead of fighting..

All from Jaime's perspective.

There's more but I stop here. I don't think there's any doubt about Jaime's feelings towards Brienne in the books. In the shows we have these long eye contact/lingering, charged with unsaid words. Eyes always searching the other and knowing exactly where to find them.

[ummester]

11 hours ago, Ranger Kragin said:

Their attraction is mutual in the books. There’s no denying that. Some of the most lyrical descriptions of GRRM. Despite her ugliness, Jaime is able to look beyond, just as she seems able to see the best part of him, beyond the surface. That’s the core of their dynamics.

Yes but that doesn't mean he can live with it. I still take it in the show as Jamie basically admitting to himself that he could never truly desire Brienne, no matter how much he found her beautiful out of respect for her character. That is why he called himself a hateful person.  Deep down he is vain and Cersie is better looking - he can't change what he is, no matter how much he wants to.

[Ranger Kragin]

4 minutes ago, ummester said:

Yes but that doesn't mean he can live with it. I still take it in the show as Jamie basically admitting to himself that he could never truly desire Brienne, no matter how much he found her beautiful out of respect for her character. That is why he called himself a hateful person.  Deep down he is vain and Cersie is better looking - he can't change what he is, no matter how much he wants to.

There are other reasons why he calls himself a hateful person, and they are equally valid.

He doesn't say he cannot truly desire Brienne. Do not forget that the goodbye scene is from Brienne's perspective: She sees herself ugly and thinks she cannot compete with another woman, let alone someone like Cersei. 

We do not hear Jaime's POV about what happened with Brienne, except as a reflection in Tyrion's words: "I'm happy thay you are happy". Remember? Short before Bronn comes in to tell them he's has been charged to kill both. So he must have told Tyrion that he was happy and decided to stay with her in the North. Except, all his plans go south the moment he hears the news from Bronn and Sansa about Dany's fleet and slaughtered dragon.

It is hateful to kill a pregnant woman. But he has to do it to save them both. It is hateful to hurt Brienne to prevent her to follow him. He hates himself for that. He does hateful things for love, it is known.

Sansa's words: "I had hoped to see her execution but I will not have the privilege" triggered something in him and I tell you what I believe it is:

1) She may win the war after all (this is what Sansa fears)

2) Even if she loses: probably they cannot execute a pregnant woman. I am not sure it has been openy written in the books but it was definitely law in feudal Europe, where the books are based on.

Postponing the execution may give Cersei enough time to buy her freedom somehow. Not good enough for Jaime.

[ummester]

7 minutes ago, Ranger Kragin said:

There are other reasons why he calls himself a hateful person, and they are equally valid.

He doesn't say he cannot truly desire Brienne. Do not forget that the goodbye scene is from Brienne's perspective: She sees herself ugly and thinks she cannot compete with another woman, let alone someone like Cersei. 

We do not hear Jaime's POV about what happened with Brienne, except as a reflection in Tyrion's words: "I'm happy thay you are happy". Remember? Short before Bronn comes in to tell them he's has been charged to kill both. So he must have told Tyrion that he was happy and decided to stay with her in the North. Except, all his plans go south the moment he hears the news from Bronn and Sansa about Dany's fleet and slaughtered dragon.

It is hateful to kill a pregnant woman. But he has to do it to save them both. It is hateful to hurt Brienne to prevent her to follow him. He hates himself for that. He does hateful things for love, it is known.

Sansa's words: "I had hoped to see her execution but I will not have the privilege" triggered something in him and I tell you what I believe it is:

1) She may win the war after all (this is what Sansa fears)

2) Even if she loses: probably they cannot execute a pregnant woman. I am not sure it has been openy written in the books but it was definitely law in feudal Europe, where the books are based on.

Postponing the execution may give Cersei enough time to buy her freedom somehow. Not good enough for Jaime.

Of course, it is open to interpretation but I consider that when Sansa said "I had hoped to see her execution but I will not have the privilege" she meant that Dany is now going to burn Cersie to a crisp and there will be nothing left to see.

I also consider, way back in season 1, where Jamie said "I don't care what other people think."

And Tywin said, "That is what you want other people to think," It was very telling of Jamies character.

Jamie is preoccupied with what other people think of him, so much so that he is trying to become a better person because of it. I wanted something better for Jamie and I could be totally wrong, but I think he went on a journey trying to beat his vanity only to embrace it at the end. Kind of like Arya still being the same person she was at the start, even though she has also tried to change so much. Part of the bittersweet ending could be like that tale about the Scorpion that stings the frog - it can't help being a scorpion.

All this said, it's not like the show is doing a great storytelling job, so anything is possible. I am just leaning more towards a lot of tragedy on the horizon now.

[Ranger Kragin]

1 minute ago, ummester said:

All this said, it's not like the show is doing a great storytelling job, so anything is possible. I am just leaning more towards a lot of tragedy on the horizon now.

This^ I totally agree with you. They're giving  us a tragedy, or they ignore the meaning of "bittersweet", which is a possibility.

I do not expect a HEA for Jaime and Brienne, but to literally spit in the face of Jaime's arc, I don't think they would be that dumb. They managed to give Theon a pretty decent redemption arc, after all. His death was glorious. And so will be Jaime's, I am afraid. Killing his sister.

Sansa's fear is that Dany is losing, so Jon will be in danger and there won't be any other execution than Jon's, perhaps. Trust me on this.

[Nerevanin]

12 hours ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

I think they took too long getting here. But it is good. I like it. I hope this doesn't sound weird but I really liked how vulnerable Brienne was. It would have made more sense for them to have more time. I loved Gwendolyn Christie's acting here, and Nikolai Coster-Waldau's too. Jamie made an enormous change in polarity, maybe the most changed by choice character in the series and that transformation is getting short changed on screen.

Definitely. It's funny how GRRM originally planned him to be one of the biggest villains of the story but eventually Jaime started his redemption as soon as book 2 / season 2 and now I would go as far as saying that he is one of the most heroic characters in the story (although there are some flaws ofc).

[House Cambodia]

57 minutes ago, ummester said:

Part of the bittersweet ending could be like that tale about the Scorpion that stings the frog - it can't help being a scorpion.

Well said. Theon had a genuine redemption arc. It would be too sickly and anti-GRRM to give all the leads the same redemption. For the sake of art, we need some ambiguous characters, some who divide fandom and I think Jamie along with Dany will provide ideal examples.